Altered Life Death Cycle Effects

[Vondy]

Okay, I'm thinking about including an altered life-death cycle in a fantasy world. I would like some feedback on how people think this would impact society and culture...

 

Some notes...

 

Genre: hard fantasy, low fantasy, noirish fantasy.

Milieu: more byzantine medieval than western european. Inspired by Tharda.

Magic: dream and metalism based. Subtle, but can be very powerful. Separate post.

Races: humans and rare fantastical beasts. No elves, dwarves, goblins, etc.

Notes: herbs inducing lactation & reducing odds pregnancy exist, as to abortificant herbs.

 

Brass tacks...

 

At some point before reaching middle years people stop showing the signs of aging. Instead, barring death by violence or disease, most people simply find world weariness sets in upon them and they fall into a torporous state. This usu. happens between seventy and ninety years of age. While uncommon, life spans going well past 100 do occur. Once in torpor the body remains undecayed for a period of years before turning into a dried out husk. In most cases this torporous state lasts a few years, though a decade or more isn't unheard of. In some rare cases it seems to be indefinate, lasting centuries. And even more rare: the torporous person wakes back up (gen. after a decade or more). For such individuals life is often cyclic with torpor-rebirth happening multiple times.

 

This has had a number of effects on culture/life. During the torporous state the person is considered betwixt existence and oblivion - which is what has occurs right before decay sets in. During this time communication is possible via lucid dreaming, though this gets more difficult the closer to oblivion the torporous person gets. It is also believed the soul's connection to the body weakens over time allowing them to walk the dream. The temporary tombs of such people are often places of veneration for those hoping they will interceded with ancestors, shades, or beings within the dream. In general burial mounds have seperate chambers for the torporous and the dead.

 

In legal terms, falling into torpor is death. Money, lands, property, and titles pass on to inheritors. Spouses become widows and children become orphans even if they rise again. And oaths and vows are nullified. However, custom allows a person to stipulate certain clothes and personal possessions remain theirs until decay sets in. As such, a certain amount of surety may be present when they rise again. What exactly can and can't be stipulated is heavily dictated by status and custom. If the person is a noble they are often afforded a courtesy title. But...

 

Sometimes continuity of memory and/or identity can be an issue. Sometimes risen individuals do so with "lost time" or gaps in their memory. Sometimes they forget skills or essential components of personality. Most often such gaps are minor and do not impair the person's ability to reintegrate into the waking world as much as the change of society in the interim years does. These gaps tend to be greater the longer the person is in torpor. Its commonly said this is because they shed this world while walking the dream.

 

Its rumored there are rituals for anchoring memories and personality in objects or to the person themselves, but if such rituals do exist they aren't commonly known. In general its believed a person who rises from torpor for a second (or third or fourth, etc) life is favored in the heavens, though the circumstances of their life at the time they went into torpor may cause some to regard their return as more curse (or even punishment) than blessing.

 

My general thought is that only about 1% of the population ever rises from torpor. Could be slightly more, or less.

 

So, what impact would this have?

[Vondy]

Re: Altered Life Death Cycle Effects

 

Its Ground Hog Day!

[shadowmage87]

Re: Altered Life Death Cycle Effects

 

Let me first say that this is awesome. I think a game could be a lot of fun just toying with this concept. So, on to impact:

 

1) Religion. Religion would be different. It would serve essentially the same function, (i.e. explaining things like purpose and "death") but it would have different flavor because of the torpor. I would imagine there would be less general fear of death, for one thing, since death progresses naturally after torpor, which is just an extended sleep, from which a few people even wake. Thus a lot of the mystery and fear of death would evaporate. Not all of it, but a lot of it. So you would have terms or phrases like "walking the waking world," "walking the dream," and "living the dream" or...I don't know, something less corny...but some dream-related thing to show that the person who's gone from torpor to decay has permanently entered the dream world. Popular religions might be daoist or Manichean in flavor, with a Waking God and a Dream God.

 

2) Medical Oddities. Given the system you've set up, it is not inconcievable that a person could (incredibly rarely) enter the decay stage and then wake up. Needless to say, this would be horribly unpleasant.

 

3) Legal Ramifications. What happens when a criminal enters torpor mid-sentence, then wakes again? Has he fulfilled his debt? Your initial wite-up would suggest so, but it might be one of those things for which there are specific provisions made in the legal code. That might also be a difference between kingdoms. One holds your debt fulfulled, one doesn't.

 

4) Philosophical Ramifications. This cycle could have incredible ramifications for your metaphysics. It would almost certainly be dualist, with all things (at least all living things) having a dream and physical component, although it is possible that monism would be exceedingly popular.

