LETS DO IT AGAIN: Arguing over characteristics

[torchwolf]

Re: LETS DO IT AGAIN: Arguing over characteristics

 

Figured characteristics and comelines are also traditions dating back to or prior to 4e. Was it Champions II that suggested spending some xp enhancing your comeliness since your hero now gets all that press coverage? The fact is that "every Super has a DEX level at or above an Olympic gymnast" is a tradition of Champions' date=' and is a departure from, rather than a reflection of, the source material. Champions, like D&D, becomes a subgenre of the source material it was intended to emulate.[/quote']

Although this doesn't prove anything either way, I thought it might be interesting to have a look back through time to examine how it was treated (not listing more here than what is relevant to the discussion).

 

Different Worlds Issue 23, August 1982 (Role-Playing the X-Men, by Glenn Thain):

 

Glenn Thain has a look at the X-Men (ca issue 161 of Uncanny X-Men) in Champions terms (presented in order as listed in the article, all built as 200+Disadvantages, 345-450 total point characters except Magneto who is 1500 total).

 

Sprite (Kitty Pryde's first code name):

 

• DEX 18, SPD 3.
  
• Other characteristics of note: CON 13, INT 25, PD 6, ED 8
  
• Defenses: none (though obviously, she has Desolidification).
  
• Attacks & other: 10 DC NND Phasing.
  

 

Storm:

 

• DEX 24, SPD 5.
  
• Other characteristics of note: CON 25, PRE 20, COM 30, PD 8, ED 16.
  
• Defenses: none.
  
• Attacks & other: 12 DC Weather Powers.
  

 

Colossus:

 

• DEX 21, SPD 5 (either form).
  
• Other characteristics of note: STR 20/70, CON 15/28, PD 10/20, ED 8/24, REC 9/24 (normal/armored).
  
• Defenses: Full Damage Resistance.
  
• Attacks & other: Martial Arts (no kick).
  

 

Nightcrawler:

 

• DEX 27, SPD 6.
  
• Other characteristics of note: CON 23, PD 10, ED 10.
  
• Defenses: none.
  
• Attacks & other: Martial Arts.
  

 

Cyclops:

 

• DEX 23, SPD 5.
  
• Other characteristics of note: CON 23, INT 20, EGO 18, PRE 25, COM 18, PD 10, ED 15.
  
• Defenses: none.
  
• Attacks & other: Martial Arts, +5 w 18 DC Optic Blast. [18 DC EB/RKA]
  

 

Wolverine:

 

• DEX 26, SPD 5.
  
• Other characteristics of note: STR 28, CON 30, BODY 15, PRE 20, PD 22, ED 15.
  
• Defenses: Regeneration 2/Turn, Missile Deflection.
  
• Attacks & other: Martial Arts, 9 DC (+AP) Claws, +6 w PER Rolls.
  

 

Magneto:

 

• DEX 25, SPD 9.
  
• Other characteristics of note: CON 23, INT 38, EGO 26, PRE 50, COM 24, PD 12, ED 15, END 200, STUN 80.
  
• Defenses: 25/12 Hardened Force Field or 12/12 Force Wall (w LS Linked).
  
• Attacks & other: Lots of powers, 20 DC attacks.
  

 

 

NOTE 1: X-Training represented as 1+ Overall Level(s) and basic Mental Defense.

 

NOTE 2: Glenn Thain also comments that these versions should be somewhere in the realm of the "average" as far a Champions character are concerned, which would indicate this is not an attempt to represent the X-Men absolutely "true" to source, but he's done an effort to represent their abilities and Characteristics. Wolverine's STR, however, confounded me, but it was probably done this way to increase the HKA.

 

NOTE 3: This is obviously not the whole article, just a selection.

 

NOTE 4: Yes it was Champions II that suggested getting prettier for PR purposes.

[Bloodstone]

Re: LETS DO IT AGAIN: Arguing over characteristics

 

Wolverine's STR' date=' however, confounded me, but it was probably done this way to increase the HKA.[/i']

 

Doubtful. He's alwyas been really damn strong, casually lifting grown men off the ground with one hand. In recent years, they've use dthe excuse that his strength has been increased over time as a result of carrying around all the extra weight from the adamantium.

