Fantasy Hero vs Pulp Hero

[RJB]

Brightly Rosewater: Greetings! I am Brightly Rosewater, half-elven heir to the emerald petal throne of far-off Grjhosdfghj. My debating opponent is Gronads the Uncouth. Say hello, Gronads!

 

Gronads: grunt

 

Brightly Rosewater: That will have to do, I suppose. In any case, our debate today will be about the relative merits of Tolkenian high fantasy (grand scale struggles of good and evil with elves! Yay!) vs the pulp fantasy that was typical of the 1930s (bar fights and buxom wenches! No elves! Boo!) As I am far more articulate, I shall begin. High fantasy's treatment of women is to put them safely on a pedestal and out of harm's way, not slobby-drooly lusting after them while they're entangled in some tentacle monster! I say...yaaaarrrgh! OMFG!! WHAT ARE YOU DOING!!! Help! Help! Gronads is eating my liver! Get him off! Get him off! NOOOO!!!!

 

Gronads: Anybody got any onions?

 

Due to technical difficulties, our debate ends here.

[kahuna's bro]

Re: Fantasy Hero vs Pulp Hero

 

lol

good one

[Susano]

Re: Fantasy Hero vs Pulp Hero

 

I hate to tell you, but Tolkien has elves... ahem, has an elf, fighting off something like a platoon of balrogs. So as much as I like Conan... ahem, "Gronads", he'd get his head handed to him by some of the elven heroes from the Simarillion.

[Lord Liaden]

Re: Fantasy Hero vs Pulp Hero

 

Ecthelion of Gondolin slew Gothmog, the Lord of Balrogs, in single combat, although he was killed by Gothmog as well. The Noldorin High King, Fingolfin, took on Morgoth himself (first Dark Lord, Tolkien's equivalent to Lucifer) and wounded him seven times.

 

So yeah, Tolkien's First Age Elves were as badass as fantasy gets.

[RJB]

Re: Fantasy Hero vs Pulp Hero

 

pfft. You two missed the point entirely. It's not about who can beat who, it's about slobby-drooling at buxom wenches while some elf composes a 3,000 verse song about how he feels about it. For great fantasy, give me 'Red Nails'. For a sure fire cure for insomnia give me 'The Two Towers' and a warm glass of milk.

[Susano]

Re: Fantasy Hero vs Pulp Hero

 

pfft. You two missed the point entirely. It's not about who can beat who' date=' it's about slobby-drooling at buxom wenches while some elf composes a 3,000 verse song about how he feels about it. For great fantasy, give me 'Red Nails'. For a sure fire cure for insomnia give me 'The Two Towers' and a warm glass of milk.[/quote']

 

Seeing as I like both "Red Nails" and LOTR, I'm not sure I see your point.

[Lord Liaden]

Re: Fantasy Hero vs Pulp Hero

 

Sounds like the point is that RJB is a slobby drooler.

[Vondy]

Re: Fantasy Hero vs Pulp Hero

 

I hate to tell you' date=' but Tolkien has elves... ahem, has [b']an[/b] elf, fighting off something like a platoon of balrogs. So as much as I like Conan... ahem, "Gronads", he'd get his head handed to him by some of the elven heroes from the Simarillion.

 

Many of the elves in the Simarillion are akin to the characters in the first chapters of the bible. They are mythic archetypes. They are older than dirt. They saw "eden," speak directly to God and his angels, and saw Eden. Having Conan take one of the Elves from the Simarillion on is like having Eric the Viking go head to head with Cain. Or Adam himself. He's simply out of his mythic league. The Elves from the Simarillion are all Draco in Leather Pants with Badass stamped on them in all caps. This is not to say Conan isn't epic in every way. Its just, he's not creation myth epic. On the other hand, some of the later Elves. Meh. He could take them.

[Lord Liaden]

Re: Fantasy Hero vs Pulp Hero

 

I see your point, Vondy, and "touch of the divine" is definitely a big part of what makes the First Age Elves so potent and terrible. Galadriel was actually born in the West and raised among the Valar before the sun was made, and Elrond has the blood of the godlike Maiar in his veins.

 

Mind you, Adam and Cain aren't known for being formidable combatants. But Samson, Gilgamesh, Heracles, Achilles, Beowulf, Siegfried, Vainomoinen... Tolkien drew heavily from European mythic traditions, and that's the class of hero we're playing in.

