Help how do I balance PCs against NPCs

[DigterL]

Hey I'm completely new to the Hero system, and trying to build a fantasy campaign for me and 4-5 friends. So far I have the 5th edition rulebook and the Fantasy rulebook (got them cheap) and are reading through them but there is one thing I don't understand.

 

How would I build an encounter between a bunch of PC and one or more villains?

More specifically how do I measure/rate the challenge a monster, villain or group of villains posses? (As you might guess I started out playing D&D )

 

I don't know what you need to work your magic but here are the short version of my thoughts so far.

 

Specifics: The PC will be in the 250-300 point range, but has yet to be build. The world hopefully will get a Steven Erikson feel, so I think its high fantasy. Magic will difficult to use for defense.

 

The hook will be a “SWAT-style” attack by a group of assassins/evil henchmen that the characters should be able to repel or at least survive

 

Thank you

DigterL

[ghost-angel]

Re: Help how do I balance PCs against NPCs

 

Combat effectiveness in Hero takes into the following abilities at a very basic level (i.e. - doesn't take into account tactics):

 

OCV - Ability To Hit

DCV - Ability To Not Get Hit

Defenses (PD/ED/Mental/etc) - Ability to mitigate damage if Hit

Damage Class - How much damage you dish out when you hit

Speed - How often you can attack/Act

 

Secondary Concerns to look out for

DEX - When you go in combat

CON - More Stun Damage than your CON Score Stuns you, causing you to lose at least one Phase recovering.

END - How often you can use abilities before you need to rest.

 

It's not a particularly short list. And it doesn't take into account any Spells that characters might have that can control the battlefield, or the numerous maneuvers available to use. But comparing those numbers can give you a rough estimate of capability of two groups against each other.

 

If, for example, a Character has Defenses 2-3 times better than anyone else in the campaign, hit or not, they're likely not to going to be taken out of a fight through brute force. Or, if a character has an OCV 3 or more points greater than than the majority of DCVs their opponents are likely to have they chances of them missing are very very low; but then if they can't deal damage, that doesn't mean much.

 

So you kind of have to take all these numbers together, and find some balance.

 

Some suggestions -

Defenses: 1.5-2 Defenses of any type for every Damage Class will prevent a character from being Knocked Out or Killed quickly, but aren't so high as to make them invulnerable. For example, if you're common Sword does 1 1/2D6 Killing, and Strength Bonuses, or Martial Maneuver, or even Skill Levels can bring that up to an even 2D6 Killing Damage on average, you're dealing with 6 Damage Classes, I'd expect a character to come in near 9-12 Resistant Defenses to not get killing quickly. But if you want a lethal campaign, lower those expectations, but allow for higher DCVs; characters may not get hit often but will feel it when they do.

 

It's a tough call once you add in other abilities. I suggest going from here and seeing what works - what's easy, what's hard, and adjust your game as you go along until you find a happy medium everyone likes. The key here is building some Experience with using the system to make judgement calls.

[Panpiper]

Re: Help how do I balance PCs against NPCs

 

The important thing is for your players to experience a sense of adventure. If you are not sure how much is a challenge, you can be doubly sure your players don't either. The end result is that it is not necessary for your first few challenges to 'actually' be a challenge for your players. You can afford to understate their power and loose none of the sense of danger, as your players are learning just as are you.

 

So basically, build an equal number of opponents as you have players. But spend less points on them. If you know most of your players are doing 2D6+1 of damage with an OCV/DCV of 8 (after levels, etc.) and they are wearing Def 7 plate armor, have the same number of opponents go at them armed with weapons that do 2D6 damage, OCV/DCV of 7 (after levels) and wearing Def 6 chainmail. If your players don't win that fight, well, 'luck' was not on their side.

 

After a few fights like that, you will have a much better idea of the player's grasp of tactics, and what they can handle.

[Tywyll]

Re: Help how do I balance PCs against NPCs

 

First off, welcome to HERO!

 

Unlike D&D, there is no challenge rating system in HERO. Even point values are only a rough guide for balance comparisons. For example, compare a 300 point character with all the Knowledge Skills bought to 18- and every possibly language at 5 to the 150 point combat monster... they obviously shine in their own arenas, and could probably exist comfortably in the same party even (unlike 3rd and 4th ed D&D where characters of widely different levels can't usually operate together).

