Narf the Mouse Posted August 19, 2010 Report Share Posted August 19, 2010 Re: 6E books question... bit confused on what to buy... Sorry, Bigby. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kraven Kor Posted August 19, 2010 Author Report Share Posted August 19, 2010 Re: 6E books question... bit confused on what to buy... Sorry' date=' Bigby.[/quote'] And I'm not upset at all, I've seen this on a dozen message boards and never understood it really. While I know "the question has been answered before," I equate it to asking what time it is. Sure, I could go find a clock, but if someone with a watch is right there, I'll ask them. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RexMundi Posted August 19, 2010 Report Share Posted August 19, 2010 Re: 6E books question... bit confused on what to buy... I never sweat it, I just assume there's a waiting line that the folks hang out in just so they can type those words. Granted two, often those words have been helpful because they give me the link to go find the info I didn't see previously, so it's all good. ~Rex Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Nolgroth Posted August 20, 2010 Report Share Posted August 20, 2010 Re: 6E books question... bit confused on what to buy... I tend to answer questions. Even though the answer is there somewhere, I know I don't like searching all over the place for the answers. It doesn't hurt me to answer a question. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
prestidigitator Posted August 20, 2010 Report Share Posted August 20, 2010 Re: 6E books question... bit confused on what to buy... I answer questions because it makes me sound like a know-it-all (or an idiot; one or the other). And I like to hear myself speak (err...watch myself type?). Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Hyper-Man Posted August 20, 2010 Report Share Posted August 20, 2010 Re: 6E books question... bit confused on what to buy... And I'm not upset at all' date=' I've seen this on a dozen message boards and never understood it really. While I know "the question has been answered before," I equate it to asking what time it is. Sure, I could go find a clock, but if someone with a watch is right there, I'll ask them.[/quote'] Yeah, but some questions have been asked so many times it sometimes seems like they are asking "where is the exit?" At some point it gets old saying "It's over there, under the big red EXIT sign." I like helping people learn the rules. I occasionally get tired of giving free web search 101 lessons. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Hyper-Man Posted August 20, 2010 Report Share Posted August 20, 2010 Re: 6E books question... bit confused on what to buy... 6E Core Books vs. Basic Rulebook This took less than a minute to find from the HERO Games Product Line forum. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bigbywolfe Posted August 20, 2010 Report Share Posted August 20, 2010 Re: 6E books question... bit confused on what to buy... When I posted, the question had already been answered in this very thread. I thought I was adding additional information that would be useful for anyone with questions about any products. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RexMundi Posted August 20, 2010 Report Share Posted August 20, 2010 Re: 6E books question... bit confused on what to buy... Yep actually, I spotted out your post to a few other folks I knew looking for stuff that aren't really forum concious. It's always nice when folks provide the links and or street signs. ~Rex Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bigbywolfe Posted August 20, 2010 Report Share Posted August 20, 2010 Re: 6E books question... bit confused on what to buy... I guess I could of put a link. Chalk it up to laziness on my part. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
prestidigitator Posted August 20, 2010 Report Share Posted August 20, 2010 Re: 6E books question... bit confused on what to buy... There's also a difference between reading the official message and asking for people's honest experiences and opinions. If you're tired of reading the question, there's always the BACK button right in the corner of your browser window.... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RexMundi Posted August 20, 2010 Report Share Posted August 20, 2010 Re: 6E books question... bit confused on what to buy... I prefer to ask the folks myself, often they come up with stuff I missed. ~Rex Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RavenX99 Posted August 21, 2010 Report Share Posted August 21, 2010 Re: 6E books question... bit confused on what to buy... This is probably the 20th time I've seen this question asked and at least the 2nd or 3rd thread dedicated specifically to it. You'd be surprised at how hard it is to locate those threads via search when you've never seen them. I looked, and I couldn't find a thread that answered the question as clearly as this one did. And my Google Fu is actually pretty strong, but the names of the books are very common and the question is a little vague to pin down in search terms. And RavenX99, I didn't "blame the customer" for anything. Okay, if you say so. If you didn't think about how your words came across, nothing further I say will help. Shouting someone down for simply trying to help isn't the best way to make fans either. Nobody's shouting. You're just in all-out defense mode at this point, trying to shift all the blame to me for the way your words came across. I assume you're already a fan of the system and the community. We are not equals here. You are the established member of the community, and I am the newcomer. You have a responsibility to the community that I do not. (In fact, I'm a second-class citizen here, unable to fill in even basic profile