Too Transform

[Sean Waters]

There's another thread that Vondy posted (Transform Self) and I did not want to hijack that so I thought I'd post a specific point that came up:

 

Does Transform do too much and could it usefully be broken down into separate powers, new or existing?

 

One (quite major) issue with Transform is that it can be used to give or increase the powers and abilities of a target. There's little by way of hard coded rules over that - it is pretty easy to transform someone and little detail as to how long it lasts. We already have a power that increases powers (Aid) although it doesn't add powers (although that is ludicrously easy to do:

 

VPP: 1 point cosmic UAA 2 points and a 3 point control cost - so for 5 points you can give anyone a point of power then use Aid to increase it)

 

ANYWAY - the point is you can add powers and increase them without using Transform - why do we need transform to do that?

 

Equally if you want to transform a target so it has no legs then you can drain their running an/or Strength.

 

If you want to transform someone mentally, you can use mental powers - generally mind control.

 

If you want someone to look different you can use UAA shapeshift - or we could use Transform just for that - making stuff a different shape.

 

So, Aid, Drain and Mind Control do almost everything that Transform does and sfx could probably take care of the rest if shapeshift UAA seems unnecessarly complex. Most importantly there are very specific rules as to how they do what they do. Do we really need Transform?

[Daltwisney]

Re: Too Transform

 

There's another thread that Vondy posted (Transform Self) and I did not want to hijack that so I thought I'd post a specific point that came up:

 

Does Transform do too much and could it usefully be broken down into separate powers, new or existing?

 

One (quite major) issue with Transform is that it can be used to give or increase the powers and abilities of a target. There's little by way of hard coded rules over that - it is pretty easy to transform someone and little detail as to how long it lasts. We already have a power that increases powers (Aid) although it doesn't add powers (although that is ludicrously easy to do:

 

VPP: 1 point cosmic UAA 2 points and a 3 point control cost - so for 5 points you can give anyone a point of power then use Aid to increase it)

 

ANYWAY - the point is you can add powers and increase them without using Transform - why do we need transform to do that?

 

Technically, it would have to be:

VPP: 1 point, Cosmic, UAA. so 1 pt for the pool, control cost = 1 (1+ 2) (1 + 1.25) = 4, total 5 pts , since you cannot apply Advantages or Limitations to the pool itself, only the control cost or the powers built with the pool. (6e1, p 409)

 

The other issue with this is that YOU pay END for any powers granted this way, the power only remains in effect as long as you have LOS to the target.

Equally if you want to transform a target so it has no legs then you can drain their running an/or Strength.

Technically, you could define the SFX of a drain this way, but Drain removes Characteristics or Powers, and legs are neither. But then again, I could define a Blast as pulling the moon out of orbit and smacking you over the head with it. In practicality, though it looked like I used the moon, it would be pretty obvious I didn't, since that would have all sorts of other consequences I hadn't paid for.

 

If you want to transform someone mentally, you can use mental powers - generally mind control.

 

Albeit in a limited fashion (subject to the order given), and subject to Breakout rolls, so it would usually last a far shorter time than Transform.

 

If you want someone to look different you can use UAA shapeshift - or we could use Transform just for that - making stuff a different shape.

This is specifically disallowed under the rules for Shapeshift (6e1 p 280).

 

So, Aid, Drain and Mind Control do almost everything that Transform does and sfx could probably take care of the rest if shapeshift UAA seems unnecessarly complex. Most importantly there are very specific rules as to how they do what they do. Do we really need Transform?

 

I suppose it comes down to whether you are willing to bend or break the rules to substitute those abilities for Transform. Since Transform is capable of doing Physical, Mental and Characteristic/Power modifications in one go, my conclusion would be yes.

[Chris Goodwin]

Re: Too Transform

 

So' date=' Aid, Drain and Mind Control do almost everything that Transform does and sfx could probably take care of the rest if shapeshift UAA seems unnecessarly complex. Most importantly there are very specific rules as to how they do what they do. Do we really need Transform?[/quote']

 

There's always Extradimensional Movement to handle everything else....

[Duke Bushido]

Re: Too Transform

 

Sean, My friend,

 

there is a tiny streak of evil in you, isn't there?

[Sean Waters]

Re: Too Transform

 

Possibly....