 

So, how do you balance things? First off, look at the different combat levels of characters. What does the bad guy need to hit the highest DCV in the party? What about the lowest DCV? How much damage do they do, on average, versus the defense of the heaviest armored character? What about the lowest armored character?

 

Another bit of advice you might want to try. If you and your group are new to HERO, I'd recommend starting characters at normal level (75+75 points of limitations in 5th Ed). This way you can cut your teeth on the system with less things to worry about at once, and less chance for confusion. Starting HERO characters are a lot tougher than starting D&D characters. They are not 'weak' by any stretch (more like 3rd-5th level characters). If, after a few sessions you decide to ramp things up, then you can always 'flash forward' and dump some extra points on characters.

 

As to magic, well there are lots of example systems in Fantasy Hero you could use right out of the box. A lot of people simply let spell casters buy Multipowers or VPPs to represent magic.

 

Hope this helps some.

[Lucius]

Re: Help how do I balance PCs against NPCs

 

My own advice is to run a couple of "arena combats" to get used to the system. Let the players fight each other, then run them against teams you make up, but nothing "counts" as part of actual continuity.

 

Do this a couple of times and you will start to get a feel for things - figure out why your gladiator X mopped the floor with the players, or why gladiator Y couldn't seem to hit/ couldn't seeem to do damage/ couldn't seem to suvive getting hit.

 

Another difference form D&D - D&D more or less guarantees that every character is "survivable." Scrutinize the "noncombat" characters to make sure they won't just keel over dead if they get caught in melee. Combat Luck is something even sages should probably have.

 

I'd say, require every player character to have SPD 3 and make most of the opposition either 2 or 3. Later on you can allow extraordinary fighters or monsters meant to take on a whole group to be SPD 4 or more.

 

Do just one combat where all your NPCs have SPD 2 against SPD 3 players, and you'll probably understand what a major factor it is.

 

Lucius Alexander

 

House of the Palindromedary

[Susano]

Re: Help how do I balance PCs against NPCs

 

If you need a lot of 5E stuff to use in your fights and tests, let me plug my website. http://surbrook.devermore.net/index/ You'll find a lot of 5E stuff there is experiment with.

[Heroic Halfwit]

Re: Help how do I balance PCs against NPCs

 

Some tricks I've used:

 

1. Waterfall reinforcements, throw (#-2) low level antagonists at the players. If they handle it well, call in reinforcements. If not let it ride. If the NPC's are wiping the floor with your players make sure there's a noncombat objective where it makes sense for them to cut and run (e.g. a hostage to kidnap, artifact to steal, etc.)

 

2. Design antagonists with limited use offensive/defensive skills. This allows you to tailor the power of the NPC to the PC's

 

3. Be careful about using sound tactics when the players do not. Teams that coordinate attacks (not just to get the coordinated attack bonus, but through such tactics as having the High OCV character knockdown the High DCV PC, so that players with lower OCV's can strike the PC)

[Sean Waters]

Re: Help how do I balance PCs against NPCs

 

Here's a sneaky trick. Don't tell anyone though.

 

Say the superhero team consists of

 

Rampart (stone sfx strong/tough type)

 

IceFist (cold sfx based martial artist)

 

Soma (teleporting, fast healing brawler, extremely good looking)

 

Pulse (sound based energy blaster with flight)

 

M'kay. Take the character sheets. Subtract 2 the PD and ED of each character. Change teleport to running and sound based to 'kinetic', change flight to leaping, change 'cold based' to electricity based' and change 'stone based' to 'slime based'

 

Change the names to:

 

Baccillus

 

UltraVolt

 

Blur

 

Momentum

 

Change the character images pretty radically. Increase two if the character's DEX by 1 and reduce two of the character's DEX by 1. Good to go. If you feel at all guilty you can customise them more, but unless any of that have REALLY unusual powers, a change of sfx and name is usually all you need to make a character unrecognisable. Seriously, I ran a whole campaign with six basic template villains once, and no one noticed they were being constantly reused.

 

Think is the villains should be a challenge for the heroes BUT should just about lose - but it will be a close thing. As you get more confident, customise more to the point where you are customising the whole character.