 

That's all I've got off the top of my head...I'll keep track of this and post as I think of more.

[shadowmage87]

Re: Altered Life Death Cycle Effects

 

I have a question: how do you tell the difference between torpor and sleep? Is there a distinct difference? Does the heart actually stop? If the difference is not obvious, then how long does one have to be asleep for it to be a torpor?

[Ragnarok]

Re: Altered Life Death Cycle Effects

 

This is a neat concept. The criminal aspect would definitely have heavy societal and philosophical ramifications, though such an occurence would be rare indeed. 1% of the total population is already low, and then accounting for the relatively small percentage (I'm assuming) of the total population are criminals, etc....

 

A cool plot hook for the PCs could deal with a powerful, ambitious ruler who went into torpor. Wakes up a couple generations later, and he wants his power back. Since all land and titles are passed on after torpor, the end result would probably be significant strife, if not civil war. Especially if the former ruler tried to appeal to the religious zealots by relating his experiences with the "dream state."

[Vondy]

Re: Altered Life Death Cycle Effects

 

I have a question: how do you tell the difference between torpor and sleep? Is there a distinct difference? Does the heart actually stop? If the difference is not obvious' date=' then how long does one have to be asleep for it to be a torpor?[/quote']

 

Good question.

 

A person in torpor does not have autonomic reactions to external stimuli, their respiration and heartbeat slow to the point of being imperceptible, their skin is somewhat cool to the touch. But their pallor remains good, and they do not deteriorate from starvation of dehydration, or lose muscle tone. These changes take about 24 hours to set in.

 

Also, torpor results from "old age deaths" ("world weary deaths"?), dehydration, starvation, asphyxia, or hypoxia. Its not *generally* associated with catastrophic system failure like heart attack or massive stroke, cancer, plague, misadventure, suicide, or homicide. Such deaths result in immediate onset of final death. If the body's systems aren't in tact its a moot point anyways because the person will not rise again.

 

A comatose person will deteriorate to the point of death at which point they enter torpor. But the bottom line is, without modern diagnostic techniques, the appaerent absence of respiration and heartbeat, and low body temp, would indicate torpor rather than unconsciousness or coma. Once its seen they are 1) in that state, and 2) not decaying like someone who has reached final death, it would be known they were in torpor, which is synonymous with being dead.

 

At least, to the denziens of the game world its synonymous with being dead. A person who rises from torpor (rare) is considered to be ressurected.

[Vondy]

Re: Altered Life Death Cycle Effects

 

A cool plot hook for the PCs could deal with a powerful' date=' ambitious ruler who went into torpor. Wakes up a couple generations later, and he wants his power back. Since all land and titles are passed on after torpor, the end result would probably be significant strife, if not civil war. Especially if the former ruler tried to appeal to the religious zealots by relating his experiences with the "dream state."[/quote']

 

Its a good campaign idea.

[Vondy]

Re: Altered Life Death Cycle Effects

 

3) Legal Ramifications. What happens when a criminal enters torpor mid-sentence, then wakes again? Has he fulfilled his debt? Your initial wite-up would suggest so, but it might be one of those things for which there are specific provisions made in the legal code. That might also be a difference between kingdoms. One holds your debt fulfulled, one doesn't.

 

This is a neat concept. The criminal aspect would definitely have heavy societal and philosophical ramifications' date=' though such an occurence would be rare indeed. 1% of the total population is already low, and then accounting for the relatively small percentage (I'm assuming) of the total population are criminals, etc....[/quote']

 

Such a person is free of all debts and penalties from their past life. It would, however, be rare as pre-modern prisons were typically for holding people prior to trial-sentencing. Incarceration isn't normative punishment. Fines, flogging, indentured servitude, exile, or execution would be normative sentences. A "second cycle" is a new life despite any continuity of memory and persona.

[Ragnarok]

Re: Altered Life Death Cycle Effects

 

Just curious, what happens when an awakened serial killer retains his personality? Assuming they're aware of this fact (through a post-awakening test perhaps), does that mean that they'll let him loose again? Or would they give him a clean slate and wait until the people start dropping like flies, then take action?

