Weaponmaster of the Knife

[Keyheart]

6th edition hero system question. Been having a spat with a player on the weaponmaster power. He's a weapon master of the knife. The problem lies in the interpretation of how far that spreads exactly.

 

If he were to throw the knife, considering how drastically different a style it is, the fact that it's an entirely different weapon familiarity, does different damage, has different strengh requirements and such for throwing as opposed to stabbing, does he keep the weapon master bonus?

 

IRL it's a totally different style and may not translate. No matter how good you are at thrusting and stabbing, throwing is completely different. He argues because throwing a dagger does noting but add range, he keeps it...yet it clearly changes the weapon quite a bit when you throw it.

 

So my question is, does a thrown knife still count as a "knife" for weapon mastery?

[Nevenall]

Re: Weaponmaster of the Knife

 

The WeaponMaster talent specifically states that you have to buy it separately for melee and ranged weapons.

[Alibear]

Re: Weaponmaster of the Knife

 

What Nevenal said.

[Chimera 12]

Re: Weaponmaster of the Knife

 

The WeaponMaster talent specifically states that you have to buy it separately for melee and ranged weapons.

 

Actually, that's not strictly true. What the Weaponmaster talent does say is that you buy it for either HKAs or RKAs -- but if you stop to think about it, a knife remains a HKA even when thrown. It doesn't magically turn into an entirely different base Power just because it has been purchased with an Advantage that lets it be used at range.

 

Frankly, I'd have no problem with letting the Talent apply to thrown knives as well as to ones used in melee. Then again, I'm the kind of person who doesn't see much point in having separate Weapon Familiarities for every single possible way the exact same weapon can be used, either, so maybe I'm just the tiniest bit biased there.

[Xavier Onassiss]

Re: Weaponmaster of the Knife

 

Actually' date=' that's not strictly true. What the Weaponmaster talent does say is that you buy it for either HKAs or RKAs -- but if you stop to think about it, a knife [i']remains[/i] a HKA even when thrown. It doesn't magically turn into an entirely different base Power just because it has been purchased with an Advantage that lets it be used at range.

 

It doesn't matter what the 'base power' is, a thrown weapon is a ranged attack. It's not held in the attacker's hand, it takes range mods, reach is not a factor... shall we go on? There's simply nothing to distinguish it from any other ranged attack, other than the 'base power' it's built on.

 

The key here is that power modifiers count! Regardless of what the 'base' power is, if a modifier is added which changes the power type, then so be it. The original power type is gone.* Changing an attack power from 'hand-to-hand' to 'ranged' is one example, but there are many others: physical attacks can be turned to mental attacks, and vice-versa; instant powers can become constant; the list goes on and on.

 

Insisting that the 'base power' trumps everything else in a power construction will inevitably lead to nonsensical results.

 

 

*In the case of thrown knives, etc, this isn't 100% true. They can still be used hand-to-hand, and should still be treated as such when used that way. But when they're being thrown, the thrower is using the ranged modifier, and the rules for ranged attacks should apply. Specifically, he should use talents for ranged weapons, not hand-to-hand weapons! I'm very much aware that buying both costs more points. Tough.

[Chimera 12]

Re: Weaponmaster of the Knife

 

It doesn't matter what the 'base power' is, a thrown weapon is a ranged attack. It's not held in the attacker's hand, it takes range mods, reach is not a factor... shall we go on? There's simply nothing to distinguish it from any other ranged attack, other than the 'base power' it's built on.

 

The key here is that power modifiers count! Regardless of what the 'base' power is, if a modifier is added which changes the power type, then so be it. The original power type is gone.* Changing an attack power from 'hand-to-hand' to 'ranged' is one example, but there are many others: physical attacks can be turned to mental attacks, and vice-versa; instant powers can become constant; the list goes on and on.

 

Insisting that the 'base power' trumps everything else in a power construction will inevitably lead to nonsensical results.

