Scale of Detail in HERO gaming

[Hyper-Man]

I think one of the greatest strengths and also greatest points of confusion in HERO is how easy it is to adapt the rules to nearly any scale of measurement. The measurement can be anything: power & realism are the most common but detail is just as valid and often overlooked.

 

Some might look at "detail" and "realism" and say they are the same thing. I disagree. You can have a "realistic" tone game that uses bleeding & hit location game play rules but character construction can still be rather simple. The reverse is also true.

 

I think that differences in the scale or level of detail in character construction between GM's and Players as well as Players and other Players is the real root cause of frustration and arguments that occur during games.

 

Comments welcome.

[torchwolf]

Re: Scale of Detail in HERO gaming

 

Detail vs Realism: Much is discussed about realism in game mechanics, but less about detail.

 

I think this applies very much to Skills, Perks, and Talents, and to Complications/Disadvantages.

IME, the "Character Sheet As Contract" (6E2 270) definitions can receive less attention than the usual Campaign Tone "Realism" definition.

This might be an issue of time constraints - having the GM examine all PC character sheets and backgrounds to analyze whether the players' expectations will likely be met in the campaign, and the resulting player-GM discussions. All this requires a bit of time dedicated by players, even more so by the GM.

 

Ideally, players should have the freedom to create nearly any character that would fit into the campaign, while the GM should make sure points are not spent on things that will not be very useful during the campaign (including points "spent" on Complications/Disadvantages). Depending on preferences, this might mean a few Skills being either free or expanded in size (AK: Senegal might be less useful in some campaigns, and may be either free or expanded to AK: Africa and incorporating Geography, History and Politics).

Of course this will be impossible to guarantee, but IME it should be at least attempted.

 

In 5ER, this is viewed a bit differently: "Building Balanced Characters" (5ER 546-547) approaches it from the other direction, recommending the purchase of some "useless Skills" and encouraging the GM to provide situations where those Skills can be used. The end result would be the same, but 5ER and 6E approaches the issue slightly differently, possibly affecting the way characters are built under either of these premises. It would probably be wise to have an consensus between GM and players of how to view this issue.

 

I think that differences in the scale or level of detail in character construction between GM's and Players as well as Players and other Players is the real root cause of frustration and arguments that occur during games.

Agreed, campaign foundations are built on the collective expectations of GM and players, and if these differ, frustration and possibly arguments are bound to occur.

 

 

Detail vs Realism might also apply to how Skills, Talents, Perks, and even Characteristics and Powers, are used during the game. A realistic campaign that abstracts much is likely to feel less realistic than one which puts detail into descriptions of the use of abilities, even if it applies only to the results of such uses.

[Hyper-Man]

Re: Scale of Detail in HERO gaming

 

Thanks for the reply.

 

Seriously though... no other comments?

[BeZurKur]

Re: Scale of Detail in HERO gaming

 

There is a lot here to unpack and can go in a lot of different directions.

 

The distinction of detail versus realism is valid, just as you can make an argument for detail versus fiction (or campaign's physics/realism being separate from our reality). Consider Torchwolf's comparison of 5ed and 6ed, but take it all the way back to the original Champions. That game is an example of detail versus fiction. At the time, it was only a supers game and not a generic system. It gave up detail (a small fraction of skills/powers) to convey a particular type of fiction: comicbook. It only attributed a cost to certain skills, while defaulting to a char roll for the others. I'd much rather do a write-up for Batman in that edition than in anything that followed. The lack of detail helped convey the tone for the fiction or campaign's reality. As the game became more generic, it offered more details that the general community felt obligated to use. 6ed is not only contrary to 5ed, but it also harkens back to a 1ed philosophy: some skills are free because they don't impact the fiction in a consistently reliable way. That is detail versus fiction. However, you can run Hero with just the basic book and a truncated skill list for a lighter version with all the flavor. Depending on the campaign's focus, it may be better.

[Hyper-Man]

Re: Scale of Detail in HERO gaming

 

Bumping for those who may have missed during holiday weekend.

[Ragitsu]

Re: Scale of Detail in HERO gaming

 

HERO might be able to do realism, but the granularity of realism, in this case, is fairly low.

 

However, for everything else, it is exceptionally capable.

[Hyper-Man]

Re: Scale of Detail in HERO gaming

 

one more bump attempt...

[ghost-angel]

Re: Scale of Detail in HERO gaming

 

This is what I get for extended leaves from the board.

 

One of the first things I try and get out of a GM, or help set up as a GM, is the level of detail for Knowledge Skills. Every game I play in they're moderately important - and it's really nice to know if the GM likes a broad stroke brush or a fine pencil line.

 

Sometimes in a game KS: Shapeshifters gets you everything, without penalties for specifics, because the GM wants a slightly more epic feel to what the characters know.

Sometimes you have to break that down into "Werebeasts" and "Skinwalkers" and the like or take large penalties to get specifics from a more broad skill. Here the GM is either wanting to focus on specific aspects, or desires characters to have limited or narrow knowledge.