[Vondy]

Re: Altered Life Death Cycle Effects

 

Let me first say that this is awesome. I think a game could be a lot of fun just toying with this concept. So, on to impact:

 

1) Religion. Religion would be different. It would serve essentially the same function, (i.e. explaining things like purpose and "death") but it would have different flavor because of the torpor. I would imagine there would be less general fear of death, for one thing, since death progresses naturally after torpor, which is just an extended sleep, from which a few people even wake. Thus a lot of the mystery and fear of death would evaporate. Not all of it, but a lot of it. So you would have terms or phrases like "walking the waking world," "walking the dream," and "living the dream" or...I don't know, something less corny...but some dream-related thing to show that the person who's gone from torpor to decay has permanently entered the dream world. Popular religions might be daoist or Manichean in flavor, with a Waking God and a Dream God.

 

4) Philosophical Ramifications. This cycle could have incredible ramifications for your metaphysics. It would almost certainly be dualist, with all things (at least all living things) having a dream and physical component, although it is possible that monism would be exceedingly popular.

 

That's all I've got off the top of my head...I'll keep track of this and post as I think of more.

 

Interesting. I have an outline for the religion. I'm working dreams into it.

 

2) Medical Oddities. Given the system you've set up' date=' it is not inconcievable that a person could (incredibly rarely) enter the decay stage and then wake up. Needless to say, this would be horribly unpleasant.[/quote']

 

This would require two things 1) for some method of reanimation after the onset of final death to occur, which I did not provide for, and 2) the person's memories and persona to be anchored to the body so they do not "pass into oblivion." This is basically a plot device or an explanation for undead. It wouldn't happen naturally. Perhaps some dark cult knows these forbidden secrets.

[Vondy]

Re: Altered Life Death Cycle Effects

 

Just curious' date=' what happens when an awakened serial killer retains his personality? Assuming they're aware of this fact (through a post-awakening test perhaps), does that mean that they'll let him loose again? Or would they give him a clean slate and wait until the people start dropping like flies, then take action?[/quote']

 

The main thing to remember is that a known serial killer would probably have been executed. Incarceration as punishment is a fairly modern concept. One thing that occurs to me is that hanging would not be a popular method of execution as a botched hanging resulting in asphyxiation might result in torpor and an off chance of an unwanted return. The only way this situation would crop up would be if 1) he fell into torpor before he was tried, or 2) for some reason he could not be convicted at trial. Unless you came from a position of privilege and power the odds of the latter were fairly low. Public outrage could easily lead magistrates/nobles to reach popular decisions irrespective of the facts in classical and medieval societies so a serial killer was in a bad way if he was facing a trial. Justice tended to be swift, not overly concerned with appeals unless you had influence, and follow the "have you ever known the collective opinion of the village to be wrong?" variety. It would almost have to be a situation where their dastardly deeds were discovered after they were in torpor. At that point they are legally dead anyways. My assumption is that they'd have a clean slate, which creates good plot tension and character conflict. This would be a "hollywood odds" kind of chance.

[Ragnarok]

Re: Altered Life Death Cycle Effects

 

Makes sense. I wasn't entirely sure what the laws were regarding the death sentence vs. life imprisonment. Would make for a nice story vein though.

[Vondy]

Re: Altered Life Death Cycle Effects

 

Incidentally, when I was working on my post-apocalyptic antarctica culture, one of the things I left unfinished was religion. I need to edit some of what I wrote in that thread, especially about the cults, but this and the religion will probably be fused with the Hodj.

[Shadowsoul]

Re: Altered Life Death Cycle Effects

 

Magic: dream and metalism based. Subtle, but can be very powerful. Separate post.

 

I assume you mean mentalism? If not then you should have a look at the craft of Allomancy in the Mistborn series. Very good stuff.

 

The main topic is fascinating by the way. May have more useful thoughts to add when I have more time.

[Vondy]

Re: Altered Life Death Cycle Effects

 

I assume you mean mentalism? If not then you should have a look at the craft of Allomancy in the Mistborn series. Very good stuff.

 

The main topic is fascinating by the way. May have more useful thoughts to add when I have more time.

 

Yes, mentalism. Good catch.

[Lord Liaden]

Re: Altered Life Death Cycle Effects

 

The mind boggles at some of the implications of this concept.

 

My first thought is that you would likely see the evolution of cultural elements similar to those of Coptic Egypt, only moreso. Philosophically, there will probably be a strong theme of death and rebirth in this world's religion, since the evidence of the physical possibility of this is real and tangible. The situation will lead to an association of the themes/motifs of life, death, sleep, and dreams. A hierarchical relationship might be perceived between normal sleep and dreaming, torpor, and final death. If your world's religion is at all polytheistic, or has supernatural functionaries comparable to angels or saints, those who have responsibility for aspects of sleep and dreaming will be diverse and prominent.