[PhilFleischmann]

Re: Too Transform

 

I've never seen any reason why Aid shouldn't be used to grant powers to others. If you really think it's too powerful, just tack on an Adder (or maybe an Advantage "Can Aid Powers from 0 (i.e., grant new powers)". What's it worth 5-point Adder (the cost of the VPP Sean gives above), 10-point Adder (to account for no LOS needed to maintain, and the granter doesn't pay the END)?

 

You could also buy, say 5 points of whatever power you want, with UBO, for 6 points, and then Aid it from there.

[Duke Bushido]

Re: Too Transform

 

I've never seen any reason why Aid shouldn't be used to grant powers to others. If you really think it's too powerful, just tack on an Adder (or maybe an Advantage "Can Aid Powers from 0 (i.e., grant new powers)". What's it worth 5-point Adder (the cost of the VPP Sean gives above), 10-point Adder (to account for no LOS needed to maintain, and the granter doesn't pay the END)?

 

You could also buy, say 5 points of whatever power you want, with UBO, for 6 points, and then Aid it from there.

 

Going from there, if you want to limit it a bit or simply make it cost more, have a VPP with powers built "usable by others" and mandate that someone must be given the power before the Aid can be applied to it.

[Phil]

Re: Too Transform

 

In general, I'm totally in agreement with Sean. The very existence of Transform is an aberration to the effects-based system, a catch-all that allows you to do "any other business" where the other powers and abilities break down.

 

I like your thinking, and agree that I'd rather find some ways to tweak the existing Adjustment powers for most cases. Could be some tricky calculations, but Effects-based Nazism requires that we strive for nothing less.

 

I'll never forget Doc Democracy putting us up against a villain with a simple little 1d6 cumulative transform, who promptly turned the entire group into sand - and he knew, he goddamn knew that none of us had power defence, because he'd made the bloody characters for us dammit!! Since that day, I've vowed to wipe Transform from the pages of the game

[bigbywolfe]

Re: Too Transform

 

How would you propose turning someone into sand?

[Phil]

Re: Too Transform

 

How would you propose turning someone into sand?

That's the wrong question, and it sums up my issue with Transform. The correct question should be "What's the effect you want to achieve?", and then I'll happily tell you how I'd propose doing it

 

To all intents and purposes, in the game we played, being turned into sand was near as dammit being dead. So it's a Killing Attack. Another version might just be very strong Entangle, or Drain STR. Any one of a number of mechanisms that don't actually require to be game-mechanically transformed.

[Markdoc]

Re: Too Transform

 

To all intents and purposes' date=' in the game we played, being turned into sand was near as dammit being dead. So it's a Killing Attack. Another version might just be very strong Entangle, or Drain STR. Any one of a number of mechanisms that don't actually require to be game-mechanically transformed.[/quote']

 

Well, it's being dead that you heal back from with no side effects, so it's more like being at GM's option, except that you don't leave an obvious body behind.

 

Transform is an astoundingly useful power and currently seems to be well balanced: there are far easier ways to give someone powers than transforming them and then adding the powers on (Tho' Sean has a point that how long the powers last could be discussed) and far easier way to kill them than Transform.

 

Before getting rid of Transform, I'd want to see a clean, elegant build for "transforming" things that wasn't entirely special-effects based. Perhaps we could call it "Transform"?

 

cheers, Mark

[Doc Democracy]

Re: Too Transform

 

I'll never forget Doc Democracy putting us up against a villain with a simple little 1d6 cumulative transform' date=' who promptly turned the entire group into sand - and he knew, he goddamn knew that none of us had power defence, because he'd made the bloody characters for us dammit!! Since that day, I've vowed to wipe Transform from the pages of the game [/quote']

 

It's amazing how far apart GM and player memories are...that does not feature in anything I remember!

 

Anyway - I think that both Paco's and Neil's characters were able to generate power defence if they wanted to. I think there was also a pretty easy way to avoid that particular power if you had investigagted the villain as well...

 

Doc

[Phil]

Re: Too Transform

 

Before getting rid of Transform, I'd want to see a clean, elegant build for "transforming" things that wasn't entirely special-effects based. Perhaps we could call it "Transform"?

I just think Transform papers over cracks in the Effects-based nature of the game and, without intending to directly insult everyone who has ever used Transform, allows for slightly sloppy thinking by promoting SFX over Effect.

 

Personally, I'm against all powers which can duplicate the effect of another power, and Transform certainly falls foul of that. But I suspect that the transformation of Transform will only be able to take place if and when Hero achieves an even greater level of effects-based purity than 6th edition offers. And now I'm *really* starting to sound like some kind of Ku Klux Heroite!!