 

A game I'm currently in one of the GMs decided that "Computer Programming" did way way too much. So we split it out into "Computer Programming"; "Hacking"; "Networks"; and "SS: Computer Engineering" - By the same token we felt Systems Operation had too many subcategories and reduced them to "Communications Equipment"; "Medical Equipment"; "Sensory Equipment" and one or two others I can't recall off the top of my head.

 

It really is nice that the Hero System easily adapts these ideas into campaign specific needs without needing to readjust the system in any way. At most you're adjusting how and when you apply penalties to various skills. And that's just skills - there are other areas too... but I don't have time ATM to go into it all in detail (ha!)....

[Christopher]

Re: Scale of Detail in HERO gaming

 

HERO might be able to do realism' date=' but the granularity of realism, in this case, is fairly low.[/quote']

I see this too. Especially with Characteristics based rolls one +1 regulary means +10% chance. D&D at lesat featured 5% steps. Warhammer RPG's even go down to 1% (but modifiers tend to be multiples of 5% anyway)

 

Hero it tends towards the unrealistic, undetailed cinematic approach. When trying taking a look on how to convert Dark Heresy Character to Hero sheet I noticed: there is now way to go as low with the success chance, without modifying the base rules first (the staring points for skills needed to be way lower).

 

Also, non-Combat Skills are the area with the least examples overall. With the exception of Language, there is no example for non-combat Skill use (only one about how to buy the skill). The Perqs and Talents are equally in short supply of non-combat examples. So these definition are deliberately left to the GM and players, I think.

On the other hand, powers are literally flooded with examples (2-3 for each power).

[Hyper-Man]

Re: Scale of Detail in HERO gaming

 

I see this too. Especially with Characteristics based rolls one +1 regulary means +10% chance. D&D at lesat featured 5% steps. Warhammer RPG's even go down to 1% (but modifiers tend to be multiples of 5% anyway)

 

Hero it tends towards the unrealistic, undetailed cinematic approach. When trying taking a look on how to convert Dark Heresy Character to Hero sheet I noticed: there is now way to go as low with the success chance, without modifying the base rules first (the staring points for skills needed to be way lower).

 

Also, non-Combat Skills are the area with the least examples overall. With the exception of Language, there is no example for non-combat Skill use (only one about how to buy the skill). The Perqs and Talents are equally in short supply of non-combat examples. So these definition are deliberately left to the GM and players, I think.

On the other hand, powers are literally flooded with examples (2-3 for each power).

 

Again, realism and detail are related but distinct.

5e Ultimate Skill deals with many of the issues you raise as well. If it is ever updated to 6e I plan on buying it.

[Christopher]

Re: Scale of Detail in HERO gaming

 

Again, realism and detail are related but distinct.

5e Ultimate Skill deals with many of the issues you raise as well. If it is ever updated to 6e I plan on buying it.

The problem is, there is no natural detail with the powers. Only those with a Required Roll (inlcuding all Attack Powers) might have some inate detail.

But most other details simply don't show up on "Valuable Limitation" radar. The entirety of "Real Weapon" is only a -1/4 (and that includes the "no more than double DC rule").

Many things that would have an effect on Power/Spell cost in different systems, are simply not enough to get you any points back in Hero.

 

Hero focuses entirely on the balance/big scale of cinematic things. It has a very high "upper limit" (nearly infinite or at leastaround 1.000), wich automatically means it has a high lower limit it can detail. It may have values for low powered normals, but at that level the limits are son confining that they can hardly diversify much.

 

As for Skill Detail:

That will cost a lot with RAW. 3 character Points may be less than 1% of a Superheroes Starting Points. But it is easily 3% for a 100 Point normal.

A character that buys 20 Skill on Characteristics based Roll spend 60(!) character points on this. And he still needs the characterstics to make them more than 11- Rolls.

[torchwolf]

Re: Scale of Detail in HERO gaming

 

Again, realism and detail are related but distinct.

5e Ultimate Skill deals with many of the issues you raise as well. If it is ever updated to 6e I plan on buying it.

Yes, that book is the most detailed handling of Skills I have seen

(in the decades I've spent comparing this aspect of various games).

 

Hero System Skills is the 6E update (only in pdf as yet, but still):

https://www.herogames.com/viewItem.htm?itemID=251552

[torchwolf]

Re: Scale of Detail in HERO gaming

 

The problem is, there is no natural detail with the powers. Only those with a Required Roll (inlcuding all Attack Powers) might have some inate detail.

But most other details simply don't show up on "Valuable Limitation" radar. The entirety of "Real Weapon" is only a -1/4 (and that includes the "no more than double DC rule").

Many things that would have an effect on Power/Spell cost in different systems, are simply not enough to get you any points back in Hero.