 

Since you mention "ancestors, shades, or beings within the dream," the arcane geography and population of the dream-world could be complex, possibly reflecting the hierachical relationship I mentioned above. You might consider whether any elements of these carry over into the physical world, e.g. the "proper" design of temples and other architecture; and themes and motifs in artwork, literature, or music. Equally significant would be whether the dream world and its denizens are viewed as uniformly benevolent or at least neutral, or whether a "nightmare" region exists within it, with its own populace and great powers.

 

Socially, a great deal of thought and energy will have been devoted to the proper physical and spiritual care of the torporous, similar to caring for the dead in ancient Egypt. Large population centers will likely maintain a "narcopolis" where special priests and other staff look after the wealthy or noble-born who are in torpor, to properly ease them into their final rest or back into the waking world. Since dreams are such an important part of this world, I could see dream interpretation being a thriving business, for fortunetellers and for healers. There could be a major market, "black" or otherwise, in drugs which are believed to promote prophetic dreaming. OTOH I could see an equal demand for stimulants or other treatments believed to hold back torpor, among those in no hurry to surrender their worldly possessions and status.

 

You mention that people who rise from torpor multiple times are considered blessed (or cursed, depending on the circumstances of their previous life-cycle). This sounds a little like the process of reincarnation as defined by Hindus or Buddhists. Yet you also describe how those who return from torpor are to a large extent disenfranchised from their previous lives. I would suggest that those who return form a separate social class, with unique privileges and responsibilities. Those of good reputation who return the most often, or after the most prolonged periods of torpor, would be considered the most spiritually evolved and have the greatest status, influence, and possibly spiritual/mystical power. OTOH those for whom reawakening is seen as a curse and punishment would make up an underclass of "untouchables," shunned by most people. Yet those of such bent could become favored by the powers of evil (assuming your world has such), sent back to the waking world time after time as they plunge deeper into corruption... yet simultaneously accumulating negative spiritual power (and making great enemies for PCs).

[Vondy]

Re: Altered Life Death Cycle Effects

 

The mind boggles at some of the implications of this concept.

 

 

Thanks for you insights!

[Alibear]

Re: Altered Life Death Cycle Effects

 

Sounds awesome. Is this where vampires and undead come from? Have decayed and come back to life perhaps? The undead would be stick on bad guys in my opinion.

[Vondy]

Re: Altered Life Death Cycle Effects

 

Sounds awesome. Is this where vampires and undead come from? Have decayed and come back to life perhaps? The undead would be stick on bad guys in my opinion.

 

Some who rises via the natural cycle would be a normal living human. But if they were to have entered the decayed state and were returned via some unnatural means they would be undead - revenants.

[Markdoc]

Re: Altered Life Death Cycle Effects

 

An awesomely interesting concept. Instead of rehashing what the others have said, I'll just make a few minor comments.

 

1. In many practical/legal ways, it would not change things too much. You have a more or less normal human lifespan with "death" at the end of it allowing orderly transition of possessions and rights.

2. It's going to have a profound effect, obviously on worldview and religion. In roman times, the families of the deceased would visit the catacombs (where such things were used) and take a festive meal among the dead. Catacombs have rooms with built-in couches and tables precisely for such feasts, which also accompanied the burial. I always figured the generous sized amphora of wine which traditionally accompanied such meals got more use than the food, given the likely smell of the place. However given the universal presence of torpor, I suspect that such places would be far more elaborate and comfortable and also involve more economic input: at the very least you are going to want small boys to chase rats away - it'd be no fun arising from torpor to find rats had gnawed your nose and fingers off. Probably we are talking about a whole trade of necropolitans responsible for burial, guarding the torpid and possibly even helping them integrate back into society when (if) they awake. I suspect, much like the egyptians, that the wealthy might spend a great deal of time and thought on designing their torporium and having it ready "just in case"

3. I think it might be interesting to consider what does happen to the re-awakened from a social aspect. They'd be in a uniquely vulnerable position in some ways, emerging as adults without the support mechanism that grow up around most children as they age. How do the live? Do they form a separate caste, as Lord Liaden suggested? Are they re-adopted into their families as respected elders, or regarded as prized retainers or advisors?

4. Last of all, how do they interact magically, while in torpor? You discussed communication via lucid dreaming. If this is reliable or semi-reliable, I'd expect the families might keep the torpid close by - in effect, they remain part of the family. The merchant could always contact dearly departed dad for advice on a tricky customer, or the ironworker on the treatment needed to make long-lasting gate hinges. In this case, family houses might include shrines for the torpid and separate burial ceremonies for the finally dead, rather than shared necropoli and the necropolitans I mentioned would be unneeded. For me at least the family shine idea has a slightly chinese feeling, while the necropoli gives amore roman/egyptian feel.