 

I usually put Wolverine down for at least a 25 STR. In his first appearance against the Hulk seemed to have low levels of actual super strength, but that's been largely ignored.

 

His DEX, however, strikes me as a bit high considering Nightcrawler is a 27...

[casualplayer]

Re: LETS DO IT AGAIN: Arguing over characteristics

 

Wolverine's done lots of things that warrant a pretty hefty STR, from snapping his chains in Mesmero's circus to hefty leaps and the mentioned one-arming of full-grown men. But his DEX is probably too high in those beloved Different Worlds write-ups. Tough to say though, because Logan was a little dervish in his first Hulk appearance. It's all relative.

 

Wolverine's character was such a min-maxed combat wombat though that Thunderbird's player suicided his character and quit the game!

[JmOz]

Re: LETS DO IT AGAIN: Arguing over characteristics

 

So I started this thread, I guess I should give my thoughts on it.

 

First: The game being played is more important than any gold standard. What I mean by this is that if the gM is trying to do a "Heroes" game then lower other stats is appropriate.

 

Second: I think that the two major companies (DC/Marvel) have characters acting well beyond any reasonable limit all of the time. You look at Nightwing, he easily swings from tall buildings, does a triple sumersault onto a moving train, KO'ing two guards that are standing on said train. "intense training" is a superpower in otherwords. So the question becomes how far removed should supers be from normals. I can't help but think of this double page spread of the Teen Titans vs Viper...err Hydra....the HIVE? one of those groups, so about 300 agents vs 7 and Robin is jumping around kicking tail.

 

I do hope that with the deoupling we will see some difference, for that matter I strongly recomend using the APG suggestion of seperating Dex into two groups (Agility and reflex). NOt that they will be closer but rather more specilised (Nightwing will still have well over a dex of 20...probably really close to 30) but his str might be lower...

[Cardinal]

Re: LETS DO IT AGAIN: Arguing over characteristics

 

Mind you' date=' there's nothing stopping one from saying that the Special Effect of an Attack Roll against one's character failing, is that the attack bounced off the character's skin/armor/force field etc. As is often mentioned in discussions of the system, how something plays out game-mechanically doesn't necessarily have to define how it looks within the world of the game.[/quote']

 

Excellent point. I like the suggestion that someone made on another thread of +X DCV invisible power effect (i.e. you think you hit so it looks like invulnerability).

 

Wolverine's character was such a min-maxed combat wombat though that Thunderbird's player suicided his character and quit the game!

 

LOL.

[Bloodstone]

Re: LETS DO IT AGAIN: Arguing over characteristics

 

Wolverine's character was such a min-maxed combat wombat though that Thunderbird's player suicided his character and quit the game!

 

Repped for sad, horrible truth

 

DAMN YOU LEN!

 

EDIT: Not sure if the rep worked or not. Comment box didn't pop up and now it says must spread rep...

[dmjalund]

Re: LETS DO IT AGAIN: Arguing over characteristics

 

Night crawler, like dick grayson has the excuse of having been brought up in a circus

[Greywind]

Re: LETS DO IT AGAIN: Arguing over characteristics

 

Night crawler' date=' like dick grayson has the excuse of having been brought up in a circus[/quote']

...and a half-demon, with a totally human physiology according to Dr. Strange, when Kurt was scanned with the Eye of Agamotto.

[casualplayer]

Re: LETS DO IT AGAIN: Arguing over characteristics

 

...and a half-demon' date=' with a totally human physiology according to Dr. Strange, when Kurt was scanned with the Eye of Agamotto.[/quote'] bold mine.

 

La-la-la-la-la, can't hear you!

 

Seriously, that is a product of the Austen Wasteland and will be scrubbed from continuity first chance someone gets.

 

With a norm mean of 8-11 and most supers in the 18-23 DEX range I would put Kurt at a 28 DEX. He is nimbleness and acrobatic grace. If the default superguy sports a 23 DEX, I would put Nightcrawler at a 33.