[Susano]

Re: Fantasy Hero vs Pulp Hero

 

Many of the elves in the Simarillion are akin to the characters in the first chapters of the bible. They are mythic archetypes. They are older than dirt. They saw "eden' date='" speak directly to God and his angels, and saw Eden. Having Conan take one of the Elves from the Simarillion on is like having Eric the Viking go head to head with Cain. Or Adam himself. He's simply out of his mythic league. The Elves from the Simarillion are all Draco in Leather Pants with Badass stamped on them in all caps. This is not to say Conan isn't epic in every way. Its just, he's not creation myth epic. On the other hand, some of the later Elves. Meh. He could take them.[/quote']

 

That I can believe.

 

I'll also point out that in the Celtic myths, where you have guys single-handedly fight off small armies all by their lonesomes, these same heroes would compose long poems about their deeds and how badass they were.

 

So think it's all a matter of perspective.

[Vondy]

Re: Fantasy Hero vs Pulp Hero

 

Mind you' date=' Adam and Cain aren't known for being formidable combatants.[/quote']

 

Known by whom? There are some over the top folklore about Cain and Abel's deadly conflict that would indicate otherwise. Let alone Moses, for whom there are clear parallels from the midrashim to the early S&S Superman comics. He leaps over mountains, hurls boulders that stop up rivers, and grows to giant size in his battle with Og of Bashan. All allegory, of course, but its there. Or Esau. Known in the bible as a slayer of men. Or Jacob, who overcame an angel in personal combat. The fact that most people can't read Jewish folklore doesn't mean there isn't a rich tradition about many of these figures that would short-circuit your mental processes if you read them. Like Judah confronting Joseph when he threatened to take Benjamin (before revealing himself as their brother) causing "all the pillars of Pharaoh's palace to shake and crack." Say what?! In the folklore of their native culture many of these figures are portrayed as mythic class supermen.

[Lord Liaden]

Re: Fantasy Hero vs Pulp Hero

 

Point taken. My apologies and thanks for enlightening me.

[RexMundi]

Re: Fantasy Hero vs Pulp Hero

 

Known by whom? There are some over the top folklore about Cain and Abel's deadly conflict that would indicate otherwise. Let alone Moses' date=' for whom there are clear parallels from the midrashim to the early S&S Superman comics. He leaps over mountains, hurls boulders that stop up rivers, and grows to giant size in his battle with Og of Bashan. All allegory, of course, but its there. Or Esau. Known in the bible as a slayer of men. Or Jacob, who overcame an angel in personal combat. The fact that most people can't read Jewish folklore doesn't mean there isn't a rich tradition about many of these figures that would short-circuit your mental processes if you read them. Like Judah confronting Joseph when he threatened to take Benjamin (before revealing himself as their brother) causing "all the pillars of Pharaoh's palace to shake and crack." [i']Say what?! [/i]In the folklore of their native culture many of these figures are portrayed as mythic class supermen.

 

Jewish Folklore is ripe with things to swipe for a game. Dynamite Comics for example has done a GREAT job, with Samson. DC comics had the Seraph, whom was a very interesting take on a "gestalt" character (One that mixes a lot of things together to utilize)...Seraph should be showing up again here soon as well to wrap up things from the Cry for Justice.....

 

My only gripe, is that a lot of this Folklore is language specific, and folks don't seem to want to share their good stuff, heh. The Russians have great folklore as well, good luck finding it in anything other then Russian, and the list goes on and on....Folks need to share more, heh.

 

~Rex

[Vondy]

Re: Fantasy Hero vs Pulp Hero

 

My only gripe, is that a lot of this Folklore is language specific, and folks don't seem to want to share their good stuff, heh. The Russians have great folklore as well, good luck finding it in anything other then Russian, and the list goes on and on....Folks need to share more, heh.

 

~Rex

 

Lewis Ginsburg did do a translation of some of hagadda and midrashim. I would describe it imprecise and abridged. As was often the case with Jewish translations in his generation and demographic, it was more important to appear scholarly to gentiles than do the material justice. He makes no attempt to classify the material being examined, or to provide context, or to identify what he left out. Also, large sections of haggada are from an era of transitioning from strictly oral tradition to written record. The two traditions have different methodologies. In an oral tradition the ebb and flow of discussion, and digressions within it, are of great importance to its overall meaning. Cut stuff out or cherry pick or turn it into a metaphor-grab-bag and you get nonsense, or warped conclusions. Also, I take issue with his blanket classification of all haggadic material "folklore." Some of it is strictly folklore, but it also contains epigrams, parables, symbols, and homilies. Truth clothed in ciphers. The vast majority of haggada is folklore with a point. With that preamble...