 

cheers, Mark

[Alibear]

Re: Altered Life Death Cycle Effects

 

I think instead of having little boys with sticks you'll have domesticated animals of some sort, cats or WHFRPG small yet vicious dogs. They might even have some sort of protected status like some animals, monkeys iirc do in India. Perhaps become semi devine guardians of the not quite dead.

 

But yes masuleums will be often be big lavish affairs where people will spend large amounts on Ststus symbols, parties and upkeep. I can imagine rich families might have private guards to protect the not quite dead and others might kidnap them for ransom.

[Alibear]

Re: Altered Life Death Cycle Effects

 

Another thought. If peoplle can influence by their actions, or even think they can influence their chance of coming back then that will be the basis of many religions and cults.

 

People will be more X (heroic or pure or whatever)in the hope that they'll rise again.

[dmjalund]

Re: Altered Life Death Cycle Effects

 

I could see a fair amount of people having their "Rip-van-Winkle" moment where civilization had changed significantly since they entered torpor

[Vondy]

Re: Altered Life Death Cycle Effects

 

An awesomely interesting concept. Instead of rehashing what the others have said, I'll just make a few minor comments.

 

1. In many practical/legal ways, it would not change things too much. You have a more or less normal human lifespan with "death" at the end of it allowing orderly transition of possessions and rights.

2. It's going to have a profound effect, obviously on worldview and religion. In roman times, the families of the deceased would visit the catacombs (where such things were used) and take a festive meal among the dead. Catacombs have rooms with built-in couches and tables precisely for such feasts, which also accompanied the burial. I always figured the generous sized amphora of wine which traditionally accompanied such meals got more use than the food, given the likely smell of the place. However given the universal presence of torpor, I suspect that such places would be far more elaborate and comfortable and also involve more economic input: at the very least you are going to want small boys to chase rats away - it'd be no fun arising from torpor to find rats had gnawed your nose and fingers off. Probably we are talking about a whole trade of necropolitans responsible for burial, guarding the torpid and possibly even helping them integrate back into society when (if) they awake. I suspect, much like the egyptians, that the wealthy might spend a great deal of time and thought on designing their torporium and having it ready "just in case"

3. I think it might be interesting to consider what does happen to the re-awakened from a social aspect. They'd be in a uniquely vulnerable position in some ways, emerging as adults without the support mechanism that grow up around most children as they age. How do the live? Do they form a separate caste, as Lord Liaden suggested? Are they re-adopted into their families as respected elders, or regarded as prized retainers or advisors?

4. Last of all, how do they interact magically, while in torpor? You discussed communication via lucid dreaming. If this is reliable or semi-reliable, I'd expect the families might keep the torpid close by - in effect, they remain part of the family. The merchant could always contact dearly departed dad for advice on a tricky customer, or the ironworker on the treatment needed to make long-lasting gate hinges. In this case, family houses might include shrines for the torpid and separate burial ceremonies for the finally dead, rather than shared necropoli and the necropolitans I mentioned would be unneeded. For me at least the family shine idea has a slightly chinese feeling, while the necropoli gives amore roman/egyptian feel.

 

cheers, Mark

 

I'm considering rolling this thread and the postapocalyptic antarctica thread into one. I may take two concepts from there: the funerary cult and the possibility of someone being declared a "ghost" into one. If the funerary cult is responsible for administering the torporiums (for lack of a better word at this point) then perhaps ghosts - those who did not meet strict manhood requirements/etc - are the attendants of those in torpor. They would also be able to find useful work in assisting the bone sister caste that deals in carcasses, decaying corpses, tanning hides, etc. It would be a bit rococo - funerary cult, the bone sisters, and the "Ghosts," but a lot of cultures have sophisticated group interplay.

[Vondy]

Re: Altered Life Death Cycle Effects

 

I think instead of having little boys with sticks you'll have domesticated animals of some sort, cats or WHFRPG small yet vicious dogs. They might even have some sort of protected status like some animals, monkeys iirc do in India. Perhaps become semi devine guardians of the not quite dead.

 

But yes masuleums will be often be big lavish affairs where people will spend large amounts on Ststus symbols, parties and upkeep. I can imagine rich families might have private guards to protect the not quite dead and others might kidnap them for ransom.

 

I like this idea. I have to research how much of an issue rodents/rats would be in Antarctica. I'd also have to figure out what would make for an appropriate ratter.