Too Transform

[Ice9]

Re: Too Transform

 

I'm a bit surprised that people against transform are using EDM to replace it, that thing is the king of "dark matter" powers.

 

Other methods to transform people are well and good, but I haven't seen a good replacement for Transforming objects. And furthermore, SFX only goes so far. Transform is useful when you want to actually change something, with all the appropriate results, and not get into arguments over whether you can actually benefit from X when it's just the SFX of Y. And barring a "Creation" power, it's the only way to actually create things that aren't barriers.

 

Also, many of the methods used to replace Transform have their own dark matter lurking within them. For instance, the "Target is not actually dead, will come back in 30 days" limitation on RKA. Is that really a limitation? Seems like it might often be an advantage. And it seems like a pretty big modification to the power for a custom limitation - can we eliminate Healing by adding an "is actually Healing, not Aid" modifier to Aid?

[Phil]

Re: Too Transform

 

Other methods to transform people are well and good' date=' but I haven't seen a good replacement for Transforming objects. [/quote']I think that's a good point. From a personal PoV, I've got far fewer problems with this. My issue with transform is when it's achieving game mechanical effects that can be done through the powers system, frequently through transforming characters. Objects is certainly another case entirely, but even there I'd stress that nature of change inherent in Transform, rather than destruction (KA/Drain) or improvement (Aid).

[AmadanNaBriona]

Re: Too Transform

 

I'm in the opposite camp entirely, in that I quite like and enjoy the simple way Transform now handles things that used to require rather convoluted power builds.

 

Although I do miss some of the original Champions III modifiers.

[Duke Bushido]

Re: Too Transform

 

Almost forgot!

 

the description of the original write-up for Transformation Attack:

 

"The character may change the target in any _one_ way...."

 

 

I'm a bit surprised that people against transform are using EDM to replace it' date=' that thing is the [b']king[/b] of "dark matter" powers.

 

 

Transform, EDM, Desolidification:

 

The Trifecta of Cobble.

 

 

 

Although I do miss some of the original Champions III modifiers.

 

So keep on usin' 'em

 

Here ya go:

 

 

Transformation Attack Cost:

1D6 all-or-nothing for 15 points, works versus Power Defense. +1/2 Advantage for doing 1 STUN per BODY, +1 Advantage for a 1D6-1 STUN multiplier. Range is 5x points. Minimum cost is 15 points.

 

You'll probably want to rework the costing or something to bring it in line

[PhilFleischmann]

Re: Too Transform

 

I'm a bit surprised that people against transform are using EDM to replace it' date=' that thing is the [b']king[/b] of "dark matter" powers.

King? I'd call it more like the court jester of "dark matter" powers. It's a joke the way some people try to twist it to fit what they can't figure out how to build (or try to build for much cheaper that it should cost).

 

I've said this before, but I'll explain it again: The M in EDM stands for "Movement" - you *MOVE* to another dimension. It does not *CREATE* a dimension to your specifications and then put you there. With a bajillion levels of MegaScale Teleport, I can teleport anywhere in the universe - but only to locations that actually exist. I can't teleport to Shangri-La or Fairyland. EDM can only take you to dimensions that exist - and there's no reason to assume that any dimension you can conceive of exists, no matter how much you'd like it to exist, no matter how convenient it would be to you for it to exist.

 

I would not miss it one bit if people stopped making the dumb claim that EDM is a "do anything" power, because all you have to do is move to the dimension where the thing you want is true. It's a lame idea, and not justified in any way by the rules.

 

And for the sake of argument, let's say you could just go to any universe you can imaging where things are as you want them to be. Suppose Doctor Happykitty is getting close to his goal of enslaving the world. People are dying all over and there's misery and suffering due to his ultimate evil. You decide to "defeat" him with your "EDM to a dimension just like this one, but Doctor Happykitty never existed". Well, goody for you! You've just abandoned all the people of this universe to save your own skin. You haven't defeated anyone, you've simply run away.