[Matt Holck]

Re: LETS DO IT AGAIN: Arguing over characteristics

 

I think supers will eventually migrate to 13 dexterity in 6th edition

The old source material however is easiest to translate directly

so I don't foresee a drop in CV values

[Rapier]

Re: LETS DO IT AGAIN: Arguing over characteristics

 

I've been working on my campaign. I've been drawing up some villains and NPCs.

 

I had to go back and lower (out of the 14 I've done so far) 4 DEXes that I had inflated. I've actually been leaving most of the stats for the villains in the normal human range. There are a couple of characters (a martial arts kung fu master and a super speedster) that have DEXes over 20. Most of the rest of them are even <15.

 

It is actually looking like people might begin to FAIL a Breakfall roll!!! OMG!

[Matt Holck]

Re: LETS DO IT AGAIN: Arguing over characteristics

 

that should be fun

and for area effects buy defenses

 

my friend wants to house rule

dive for cover

so that the charcter need not decide ahead of time how many hexes it wants to travel

rather just make however many points the character made its dex roll by is how many hexes they dived.

[lapsedgamer]

Re: LETS DO IT AGAIN: Arguing over characteristics

 

Although this doesn't prove anything either way, I thought it might be interesting to have a look back through time to examine how it was treated (not listing more here than what is relevant to the discussion).

 

Different Worlds Issue 23, August 1982 (Role-Playing the X-Men, by Glenn Thain):

 

Glenn Thain has a look at the X-Men (ca issue 161 of Uncanny X-Men) in Champions terms (presented in order as listed in the article, all built as 200+Disadvantages, 345-450 total point characters except Magneto who is 1500 total).

 

Sprite (Kitty Pryde's first code name):

 

• DEX 18, SPD 3.
  
• Other characteristics of note: CON 13, INT 25, PD 6, ED 8
  
• Defenses: none (though obviously, she has Desolidification).
  
• Attacks & other: 10 DC NND Phasing.
  

 

Storm:

 

• DEX 24, SPD 5.
  
• Other characteristics of note: CON 25, PRE 20, COM 30, PD 8, ED 16.
  
• Defenses: none.
  
• Attacks & other: 12 DC Weather Powers.
  

 

Colossus:

 

• DEX 21, SPD 5 (either form).
  
• Other characteristics of note: STR 20/70, CON 15/28, PD 10/20, ED 8/24, REC 9/24 (normal/armored).
  
• Defenses: Full Damage Resistance.
  
• Attacks & other: Martial Arts (no kick).
  

 

Nightcrawler:

 

• DEX 27, SPD 6.
  
• Other characteristics of note: CON 23, PD 10, ED 10.
  
• Defenses: none.
  
• Attacks & other: Martial Arts.
  

 

Cyclops:

 

• DEX 23, SPD 5.
  
• Other characteristics of note: CON 23, INT 20, EGO 18, PRE 25, COM 18, PD 10, ED 15.
  
• Defenses: none.
  
• Attacks & other: Martial Arts, +5 w 18 DC Optic Blast. [18 DC EB/RKA]
  

 

Wolverine:

 

• DEX 26, SPD 5.
  
• Other characteristics of note: STR 28, CON 30, BODY 15, PRE 20, PD 22, ED 15.
  
• Defenses: Regeneration 2/Turn, Missile Deflection.
  
• Attacks & other: Martial Arts, 9 DC (+AP) Claws, +6 w PER Rolls.
  

 

Magneto:

 

• DEX 25, SPD 9.
  
• Other characteristics of note: CON 23, INT 38, EGO 26, PRE 50, COM 24, PD 12, ED 15, END 200, STUN 80.
  
• Defenses: 25/12 Hardened Force Field or 12/12 Force Wall (w LS Linked).
  
• Attacks & other: Lots of powers, 20 DC attacks.
  

 

 

NOTE 1: X-Training represented as 1+ Overall Level(s) and basic Mental Defense.

 

NOTE 2: Glenn Thain also comments that these versions should be somewhere in the realm of the "average" as far a Champions character are concerned, which would indicate this is not an attempt to represent the X-Men absolutely "true" to source, but he's done an effort to represent their abilities and Characteristics. Wolverine's STR, however, confounded me, but it was probably done this way to increase the HKA.

 

NOTE 3: This is obviously not the whole article, just a selection.