[Phil]

Re: Too Transform

 

It's amazing how far apart GM and player memories are...that does not feature in anything I remember!

I think it came along before the whole Demon stuff. I just remember it being unpleasant and undefensible!

Anyway - [...] I think there was also a pretty easy way to avoid that particular power if you had investigagted the villain as well...

Typical GM. Blaming the players

[Blue Jogger]

Re: Too Transform

 

Transform is the Dark Matter of the Champions Universe. We shouldn't need it, but it is what makes the rest of the calculations work without having to rewrite how the basic laws work.

 

That being said, I have longed for a Creation-type power so I can stop transforming Air into things. I've even gone as far as Summoining nearly inanimate creatures into being and tasking them to act like a couch RATHER than transforming the air into a couch. But, that's a minor quibble I suppose.

[Sean Waters]

Re: Too Transform

 

Well, it's being dead that you heal back from with no side effects, so it's more like being at GM's option, except that you don't leave an obvious body behind.

 

Transform is an astoundingly useful power and currently seems to be well balanced: there are far easier ways to give someone powers than transforming them and then adding the powers on (Tho' Sean has a point that how long the powers last could be discussed) and far easier way to kill them than Transform.

 

Before getting rid of Transform, I'd want to see a clean, elegant build for "transforming" things that wasn't entirely special-effects based. Perhaps we could call it "Transform"?

 

cheers, Mark

 

I would not have a problem with that - what I think i have issues with is all the other stuff that transform can do.

 

Turning someone into a pile of sand was mentioned and Phil suggested 'Killing Attack'. Shiny:

 

2d6 Energy Killing Attack Ranged 30 points

 

LIMS: No effect unless total damage does is sufficient to kill/destroy the target using only damage rolls from this power

AND: 'Killed' target comes back to life after 30 days

 

SFX: turns target to sand

 

OR

 

2d6 Body Drain Ranged 30 points

 

LIMS: No effect unless total damage does is sufficient to kill/destroy the target using only damage rolls from this power

AND: Target continues to recover lost Body even after 'death'

 

SFX: Turns target to sand

 

I do not see a problem with that sort of thing being effectively sfx based when the target ends up 'useless'.

 

The issue comes more when you want to turn the target into a werewolf - the end produce is still 'useful' and potentially more powerful than the starting target. if the end product is so mentally different it is effectively no longer the character, well, EDM UAA the target off to a stasis dimension and link a summon to bring int he werewolf.

 

If the target IS the character still - just more powerful and with a sudden urge to eat raw steak off the bone that is more difficult - but then is should be. Build the additional abilities with Aid, change the mental state with Mind Control (I know that breakout is an issue - but if you build a cumulative MC with lots of points it won't be) and any change of appearance, if you are not happy with sfx, could be done with images or by removing the injunction that you can not shapeshift someone else. Hmm. Maybe you should be able to Multiform someone else.

 

However, I agree to an extent - Transform is nowhere near balanced BUT it is reasonably balanced for combat - and that is all balance really means in Hero - in that it costs quite a lot to transform someone: a 15 Body character needs 30 point sof effect, and at 4d6 per 60 AP, that is going to take 2-3 shots. Given that power defence is far elss common than resistant defence that would probably actually take out an opponent faster than a killing attack, but not MASSIVELY faster, and, if transform is used a lot, power defence is actually a pretty cheap defence: 14 points makes you almost immune to major/severe transforms in games with a 60AP attack power guideline.

 

However - where Transform really triumphs is that it can make the target, instead of just falling over and bleeding, change sides and start on their former colleagues. That's like having a killing attack linked to a massive summon. Hmm. Maybe that is the way it should be done.

[Doc Democracy]

Re: Too Transform

 

I think it came along before the whole Demon stuff. I just remember it being unpleasant and undefensible!

 

Typical GM. Blaming the players

 

Actually blaming myself for leaving such an obvious hole in the playability of the adventure. Imagine! Expecting the players to realise they are outgunned and thinking round the problem rather than punching through it.

[Doc Democracy]

Re: Too Transform

 

If the target IS the character still - just more powerful and with a sudden urge to eat raw steak off the bone that is more difficult - but then is should be. Build the additional abilities with Aid' date=' change the mental state with Mind Control (I know that breakout is an issue - but if you build a cumulative MC with lots of points it won't be) and any change of appearance, if you are not happy with sfx, could be done with images or by removing the injunction that you can not shapeshift someone else. Hmm. Maybe you should be able to Multiform someone else.[/quote']

 

Well - Aiding them a multiform power (No conscious control and a decent trigger) and aiding them a complication or two. (if powers can be added why not complications?) and let the player roleplay it...