 

 

*In the case of thrown knives, etc, this isn't 100% true. They can still be used hand-to-hand, and should still be treated as such when used that way. But when they're being thrown, the thrower is using the ranged modifier, and the rules for ranged attacks should apply. Specifically, he should use talents for ranged weapons, not hand-to-hand weapons! I'm very much aware that buying both costs more points. Tough.

So...would you argue that somebody who throws a knife doesn't get to add their STR to damage with it anymore, either? Since that simple act apparently does magically transform it into an RKA after all, in which case STR should no longer apply...

[Bloodstone]

Re: Weaponmaster of the Knife

 

It doesn't matter what the 'base power' is' date=' a thrown weapon is a ranged attack. It's not held in the attacker's hand, it takes range mods, reach is not a factor... shall we go on? There's simply nothing to distinguish it from any other ranged attack, other than the 'base power' it's built on. [/quote']

 

But it's not based on Ranged or Melee.

 

Weapon Master is built as extra DC's for either an HKA or an RKA.

 

If the character is using an HKA with the Range Based on STR advantage , he's still using an HKA.

 

It does not turn into an RKA just because it's now Ranged any more than an RKA turns into an HKA once you add the No Range lim to it.

 

This is not a unique situation.

 

Using Aid HKA would have no effect on HA, Blast or RKA.

 

Same with a similarly designed Drain...

[Bloodstone]

Re: Weaponmaster of the Knife

 

And despite what I have just said, as GM you are will within your rights to require a limitation to prevent it from being used with ranged combat if this would not be thematically appropriate, such as in a more realistic game.

 

I've studied over a dozen styles of knife fighting in my day and have only been taught how to throw in two of them. The techniques are dramatically different and there is little that translates between the two aspects of the art.

 

Relativly few martial artists I know advocate it. My first FMA instructor often said "If you throw a knife in a fight, you haven't just disarmed yourself. You've probably armed the other guy!"

 

However, this sort of thing is almost ridiculously common in heroic fiction. Anyone that's good with knives is pretty much assured to know how to throw them with deadly accuracy. Nothing wrong with that. People tend to want to read about people that are larger than life.

 

Just need to make sure players and GM are on the same page, both in theme and rules

[Xavier Onassiss]

Re: Weaponmaster of the Knife

 

So...would you argue that somebody who throws a knife doesn't get to add their STR to damage with it anymore' date=' either? Since that simple act apparently does magically transform it into an RKA after all, in which case STR should no longer apply...[/quote']

 

Of course not. Adding range to an HKA doesn't negate the ability to add STR damage.

 

I'll take 'Deliberate Misinterpretations' for $1000, Alex....

[torchwolf]

Re: Weaponmaster of the Knife

 

Still, even if a thrown HKA would technically still be a HKA, what about the samurai who purchased the Weaponmaster Talent?

 

Should the samurai be penalized and not allowed to use his Weaponmaster Talent at range because katanas are not usually thrown and hence not built as throwable?

 

Whatever the individual GM ruling, it should probably be consistent in that it either applies to all thrown weapons for Weaponmaster characters who wants to throw their weapons, or it does not apply to ranged attacks with HTH weapons at all (unless it is also bought Ranged).

 

I can imagine that a GM might also rule differently on this in Heroic vs Superheroic campaigns.

[Keyheart]

Re: Weaponmaster of the Knife

 

In an effort to squelch an angry player and make the game more enjoyable I let him apply it to thrown. That being said, I and the other players agree that it's not the same. This is a heroic setting, standard heroic. It's also a WW2 setting...if he wants to chuck knives in a gunfight...whatever.

[Xavier Onassiss]

Re: Weaponmaster of the Knife

 

He's throwing his katana?

 

Oh yeah, I wouldn't hesitate to charge full price for that kind of stunt. And I'd throw in penalties for 'unbalanced object' without blinking.