 

NOTE 4: Yes it was Champions II that suggested getting prettier for PR purposes.

 

I owned this magazine back in the day. Great memories. I also had one where they did up the Teen Titans. It would be cool to see them again. Maybe I'll look on E-bay. Repped for reminding me of happier days.

[lapsedgamer]

Re: LETS DO IT AGAIN: Arguing over characteristics

 

Doubtful. He's alwyas been really damn strong, casually lifting grown men off the ground with one hand. In recent years, they've use dthe excuse that his strength has been increased over time as a result of carrying around all the extra weight from the adamantium.

 

I usually put Wolverine down for at least a 25 STR. In his first appearance against the Hulk seemed to have low levels of actual super strength, but that's been largely ignored.

 

His DEX, however, strikes me as a bit high considering Nightcrawler is a 27...

 

Yeah, but you have to take into account that this was at the height of Wolverine's "you never asked" days. He really was outshining everyone else in the book on a regular basis. Personally, I would say that if Nightcrawler is pegged at 27 and Cyclops is pegged at 23, Wolverine should be at DEX 25.

[dmjalund]

Re: LETS DO IT AGAIN: Arguing over characteristics

 

I owned this magazine back in the day. Great memories. I also had one where they did up the Teen Titans. It would be cool to see them again. Maybe I'll look on E-bay. Repped for reminding me of happier days.

I remember that also had the stats for Deathstroke the Terminator - I remember he had a very high SPD

[Hugh Neilson]

Re: LETS DO IT AGAIN: Arguing over characteristics

 

The concept above is why I have grown to like the concept of damage negation (I haven't used it in a game yet, so I don't have a strong feeling if the mechanic works - but I love the concept). One concern with traditional defenses was that if you got hit by the cop / thug, you could lose the stun lotto and get knocked out. This means that you would jack Dex and Spd inorder to make sure that you had a DCV that would avoid getting hit. With damage negation, you can definitive know that certain attacks from normals will have no impact and therefore do not have the same DCV needs. As such, it would suggest that the Thing rocky hide, Colossus's steel body, and Sue Richard's forcefield were all a mix of rDef + Damage Negation.

 

It also takes discipline on the part of the GM to not overly upgrade "normal" weapons. I was surprised when I read through the Viper source book how many ridiculously powerful weapons were available for Viper Squads and that even some of the standard weapons could put heros down. If you don't want the supers to fear agents and thugs, you have to accept lower DC standards.

 

While I agree with much of the above, with the Stun Multiple reduced to 1-3 in 6e, it becomes much less an issue. The average BOD roll on a KA will manage STUN equal to an equivalent normal attack only 1/3 of the time. The killing attack, with this modification, becomes much more about killing than KO. In most Supers games,where rDEF generaly mitigates the BOD aspect, this renders KA's pretty low in utility, which is consistent with their usage in the source material.

 

I agree there's a tradeoff for agents, etc. We want them to be weaker, but still a threat, in game. But in the source material, hordes of agents get taken down by a single Super, or a small group. In game, that's a long,long series of die rolls with little real threat to the characters.

 

Wolverine's done lots of things that warrant a pretty hefty STR, from snapping his chains in Mesmero's circus to hefty leaps and the mentioned one-arming of full-grown men. But his DEX is probably too high in those beloved Different Worlds write-ups. Tough to say though, because Logan was a little dervish in his first Hulk appearance. It's all relative.

 

Wolverine's character was such a min-maxed combat wombat though that Thunderbird's player suicided his character and quit the game!

 

I'd say Wolverine's DEX may be in the ballpark, but Nightcrawler's is too low. He should be competetive with martial artists, say a 33.

 

I would also note that the writeups reflected the X-Men in Champiopns terms, and were therefore dictated as much by the standards of published Champions characters at the time as by the source material. How many Hellfire Club agents could have hit those X-Men, as compared with their comic book counterparts? Well, it depends on the stats those agents get, but likely no better than VIPER for comparability, so they wouldn't hit often.

[Matt Holck]

Re: LETS DO IT AGAIN: Arguing over characteristics

 

I only heard about the X-men write ups

that their DC and CV where much higher than the standard 8 Damage Class 8 Combat Value our characters were written at.