[Sean Waters]

Re: Too Transform

 

I'm a bit surprised that people against transform are using EDM to replace it' date=' that thing is the [b']king[/b] of "dark matter" powers.

 

..............

 

I mentioned using EDM UAA to get rid of an opponent temporarily and replace him with a loyal summoned creature, but I do not see that as a problem - EDM is a movement power, as PhilFleischmann says - using it as a movement power is not a problem in my book. Using it to change reality here and now is.

 

Well, it is probably still a bit dodgy, putting someone into a 'stasis dimension': you should probably move them somewhere else, but it is a relatively minor abuse.

 

I'm not saying Transform is easy to replace - in fact i'm not even saying Transform should be replaces. I am saying that Transform does too much.

 

I have no real problem with Transform changing any property that is 'sfx' - changing a 'corpse' to a 'stone statue' - no worries. I do have a problem with Transform increasing or decreasing character point powers - we have powers to do that - no need for overlap.

 

That probably means that we would not need the 15 point version of Transform any more - everything would probably be cosmetic or minor, although we might change those labels to 'surface' (5 points) and 'complete' (10 points)

[IndianaJoe3]

Re: Too Transform

 

I would not miss it one bit if people stopped making the dumb claim that EDM is a "do anything" power' date=' because all you have to do is move to the dimension where the thing you want is true. It's a lame idea, and not justified in any way by the rules.[/quote']

 

The rules do explicitly justify that interpretation, and have since 5e (maybe 4e, but I don't have time to check). I agree that EDM, UAA can create some particularly stinky bits of cheese. It's the GM's business to toss out abusive power constructs.

[Sean Waters]

Re: Too Transform

 

The rules do explicitly justify that interpretation' date=' and have since 5e (maybe 4e, but I don't have time to check). I agree that EDM, UAA can create some particularly stinky bits of cheese. It's the GM's business to toss out abusive power constructs.[/quote']

 

You're right, but then it depends how you interpret the rules.

 

Say the team is fighting Biogobble, the insane giant life eating robot turkey. Biogobble is winning. They know that Biogobble is particularly vulnerable to Cranberry Sauce, but, unfortunately they do not have any.

 

Fortunately the Gene Genie has an EDM 'wish' power, and and uses it to create a huge bowl of Cranberry Sauce. Shortly thereafter Biogobble is roasting in a gas over at 220 F for (let's see, 2 hours plus 1/2 hour per 2 pounds...) 2637 years.

 

At least that is what happens from Gene Genie's point of view.

 

From the point of view of the rest of the team, they are fighting Biogobble, and losing, when suddenly Gene Genie shouts 'By the Power of the Efreet, Bring the Sauce to me!' and vanishes, having gone to a dimension where there was a handy giant bowl of Cranberry Sauce near the fight. He might or might not be replaced by the (extremely disgruntled) Gene Genie from THAT dimension, who was confident, until a moment ago, of an early bath. Soon they are all turkey food.

 

The point is that EDM is a movement power. It moves you to another dimension. With the right advantages you can send someone to another dimension or you can move a lot of people to another dimension. The 'wish' thing assumes an infinite number of other dimensions where every possibility is realised - but that may not fit your GM's cosmology. The thing is, for Gene Genie to get to a dimesnion where he has the means to defeat his foe HE HAS TO LEAVE THIS ONE.

 

So, not a big fan of that particular manifestation of the power, to be honest with you, even if the rules do suggest it..

[Hugh Neilson]

Re: Too Transform

 

You're right, but then it depends how you interpret the rules.

 

Say the team is fighting Biogobble, the insane giant life eating robot turkey. Biogobble is winning. They know that Biogobble is particularly vulnerable to Cranberry Sauce, but, unfortunately they do not have any.

 

Fortunately the Gene Genie has an EDM 'wish' power, and and uses it to create a huge bowl of Cranberry Sauce. Shortly thereafter Biogobble is roasting in a gas over at 220 F for (let's see, 2 hours plus 1/2 hour per 2 pounds...) 2637 years.

 

At least that is what happens from Gene Genie's point of view.