information or set some preferences, restricted from having an avatar or sig, forced to fill in a Captcha for every post. Before I even start participating, I already feel like I'm not quite welcome here, treated as a user who has broken the rules before I've even done anything. I have to admit, I probably would have shrugged your comment off and left it unanswered if I wasn't watching that post counter that says I gotta have twenty good posts before the system stops treating me like a criminal. I really feel weird posting without getting to put on my "face" first. ) Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Hyper-Man Posted August 21, 2010 Report Share Posted August 21, 2010 Re: 6E books question... bit confused on what to buy... Did that, in every place I could find them. The descriptions are inadequate to explain just how Basic and APG relate to SE1/SE2. When a potential customer claims confusion over product choice, blaming the customer is not a reaction prone to create a fan. Your choice of words seem to imply that the "established member(s) of the community" somehow = owners of the company. I wish it were true. We are just fans who enjoy discussing the system. We have hashed out nearly every HERO concept imaginable in multiple threads. Maybe the search functions of the current board are not as intuitive as they could be. It took the regulars a little while to get used to them after the latest board update. Imho, for a system as established as HERO, it should almost be assumed that nearly any question you can think to ask has already been asked before in some form or another. And as I already pointed out a basic search with the keywords: 6E Core Books vs. Basic Rulebook found that very thread (it's the 4th one from the top). Expecting newcomers to do a little basic searching before posting questions is not unreasonable. And looking at it another way, the OP got a quick response. The other alternative is getting ignored (which does occasionally happen to some threads). Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bigbywolfe Posted August 21, 2010 Report Share Posted August 21, 2010 Re: 6E books question... bit confused on what to buy... (In fact' date=' I'm a second-class citizen here, unable to fill in even basic profile information or set some preferences, restricted from having an avatar or sig, forced to fill in a Captcha for every post. Before I even start participating, I already feel like I'm not quite welcome here, treated as a user who has broken the rules before I've even done anything. I have to admit, I probably would have shrugged your comment off and left it unanswered if I wasn't watching that post counter that says I gotta have twenty good posts before the system stops treating me like a criminal. I really feel weird posting without getting to put on my "face" first. )[/quote'] Well after reading that I'm going to have trouble taking anything you ever say seriously. You've never been on a forum that had safety measures to reduce/prevent spamming before? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Narf the Mouse Posted August 21, 2010 Report Share Posted August 21, 2010 Re: 6E books question... bit confused on what to buy... Compared to most forums, this one has a lot of locks. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Hyper-Man Posted August 21, 2010 Report Share Posted August 21, 2010 Re: 6E books question... bit confused on what to buy... Compared to most forums' date=' this one has a lot of locks.[/quote'] The alternative to having locks on the doors is to have a lot more doormen and although we have what appears to be a lot of moderators they are volunteers. I think we have a lot less flame wars (if any really) than other forums. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bigbywolfe Posted August 21, 2010 Report Share Posted August 21, 2010 Re: 6E books question... bit confused on what to buy... Compared to most forums' date=' this one has a lot of locks.[/quote'] Yeah, and? No one is being singled out. It's not like the company is hazing the "new guys". The fact that we have higher security here is a bad thing? And even if you think it is, it's a total thread de-rail. It has nothing to do with the OP or with his complaint against me. EDIT: I should probably apologize for adding to the thread derail as well. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
prestidigitator Posted August 21, 2010 Report Share Posted August 21, 2010 Re: 6E books question... bit confused on what to buy... The induction period here really isn't that onerous. Believe me. I've been to places where it is WAAAAAY worse, and less (though still) worth it besides. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RexMundi Posted August 21, 2010 Report Share Posted August 21, 2010 Re: 6E books question... bit confused on what to buy... Hmm...I barely remember my Probie period.......I was out of it so fast that it just went by in a blink, heh. I wouldn't call it Second Class material though, it's just a way to weed out certain things without having to root through TONS of other things to hide in. More of an Admin thing. Besides I like the Probies. ~Rex Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