[Nevenall]

Re: Weaponmaster of the Knife

 

Well, here's another way to think about the issue. The Weaponmaster talent is built as 3, 5, or 8 point Combat Skill Levels and CSLs can apply to both Ranged and HtH attacks, if the GM allows it.

So, there's a good justification to allow Knifemaster to apply to thrown knives.

[Xavier Onassiss]

Re: Weaponmaster of the Knife

 

Well, here's another way to think about the issue. The Weaponmaster talent is built as 3, 5, or 8 point Combat Skill Levels and CSLs can apply to both Ranged and HtH attacks, if the GM allows it.

So, there's a good justification to allow Knifemaster to apply to thrown knives.

 

That's an important point: the Weapon Master talent is built as Combat Skill levels with limitations, not as an extra D6 of KA. And the description for 3pt (small group of attacks) and 5pt (large group of attacks) combat skill levels both specifically state that they may be defined for groups of attacks which include both hand- and ranged. So the earlier statement that the Weapon Master talent is purchased for either HTH or Ranged weapons doesn't hold in all cases. And apparently, defining it that way is confusing enough to cause arguments.

 

I'll be amending my GM's notes in this regard; to define the Weapon Master talent in the same terms as Combat Skill Levels. Hopefully that will make clear when it's applicable and when it isn't.

[Nevenall]

Re: Weaponmaster of the Knife

 

That's an important point: the Weapon Master talent is built as Combat Skill levels with limitations, not as an extra D6 of KA. And the description for 3pt (small group of attacks) and 5pt (large group of attacks) combat skill levels both specifically state that they may be defined for groups of attacks which include both hand- and ranged. So the earlier statement that the Weapon Master talent is purchased for either HTH or Ranged weapons doesn't hold in all cases. And apparently, defining it that way is confusing enough to cause arguments.

 

I'll be amending my GM's notes in this regard; to define the Weapon Master talent in the same terms as Combat Skill Levels. Hopefully that will make clear when it's applicable and when it isn't.

 

Well, technically a Talent is an entirely new thing not tied to how it was costed.

 

But in the end it's all about justify whatever position the GM wants to take.

[Utech]

Re: Weaponmaster of the Knife

 

So my question is' date=' does a thrown knife still count as a "knife" for weapon mastery?[/quote']

 

I think that others have answered this from a rules perspective pretty well -- or at least addressed the important issues -- in previous posts.

 

The other important perspective is, of course, yours. You and the player in question have a fundamental misunderstanding about the kind of game you are trying to run. Your interpretation of Weaponmaster is tightly tied to "realism" while the player's is more "cinematic".

You're quite right that in real life, stabbing and thrusting with a knife is quite different from throwing a knife.

Your player is quite right that in most action movies (and television shows and comic books and myths...) someone who is a master of the knife is a master whether he's stabbing, thrusting or throwing.

 

My advice to you is to talk with all your players and make sure you're all on the same page about what sort of game you're playing. Once you're all on the same page, this sort of argument over how to interpret the rules is a lot easier to resolve.

[Keyheart]

Re: Weaponmaster of the Knife

 

This particular payer is fickle. He will argue realism when it benefits him, and cinematics when it benefits him...regardless of setting. He is an excellent roleplayer, but he's a bit annoying at times. A min-maxer to the core really.

[Xavier Onassiss]

Re: Weaponmaster of the Knife

 

Well, technically a Talent is an entirely new thing not tied to how it was costed.

 

But in the end it's all about justify whatever position the GM wants to take.

 

In cases like this, I find the notes on Talent creation (6e1 p447) quite helpful. When I found out it was built as skill levels, that gave me information on the Weapon Master talent I wasn't previously aware of -- very useful information, as it turns out, because of the ambiguities in the description of the talent on p116.

 

I kinda wish this info had been included in the talents section, instead of burying it in the appendix. Good to know it's there, anyways.