 

From the point of view of the rest of the team, they are fighting Biogobble, and losing, when suddenly Gene Genie shouts 'By the Power of the Efreet, Bring the Sauce to me!' and vanishes, having gone to a dimension where there was a handy giant bowl of Cranberry Sauce near the fight. He might or might not be replaced by the (extremely disgruntled) Gene Genie from THAT dimension, who was confident, until a moment ago, of an early bath. Soon they are all turkey food.

 

The point is that EDM is a movement power. It moves you to another dimension. With the right advantages you can send someone to another dimension or you can move a lot of people to another dimension. The 'wish' thing assumes an infinite number of other dimensions where every possibility is realised - but that may not fit your GM's cosmology. The thing is, for Gene Genie to get to a dimesnion where he has the means to defeat his foe HE HAS TO LEAVE THIS ONE.

 

As you say, it depends on how you interpret the rules. If you interpret the rules that the "wish" version of EDM has the SFX of the character's wish being granted - that is, the special effect of EDM is to superimpose the desired version of reality over the current version of realtity - then there is a giant bowl of cranberry sauce when previously there was none. Gene Genie has not fled the scene, nor are there now two dimensions, one with and one without cranberry sauce.

 

If, however, you interpret EDM as having no possible SFX other than transporting the character between multiple pre-existing dimensions, then there are two dimensions, one with and one without cranberry sauce. Gene Genie's powers do not work at all as the player or character believed, nor as this construct is described in official Hero publications.

 

As a GM, if I were to allow Gene Genie's wish granting power, I would allow it on the basis that it works as the player has decribed it. If I did not want that power in the game, I would disallow the construct. If I wanted it built differently, I would discuss that with the player. I would not allow the player to purchase the power thinking it works one way, then spring the "GOTCHA - despite the description of your power, the fact that the mechanic you used to construct it includes the word Movement means you have fled the scene, not altered reality!" in play.

 

I also note that the Cranbery Sauce example can be constructed using Transform - the very power you are suggesting does too much in this thread. That seems the better build than using EDM.

 

So' date=' not a big fan of that particular manifestation of the power, to be honest with you, even if the rules do suggest it..[/quote']

 

Which is fine, as far as it goes. This then begs the question that, assuming you are prepared to allow Gene Genie, a Wish spell or any other variation of this ability in your game, how should it be constructed? A VPP seems the most appropriate approach, but this assumes some leniency by the GM where problems are encountered constructing certain effects with that VPP. As well, some GM's dislike VPP as a general construct, and most dislike wide scale VPP's in the hands of a player who is not highly skilled with creation of powers on the fly. Many of the reasons for disliking VPP would lead to denial of the Wish power (it's too versatile and can resolve any situation with no real drama). In those cases, the Wish power itself needs to be disallowed. But, if you are prepared to allow the versatility, there should be a mechanic to accomplish it. EDM is the official mechanic, so if I am going to disallow that approach, I think there is an onus on me to suggest its replacement.

[PhilFleischmann]

Re: Too Transform

 

It makes no sense to allow a PC to control what exists in other dimensions, any more than he can control what exists in his own dimension. I'm a pretty generous GM, and I might allow for an infinite number of other dimensions that a EDM-guy could use. And just to keep things flexible, I'll say that there's a good supply of "default empty" dimensions. So a character could EDM to one of them, and then do a bunch of Summons/Transforms to fill up the dimension with all the things he wants there to be there. Heck, I'll even throw in the breathable atmosphere for free, because I'm a nice guy.

 

As you say' date=' it depends on how you interpret the rules. If you interpret the rules that the "wish" version of EDM has the SFX of the character's wish being granted - that is, the special effect of EDM is to superimpose the desired version of reality over the current version of realtity - then there is a giant bowl of cranberry sauce when previously there was none. Gene Genie has not fled the scene, nor are there now two dimensions, one with and one without cranberry sauce.[/quote']

Yeah, but so what? That would be a particularly stupid way of interpreting the rules. Just because it's in the book doesn't mean it's not stupid. You could interpret the rules so that *any* power has the SFX of granting a wish. Why not say that Teleport grants any wish? It might even make more sense than EDM, since the idea is *not* to travel to another dimension, but to stay in this one.