[lapsedgamer]

Re: LETS DO IT AGAIN: Arguing over characteristics

 

I only heard about the X-men write ups

that their DC and CV where much higher than the standard 8 Damage Class 8 Combat Value our characters were written at.

 

Thinking that far back into my past is odd, but I remember that those magazine write-ups made great visual aids fro new players trying to figure out what their characters should look like. You could ask if someone read X-Men and then show them the stats as starting point.

 

If I were writing up Nightcrawler I would go as high as 29 DEX, maybe 30. I tend to reserve anything over 30 or uber speedsters and cosmic types. Just a matter of taste. In my write-ups I still consider 25 to be a decently potent DEX score.

[JmOz]

Re: LETS DO IT AGAIN: Arguing over characteristics

 

One thinking I have been giving a lot of thought to is how will the seperation of CV from characteristics effect character design. Take NightCrawler. While he definatly will have a high Dex, maybe as high as 28, back in the day it was the cheapest mean to get a high DCV, now that you buy DCV seperate will we see his dex go down some (Back in the day I think I might have given him as high as 35. Then again I think of him as a speedster...

[Bloodstone]

Re: LETS DO IT AGAIN: Arguing over characteristics

 

One thinking I have been giving a lot of thought to is how will the seperation of CV from characteristics effect character design. Take NightCrawler. While he definatly will have a high Dex' date=' maybe as high as 28, back in the day it was the cheapest mean to get a high DCV, now that you buy DCV seperate will we see his dex go down some (Back in the day I think I might have given him as high as 35. Then again I think of him as a speedster...[/quote']

 

I wouldn't reduce Nightcrawlers DEX at all compared to my 5E version of him. He's beyond peak human and one of the most nimble characters in the MU. He has well above average reflexes and is extremely good at a reasonably large number of Agility skills. All these scream high Dex. But my write ups would have different amounts of OCV and DCV now.

 

By contrast, Quicksilver would have only an above average DEX, with scads of Lightning Reflexes with a very high OCV and DCV.

[Greywind]

Re: LETS DO IT AGAIN: Arguing over characteristics

 

...and running...

[Bloodstone]

Re: LETS DO IT AGAIN: Arguing over characteristics

 

...and running...

 

More likely Flight, Only in contact with a Surface actually...

[AnotherSkip]

Re: LETS DO IT AGAIN: Arguing over characteristics

 

Is he actually fast enough to go that way?

[Matt Holck]

Re: LETS DO IT AGAIN: Arguing over characteristics

 

let the story decide

 

I wouldn't reduce Nightcrawlers DEX at all compared to my 5E version of him. He's beyond peak human and one of the most nimble characters in the MU. He has well above average reflexes and is extremely good at a reasonably large number of Agility skills. All these scream high Dex. But my write ups would have different amounts of OCV and DCV now.

 

By contrast, Quicksilver would have only an above average DEX, with scads of Lightning Reflexes with a very high ODV and DCV.

 

Back in the day,

a successful 1/2 move acrobatics roll gave the character +2 DCV

Martial Arts gave a character +1 or +2 DCV still does in general

[Bloodstone]

Re: LETS DO IT AGAIN: Arguing over characteristics

 

Is he actually fast enough to go that way?

 

Absolutely!

 

 

This is the second Spider-man comic book I ever owned in my life. My Uncle bought it for me around '81 or '82, but it was printed back in 1969. It was the very first time I ever laid eyes on Quicksilver, a character that would eventually grow to be a real favorite of mine

 

Anyhow, on page 13, Quicksilver races up a wall so fast that Spider-man's webbing cant stick to him or the wall he was aiming at. Nor can Spidey even tell who has blocked his shot until Pietro stops moving at the top of the building. Spidey begins to fall. Quicksilver wasn't really sure he could save himself at the time so...

 

On page 14, he proceeds to race down the same wall in order to try and catch Spider-man from falling to his certain doom!

 

I'm fairly certain Quicksilver did that sort of stunt in the X-Men or Avengers some time before that particular issue, it's just the earliest memory I have of the guy doing the gravity defying running bit.

 

Before anyone asks, he runs on water too, though not in this issue...