[Manic Typist]

Re: Help how do I balance PCs against NPCs

 

Nice!

[Sean Waters]

Re: Help how do I balance PCs against NPCs

 

Nice!

 

Not an original idea - I used to play a game called Golden Heroes: you'd roll for superpowers then overlay sfx: so the same mechanical build could easily represent a large number of very different characters. I guess I still look at things that way sometimes

[torchwolf]

Re: Help how do I balance PCs against NPCs

 

Not an original idea - I used to play a game called Golden Heroes: you'd roll for superpowers then overlay sfx: so the same mechanical build could easily represent a large number of very different characters. I guess I still look at things that way sometimes

The players will mostly perceive the chassis, not the framework or engine underneath. I should really use your idea here more.

 

OT: I once had the Golden Heroes game (along with several other older SHRPGs) - still remember the GM being called the Scenario Supervisor, aptly abbreviated the SS. It was a hilarious game - still find myself thinking in "frames" now and then, and the published scenarios I still have.

...and now it's back, under the name Squadron UK (may that be a tribute to Australian game Super Squadron?).

 

NOTE: free download of Squadron UK basic rules and a sample scenario is available on rpgnow in case anyone is interested (Simon Burley Productions)

[Utech]

Re: Help how do I balance PCs against NPCs

 

I second (or third or fourth...) the notion that running a few example combats is a good idea. It will help you and your players learn the ins and outs of the system and give you an idea of what to expect from different numbers.

 

A lot will depend on the kind of game you want to run. With just a little tweaking of a few characteristics, defenses, and damage, you can make your game:

- big suits of armor bouncing blows off of each other until they can get lucky, get help from a friend, or something similar

- an extremely deadly affair where a drawn weapon pretty much means somebody's going to die

- swift, lightly armored folks twisting out of the way of blades and then darting in to land the perfect shot

- a G-rated world in which hardly anybody important gets hit, nobody dies, and the teapots sing

- or a hundred other things.

 

Have fun!

[torchwolf]

Re: Help how do I balance PCs against NPCs

 

What has already been said here are very good advice.

 

Another point (which was brought up under the "Base Line Hero" thread) is that odds can become very important in Hero System combat. Briefly:

Since 3d6 has a heavily weighted probability towards the middle range, differences in CV values of 4 or more makes it either nearly impossible to hit (if DCVs are 4 or more higher than your OCV) or be hit (if your DCV is 4 or more higher than your opponents OCV).

This impacts heavily on the odds in combat as well, since you usually will take at least a little damage from every hit - if the opposition number twice as many as the PCs, likely they will take STUN twice as often as their enemies, if CVs and attacks are comparable.

You will notice the exact effect of this if you run a test combat or two with different numbers of combatants on each side.

Several solutions are possible, the easiest being making the enemies of the PCs have limited opportunity to attack all at once, and ensuring your PCs have higher CVs than the opposition (this includes Combat Skill Levels and maneuvers of various kinds), but probably not more than 1-3 CV advantage or it may seem too easy for your players.

Encourage your players to exploit the tactical choices available - these are a lot of fun - but let them find out gradually what works best for them; it all depends on exactly how the PCs are built.

[Sean Waters]

Re: Help how do I balance PCs against NPCs

 

Another thing I do, sometimes, is make villain builds much less balanced than Hero builds, for example, Phason is a being of almost pure energy. He has a massive EB (15d6 - big for the game) and defences enough to make him virtually invulnerable to energy attacks - but he is vulnerable to physical attacks, going down easily if his energy matrix is disrupted by matter. He's either horibly dangerous or unconscious - thing is the players have to work out his vulnerability and exploit it. That can be far more interesting (sometimes) than beating the opponent down with dice because what the character does can have a disproportional effect. Not something to do all the time, but a good one to throw in sometimes - basically a character that is easy to beat - if you work out how.

 

This sort of character would probably make a relatively poor PC because they are a one trick pony and spend half their time unconscious - but they can make an interesting and challenging villain.

 

Of course smart villains will recognise their own weaknesses and compensate tactically (the above character may well take on PC energy projectors at range and avoid the martial artists and bricks if possible) which then makes it more of a battle of wits than simply one of power.