 

If, however, you interpret EDM as having no possible SFX other than transporting the character between multiple pre-existing dimensions,

It's not a matter of SFX. That's the actual game mechanics of the power.

 

I would not allow the player to purchase the power thinking it works one way, then spring the "GOTCHA - despite the description of your power, the fact that the mechanic you used to construct it includes the word Movement means you have fled the scene, not altered reality!" in play.

Of course not. No one is advocating a "gotcha".

 

This then begs the question that, assuming you are prepared to allow Gene Genie, a Wish spell or any other variation of this ability in your game, how should it be constructed? A VPP seems the most appropriate approach, but this assumes some leniency by the GM where problems are encountered constructing certain effects with that VPP.

It's not so much about GM leniency as it is about how many points characters are built on. A wish spell, if truly built to grant any wish would have to cost an infinite number of points. By deciding how many points to spend on the VPP, and the other details of how it's built, the player is choosing the limits on what kind of wishes he can do.

 

As well, some GM's dislike VPP as a general construct, and most dislike wide scale VPP's in the hands of a player who is not highly skilled with creation of powers on the fly.

Which is a pointless argument since a GM could dislike anything, and any power construct could be in the hands of a player how doesn't know how to use it.

 

Many of the reasons for disliking VPP would lead to denial of the Wish power (it's too versatile and can resolve any situation with no real drama). In those cases, the Wish power itself needs to be disallowed.

No. It just needs to be priced appropriately. If the true wish power costs a billion points (which is a bargain!), most characters won't be able to afford it, but they can still buy some toned-down version of it for the points they can afford.

[Sean Waters]

Re: Too Transform

 

As you say, it depends on how you interpret the rules. If you interpret the rules that the "wish" version of EDM has the SFX of the character's wish being granted - that is, the special effect of EDM is to superimpose the desired version of reality over the current version of realtity - then there is a giant bowl of cranberry sauce when previously there was none. Gene Genie has not fled the scene, nor are there now two dimensions, one with and one without cranberry sauce.

 

If, however, you interpret EDM as having no possible SFX other than transporting the character between multiple pre-existing dimensions, then there are two dimensions, one with and one without cranberry sauce. Gene Genie's powers do not work at all as the player or character believed, nor as this construct is described in official Hero publications.

 

As a GM, if I were to allow Gene Genie's wish granting power, I would allow it on the basis that it works as the player has decribed it. If I did not want that power in the game, I would disallow the construct. If I wanted it built differently, I would discuss that with the player. I would not allow the player to purchase the power thinking it works one way, then spring the "GOTCHA - despite the description of your power, the fact that the mechanic you used to construct it includes the word Movement means you have fled the scene, not altered reality!" in play.

 

I also note that the Cranbery Sauce example can be constructed using Transform - the very power you are suggesting does too much in this thread. That seems the better build than using EDM.

 

I don't allow it, but the point is a serious one: EDM is a movement power. It is not 'sfx' that I'm arguing, it is mechanics. If you want to move an entire universe and superimpose it on this one, cool. You can probably get that for about 1200 points.

 

If you want to just find a universe with a huge bowl of cranberry sauce, cool: finding the right universe is not something EDM does - it isn't a sensory power. Get ourself a suitable enhanced sense with lots and lots of 'rapid' on it: it is a hell of a big multiverse, and huge bowls of cranberry sauce are simply not that common. Even so it is going to take you some time to trawl through infinity.

 

Anyway, let us assume you have found your target universe, complete with huge bowl of cranberry sauce. Right. Now you need to use your EDM, which needs to be UAA (you're bringing the Cranberry sauce here, so you need to target it) and you need transdimensional on the EDM too. Compared to the cost of moving a universe, that is cheap. Of course you will have spent god knows how much on that enhanced sense of yours.