[Ice9]

Re: Weaponmaster of the Knife

 

While the Talent is a separate thing, I don't see much point making it more restrictive than the CSLs it's built from. In that case, why wouldn't the player just buy the CSLs directly? In fact, unless Weaponmaster is getting a hefty discount for "Only to Add Damage" (don't have my books with me), why wouldn't you just get the CSLs anyway and have the option of accuracy?

[Chimera 12]

Re: Weaponmaster of the Knife

 

While the Talent is a separate thing' date=' I don't see much point making it more restrictive than the CSLs it's built from. In that case, why wouldn't the player just buy the CSLs directly? In fact, unless Weaponmaster is getting a hefty discount for "Only to Add Damage" (don't have my books with me), why wouldn't you just get the CSLs anyway and have the option of accuracy?[/quote']

 

The stated Limitation value for "Only To Increase Damage" is -1/2, reducing the cost by one-third relative to just buying six (!) relevant CSLs. (The version built with 8-point levels gets another -1/2 "Only With Weapons" Limitation tacked on, for a total 50% cost reduction.)

 

Effectively, for the point cost of Weaponmaster, you can have four or (for the broadest version) three straight CSLs of comparable scope. Going that route results in a character who has more tactical flexibility than the one who just picked up the Talent...but who also, all other things being equal, just isn't going to reliably inflict the same kind of damage on a hit.

[Utech]

Re: Weaponmaster of the Knife

 

This particular payer is fickle. He will argue realism when it benefits him' date=' and cinematics when it benefits him...regardless of setting. He is an excellent roleplayer, but he's a bit annoying at times. A min-maxer to the core really.[/quote']

 

I can understand that. I think that you need to make it clear, though, that you're not interested in playing a fickle game. This knife-throwing example may help define the sort of game you do want to play. Once everyone is clear on the sort of game you're playing, you can then turn him loose: "That's the line and we won't be stepping over it. If you're ever unsure where the line is, ask. Now, within those constraints, min-max to your heart's content! I'm really excited to see what you can do."

[Ninja-Bear]

Re: Weaponmaster of the Knife

 

Can I just say that when they remade weapons with the HKA throwable, that I think it opened up a can worms? Now before the tar and feathers come out, I'm not saying that in the scheme of things it doesn't make sense when building certain weapons (shuriken is not one of them, imo). But as this agrument shows, it added an extra wrinkle that would be avoided if you kept HKA-hand only and RKA-ranged only. And this would make the HA cannot be ranged except with GM permission in heroic games, go away.

[Xavier Onassiss]

Re: Weaponmaster of the Knife

 

Can I just say that when they remade weapons with the HKA throwable' date=' that I think it opened up a can worms? Now before the tar and feathers come out, I'm not saying that in the scheme of things it doesn't make sense when building certain weapons (shuriken is not one of them, imo). But as this agrument shows, it added an extra wrinkle that would be avoided if you kept HKA-hand only and RKA-ranged only. And this would make the HA cannot be ranged except with GM permission in heroic games, go away.[/quote']

 

No 'tar and feathers' here! I've pretty much switched over to the RKA w/the STR adds damage advantage for thrown weapons. This is another 'can of worms' though, because some thrown weapons can be used in melee. I prefer to build these as a multipower with a HKA for melee and a RKA for throwing; it keeps people honest about what type of attack they're using, which skill levels, modifiers, talents, etc. apply to it, and which ones don't.

[Escafarc]

Re: Weaponmaster of the Knife

 

No 'tar and feathers' here! I've pretty much switched over to the RKA w/the STR adds damage advantage for thrown weapons. This is another 'can of worms' though' date=' because some thrown weapons can be used in melee. I prefer to build these as a multipower with a HKA for melee and a RKA for throwing; it keeps people honest about what type of attack they're using, which skill levels, modifiers, talents, etc. apply to it, and which ones [i']don't[/i].

 

This is what I do most of the time and since I use Resorce Points for my all my Heroic level games most of the time this is the cheaper way to go too.

[Vondy]

Re: Weaponmaster of the Knife

 

I'd allow it.