 

Legends of the Jews, by Ginsburg

[RexMundi]

Re: Fantasy Hero vs Pulp Hero

 

Yeah but there HAS to be a better translated Folklore collection then the stuff by Ginsburg. I suppose it's a good start, but the points you made are rampant through that whole thing.......Need an Unabridged translated edition for all of us goyim out here.

 

~Rex....see's potential here.

[Tasha]

Re: Fantasy Hero vs Pulp Hero

 

That I can believe.

 

I'll also point out that in the Celtic myths, where you have guys single-handedly fight off small armies all by their lonesomes, these same heroes would compose long poems about their deeds and how badass they were.

 

So think it's all a matter of perspective.

 

Wow, it's like gangsta Rap without the ho's and drugs.

[RexMundi]

Re: Fantasy Hero vs Pulp Hero

 

Oh no....plenty of that in there to.

 

~Rex

[Susano]

Re: Fantasy Hero vs Pulp Hero

 

Oh no....plenty of that in there to.

 

~Rex

 

*thinks*

 

Pretty much, yeah.

[Susano]

Re: Fantasy Hero vs Pulp Hero

 

Wow' date=' it's like gangsta Rap without the ho's and drugs.[/quote']

 

Oh how about the Norse, who would have skalds make poems about how they did these great deeds, and killed that, and fought here, and took that treasure, and sailed here and there, and fought monsters, and....

[Vondy]

Re: Fantasy Hero vs Pulp Hero

 

Yeah but there HAS to be a better translated Folklore collection then the stuff by Ginsburg. I suppose it's a good start, but the points you made are rampant through that whole thing.......Need an Unabridged translated edition for all of us goyim out here.

 

~Rex....see's potential here.

 

The Talmud has been translated, with varying degrees of success, and as such, the haggadah within is in translation. It has not been gathered into one compilation, however, as the eminently useful Aramaic-Hebrew Ein Yaakov does. As such you have to know where to look, which requires you be at least passably conversant in the Talmud, which is unlikely outside the seminary world. I admit its not very helpful. The midrashim, however, remain largely untranslated. This is because midrashim, like rabbinic commentaries on the text of the bible itself, are considered intermediate to advanced level homiletics. Translation to English has only been a major thrust in the orthodox world for the past fifteen years or so. Its a byproduct of the kiruv (outreach and education) movement having taken hold. I wouldn't hold one's breath in terms of seeing midrashim compiled, or an Ein Yaakov style translation of the Talmud's haggada. There are a lot of people doing a lot of good work, but its largely on Talmud, Halacha, and straight bible commentary. I may do a show/podcast that deals with bible from the perspective of both commentaries and midrashim, but its down the road.

[Vondy]

Re: Fantasy Hero vs Pulp Hero

 

Oh how about the Norse' date=' who would have skalds make poems about how they did these great deeds, and killed that, and fought here, and took that treasure, and said here and there, and fought monsters, and....[/quote']

 

I enjoy the Eddas, personally.

[Susano]

Re: Fantasy Hero vs Pulp Hero

 

I enjoy the Eddas' date=' personally.[/quote']

 

Them too.

 

One of the eddas has one of the greatest quotes ever, which runs briefly like this:

 

Vikings are attacking a house. One viking goes up to the door and gets an axe to the face for his trouble. He returns to his companions and is asked "Is [our target] home?" His reply?

 

"That I cannot say, but his axe sure is."

[RexMundi]

Re: Fantasy Hero vs Pulp Hero

 

Hmmm.....All the good stuff is being Horded methinks.

 

~Rex

[Lord Liaden]

Re: Fantasy Hero vs Pulp Hero

 

Interestingly enough, the great online Encyclopedia Mythica has a pretty sizeable area devoted to "Judaic Mythology:" http://www.pantheon.org/areas/mythology/middle_east/judaic/articles.html

 

Highly abridged, of course, but probably a decent place for interested goyim to start.

[RexMundi]

Re: Fantasy Hero vs Pulp Hero

 

Yeah I've used that a couple of times. I suppose I just want something like an Unabridged Bullfinch's Mythology, For the Entire Worlds Folklore.

 

~Rex