 

Hero focuses entirely on the balance/big scale of cinematic things. It has a very high "upper limit" (nearly infinite or at leastaround 1.000), wich automatically means it has a high lower limit it can detail. It may have values for low powered normals, but at that level the limits are son confining that they can hardly diversify much.

Repricing might solve this, but that's a rather long discussion in itself which has already generated more than a few threads here, so that might derail the thread a bit.

 

As for Skill Detail:

That will cost a lot with RAW. 3 character Points may be less than 1% of a Superheroes Starting Points. But it is easily 3% for a 100 Point normal.

A character that buys 20 Skill on Characteristics based Roll spend 60(!) character points on this. And he still needs the characterstics to make them more than 11- Rolls.

Repricing of Skills, changing how much they are based on Characteristics, and expanding/subdividing Skill functions are extensively discussed in Hero System Skills (and in the 5E version Ultimate Skill).

As Ice9 mentioned in another thread, an optional way to encourage the use of "Background Skills" would be to add a pool of 20-30 (or more) only usable for purchasing non-combat, background related Skills.

[Ragitsu]

Re: Scale of Detail in HERO gaming

 

I can aim for realism, but the rules are the rules (in that the level of granularity around the "realistic" level is fairly coarse).

 

Then again, HERO is very capable once you get beyond that.

[Hyper-Man]

Re: Scale of Detail in HERO gaming

 

re: combat detail

 

A 'detailed' supers game might require that everything a player expects from a given special effect be built with HERO mechanics.

 

Example: from my starting version of Superman

 

Heat Vision: Killing Attack - Ranged 1d6, Area Of Effect Accurate (1m Radius; +1/2), No Range Modifier (+1/2), Constant (+1/2), +2 Increased STUN Multiplier (+1/2), Penetrating (x2; +1) (60 Active Points); Can Be Deflected (-1/4), No Knockback (-1/4) Real Cost: 30 [(VPP) all slots Limited Power Not in the presence of Kryptonite or red solar radiation (-1/4), Unified Power (-1/4)]

 

An attack ability with the word 'Vision' in the name implies that it can virtually hit anything the user can actually 'see'. This is a 'detailed' combat power build.

It's function is not dependent on whether the campaign is using 'realistic' optional rules like Hit Locations.

 

For the same Real points it would be a simple matter to just build a 3d6 RKA without any Modifiers beyond the 'VPP all slots' ones. This would be an example of a far less detailed or granular build.

[ghost-angel]

Re: Scale of Detail in HERO gaming

 

Costs can be adjusted by shifting how many starting character points you have - no need to change things. If you want a great level of Detail in you Skill Set and you also want characters to have a great level of knowledge you don't adjust the cost of skills, you give the characters more points. The style of game, and possibly even "X Points are designated for Y Abilities only" guidelines will help govern the direction of the spending.

 

Hero can go into an incredible level of detail if you need it to, it can also back off and leave things extremely wide open. This has nothing to do with how much something costs, it has more to do with how many resources you give players to work with.

[Manic Typist]

Re: Scale of Detail in HERO gaming

 

... With the exception of Language, there is no example for non-combat Skill use (only one about how to buy the skill)...

 

....except that's just literally not true.

[Guest steamteck]

Re: Scale of Detail in HERO gaming

 

....except that's just literally not true.

 

You beat me to it. I obviously got a better edition of 5th than he did.

[Christopher]

Re: Scale of Detail in HERO gaming

 

....except that's just literally not true.

Talking about 6E. We got only get examples for Combat Skills, Skill used in Combat (like Breakfall, Acrobatics to get back up), Pricing and Language in the entire Skill section.

[Manic Typist]

Re: Scale of Detail in HERO gaming

 

Talking about 6E.

 

So was I.

Professional Skill, Sleight of Hand, Streetwise, Survival, Science Skill, the list goes on.....

[Escafarc]

Re: Scale of Detail in HERO gaming

 

Not really understanding what you want but 6E1 pages 56-59 has examples of using non-combat skills and the HERO System Skills Book goes in to great detail for each one.

[Christopher]

Re: Scale of Detail in HERO gaming

 

So was I.

Professional Skill, Sleight of Hand, Streetwise, Survival, Science Skill, the list goes on.....

In Order: No Example, No Example, No Example, No Example and finally No Example.

 

Sorry if you see examples for the use of non-combat Skills and ones noting difficulty examples, but I certainly don't see them.

[Christopher]

Re: Scale of Detail in HERO gaming

 

Not really understanding what you want but 6E1 pages 56-59 has examples of using non-combat skills and the HERO System Skills Book goes in to great detail for each one.

It has examples for pricing and ones for Combat Use (Contortionsit to escape Grabs), but not one example for regarding "action X would be a Easy Task".

[ghost-angel]

Re: Scale of Detail in HERO gaming

 

What's an "Easy Task" for a skill would vary from campaign to campaign based on setting based knowledge, ability to learn skills, time frame involved.

 

It'd need a whole book to go over the possibilities. Something like... The Ultimate Skill.

 

weird that.