IndianaJoe3 Posted August 21, 2010 Report Share Posted August 21, 2010 Re: 6E books question... bit confused on what to buy... I don't recall any probationary period. However, I was pretty active (back in the day) on the mailing list, so one of the admins may have recognized me. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RavenX99 Posted August 22, 2010 Report Share Posted August 22, 2010 Re: 6E books question... bit confused on what to buy... Your choice of words seem to imply that the "established member(s) of the community" somehow = owners of the company. No, just that fans make more fans. I am a "customer" in terms of "selling" me on the system and the community. The fan community is Hero Games' greatest marketing asset. Sorry, I've been involved in managing multiple online forums since 1986, including another RPG fan community for 12 of those years. I tend to think a lot about the role of the fan in terms of the success of a game system and the publisher, and that community members have a responsibility to the community, but I can forget that most fans really don't think about it, or care about it. I'm projecting my value system onto others here, and I shouldn't be doing that. bigbywolfe, my apologies for being pushy. I'm not really being the best of newcomers here. And as I already pointed out a basic search with the keywords: 6E Core Books vs. Basic Rulebook found that very thread (it's the 4th one from the top). Expecting newcomers to do a little basic searching before posting questions is not unreasonable. Certainly not unreasonable. It can be pretty frustrating when they do that (and I've dealt with newbies who come right out and say, "Yeah, but searching is too much effort, it's just easier to ask for the answer I want." I've spent a lot of time not just trying to teach them to fish, but trying to instill the value that learning to fish for oneself is desirable, valuable, and ultimately necessary.) But that thread didn't mention the APG at all, which was a part of the OP's question. I found that thread, but it did not answer my question (which was unspoken, but basically the same as the OP). I think it's worth noting that to the person reading the question, a new post and an old thread may look like the same question... but to the person posting the new question, they may not be the same question. A little more info: I actually own PDFs of the BR and the APG. I got them as a special-offer bundle on RPGNow for, um... $10 back in January. The fact that BR and APG were bundled together seemed to imply that they went together... first you learn Basic, then you learn Advanced, that's how most RPG systems with Basic and Advanced titles work. My initial question (to myself) was just how much overlap there was between BR/APG and SE1/SE2. How much of the system did I now own, and how much was still to be had? I was rather surprised to find that BR was entirely a derivation of SE1/SE2, yet APG was all new material. Before I skimmed the APG, I half expected that Basic+APG would be the same material except split on different lines (beginner/experienced instead of characters/combat). $10 would have been a great deal for just the APG in PDF, but I was disappointed to discover that I still needed to buy both SE1 and SE2 to get all the rules. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RavenX99 Posted August 22, 2010 Report Share Posted August 22, 2010 Re: 6E books question... bit confused on what to buy... Well after reading that I'm going to have trouble taking anything you ever say seriously. There was nothing "not serious" about my response... I wasn't taking offense just to have something to argue about. I just normally don't voice my annoyance so readily. For the exact reason of what resulted... it doesn't do any good and tends to make things worse. Again, in case you missed it, my apologies for being pushy. It's not my place to "teach you a lesson" about how to treat newbies. You've never been on a forum that had safety measures to reduce/prevent spamming before? Sure, I've been managing online services since back before spam was invented. I've never been on a forum that has such draconic measures against spam, treating new members as if they have committed a major infraction. There are better ways to deal with it. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Hyper-Man Posted August 22, 2010 Report Share Posted August 22, 2010 Re: 6E books question... bit confused on what to buy... ... I was rather surprised to find that BR was entirely a derivation of SE1/SE2, yet APG was all new material. Before I skimmed the APG, I half expected that Basic+APG would be the same material except split on different lines (beginner/experienced instead of characters/combat). $10 would have been a great deal for just the APG in PDF, but I was disappointed to discover that I still needed to buy both SE1 and SE2 to get all the rules. As a regular who owns several editions worth of HERO (many going back to 1st in some form or another) I don't bother to look at the marketing side of things. To get roughly the same content that you did with APG and Basic in 5th edition required Sidekick plus several Ultimate or compilation books* (except Martial Artist which still got a 6th treatment) so you are still getting good value. DOJ (the owners) aren't really focusing the majority of their marketing towards players like me (I wouldn't really want them to) I want them to focus on the new fans. I just have no pretensions that I know better than they do how to accomplish that. Besides, several other regulars DO give their marketing advise. Me, I'm just here for the rules and a good conversation about them. And I like to help answer the crunchy 'how to' questions in HERO. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bigbywolfe Posted August 22, 2010 Report Share Posted August 22, 2010 Re: 6E books question... bit confused on what to buy... Again, in case you missed it, my apologies for being pushy. It's not my place to "teach you a lesson" about how to treat newbies. Didn't miss it. The post of mine you quoted was posted long before your apology. As a side note, the OP is not a "newbie" (in fact, he's been on the boards 5 years longer than I have) and he didn't seem to take offense to how I "treated" him either. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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