 

Then it does what it says on the tin: moves something.

 

That is just applying the power as it is, not 'sfx'. 'Wish' is a ludicrously powerful concept. It will cost you a ludicrous amount of points.

 

I'm also not buying this 'collapsing realities' thing of yours but that's nothing to do with how the power works, as such, unless you are going to start arguing that you create other potential universes as a function of your desire. Then we'll need to have words

 

Which is fine' date=' as far as it goes. This then begs the question that, assuming you are prepared to allow Gene Genie, a Wish spell or any other variation of this ability in your game, how should it be constructed? A VPP seems the most appropriate approach, but this assumes some leniency by the GM where problems are encountered constructing certain effects with that VPP. As well, some GM's dislike VPP as a general construct, and most dislike wide scale VPP's in the hands of a player who is not highly skilled with creation of powers on the fly. Many of the reasons for disliking VPP would lead to denial of the Wish power (it's too versatile and can resolve any situation with no real drama). In those cases, the Wish power itself needs to be disallowed. But, if you are prepared to allow the versatility, there should be a mechanic to accomplish it. EDM is the official mechanic, so if I am going to disallow that approach, I think there is an onus on me to suggest its replacement.[/quote']

 

 

How would I do it? Well, yes, a VPP sounds about right if you want to have a power that can do anything - of course it is still limited by the points you've spent - but isn't that about right in a game like Hero. Hell, isn't it about right pretty much anywhere - there's a reason that characters with the ability to make anything happen do not appear as protagonists in stories.

 

You're going to be spending a LOT whichever way you slice it.

 

One possible suggestion: Luck. According to, you know, quantum, pretty much anything is possible, so if you roll enough 6s, your bowl of Cranberry Sauce will spontaneously appear. You get, oh I don't know, say twenty 6s and you can have your bowl of Biogobble beater.

 

On a related note, for this particular concept, transform is fine. Creating something that doesn't have any innate value in terms of points is a good use for the power. I'm not suggesting we get rid of Transform, just clip its wings a bit.

[megaplayboy]

Re: Too Transform

 

vis a vis the Wish power: the old Mythic Egypt supplement posited the Helipolitan Gods with 200 active point VPPs. I'd say you could probably write up a Wish as a VPP with a 100-300 active point control, with a modest pool size, and apply appropriate limitations (1 charge never recovers, possibly modified to be continuous or otherwise, if it's focused in an object you get that limiter, and "effect in accordance with literal wording of wish"). It'd get moderately affordable. As a PC spell, maybe 75 or 150 active points, with a limited number of uses per day, SE ages caster 1 year per use, costs end, etc.

 

In a superhero setting it's either a plot device or just a big VPP. In both instances, easier still if a genie or similar has to do it--just define the parameters of what the grantor can and cannot do.

 

You could, perhaps, impose more detail into the Transform power, similarly to the way the once terribly vague Change Environment has been more detailed.

 

Basically, I think there's a few effects we could delineate:

1. alter an existing object(vehicle, base, equipment or mundane tool, mundane object)

2. imbue powers or abilities into an existing object

3. create an object and alter or "enchant" it

4. alter an existing living being(living, computer/ai, automaton)

5. imbue powers or abilities into a living being

6. create a living being and alter or "enhance" it

7. alter an existing environment(up to and including reality itself)

8. create powers/effects in an existing environment(i.e., something with a tangible combat or noncombat effect)

9. create a new environment (up to and including a new plane of existence)

10. alter/imbue/create non-physical effects wrt objects, people and even environs.

 

Did I leave anything out?

[megaplayboy]

Re: Too Transform

 

One thing I've noticed is, Summon isn't permanent. Perhaps a +4 advantage, Summon Specific Being, Absolutely Loyal, EGOx250 tasks(2500 phases of combat or 2500 "tasks" noncombat), roughly models the ability to create a servitor to exact specifications, who will be effectively permanent? IOW, a 1 for 1 cost, before any limitations are applied? So creating objects and environs which are effectively permanent might follow a similar costing structure...