 

Doc

[Sean Waters]

Re: Too Transform

 

Actually blaming myself for leaving such an obvious hole in the playability of the adventure. Imagine! Expecting the players to realise they are outgunned and thinking round the problem rather than punching through it.

 

We live and learn

[Phil]

Re: Too Transform

 

We live and learn

 

We didn't

[Sean Waters]

Re: Too Transform

 

We didn't

 

Die and learn then.

 

Well, die....

[dmjalund]

Re: Too Transform

 

seems to me that the 'Power' of the Transform is actually 2 powers, first, a RKA that does no Stun that is AVAD of Power Defense, that doesn't actually kill. and there is the Transformative power that requires this other power to do a certain amount of BODY before it takes affect. If we can divorce these two powers, we could cover a lot more situations as well as give us a fairer idea of what the cost should be

[Chris Goodwin]

Re: Too Transform

 

This thread is very nicely recapitulating the thought processes that originally went into the Transform Power, and (apparently) coming to largely the same result (a Power that has the same cost as Killing Attack...)

[Sean Waters]

Re: Too Transform

 

This thread is very nicely recapitulating the thought processes that originally went into the Transform Power' date=' and (apparently) coming to largely the same result (a Power that has the same cost as Killing Attack...)[/quote']

 

Same start point, perhaps but unfortunately it wound up being a power with the same cost as a killing attack but a darn sight more actual utility and a less common defence - I'm not sure where it took the wrong turn...

[Duke Bushido]

Re: Too Transform

 

 

To all intents and purposes, in the game we played, being turned into sand was near as dammit being dead. So it's a Killing Attack.

 

Of course it is. That's how it was originally intended for play.

 

An excerpt from he original write up for Transform, as published in Champions III (1984), top of page 34:

 

Comment:

Transformation Attacks are based on Ranged Killing Attack. The logic is that if you do enough damage to kill someone or destroy something you might as well Transform it into something else. The base 15 point per 1D6, All-or_Nothing against power defense is designed to properly represent most Transformations in the comics. A 1D6 cumulative Transformation Attack with 1D6-1 Stun Multiple that acts against Resistant Defense costs 15 ptoins, just like 1D6 of Ranged Killing Attack. The Transformation Attack has the advantages of allowing the character to modify his target anyway he likes, so it has the disadvantages of higher END cost and no Knockback."

 

It costs the same simply because originally it was built along a different line of thinking:

 

"If I can kill something, I should be able to turn it into something else. It's dead anyway."

 

Lost along the years were the original ideas (I assume that this power was at least partly inspired by a related discussion in Dragon and one other gaming publication of a similar power in the months before Champions III) that you should be able to turn it into something _about as useful as a corpse_. Something that may have an immediate, short-term benefit, or something that just added a bit of flair to your character's method of destroying something:

 

"I turn the wall into ice and shatter it with my STR" or "I turn the doomsday weapon into rusted hunk of scrap metal" or things along those lines.

 

The worst offenses started, in my own opinion (meaning it is in no way criticism or calling out of anything official) with 4e, and it just got worse with each continuing edition, particular in 5e, where it became part of the Trifecta of Cobble.

 

The scope of Transform was broadened. No longer was simply a slightly-redundant but nifty way to achieve a special effect with a couple of minor perks possible, but suddenly it was the way to terraform an entire new planet or add nifty new features and powers to other characters.

 

Working around Transform is probably easier for players who were running games before there was a Transform: it becomes a matter of "how did we do this before we had Transform?" Players to come along after Transform came to be are treated to ever-increasing examples of Transform builds that have greater and greater power, and even Advantages and Limitations that both increase its range of power and make it more more attractive cost-wise.

 

I really don't think the problem lies with Transform itself. I think the problem lies more with the regrettable mistake of the original write-up: the limits of the power- or the specific intent of the power-- wasn't spelled out sharply enough. Turn over something like that to a group as creative and resourceful as bunch of life-long gamers, and it takes on a life of its own.

 

 

 

 

Another version might just be very strong Entangle, or Drain STR. Any one of a number of mechanisms that don't actually require to be game-mechanically transformed.