Presti's Weapon Rebuilds

[prestidigitator]

Re: Presti's Weapon Rebuilds

 

Huh. That's an interesting idea. Reduced Negation might well be a cheap way to show the difference. I don't know if I like changing the way all objects in the whole system are treated just for weapon rebuilds, but it just might be the best solution I've seen so far....

 

I also don't know how much I like Damage Negation in general except for the rare ability, mostly because of the complexity of changing the damage rolled based on a target's abilities and the transparency it gives to the strength and nature of the target's defenses. I WAS considering rebuilding armor as well, and giving different types of armor more or less defense versus different types of attack. For example, plate might have additional PD vs. edged and pointed weapons, and all the primarily metal armors should generally have lower ED than PD except vs. electricity (all the ED provided vs. non-electrical attacks should basically be due to whatever padded undergarments are worn with the main armor).

[AmadanNaBriona]

Re: Presti's Weapon Rebuilds

 

Huh. That's an interesting idea. Reduced Negation might well be a cheap way to show the difference. I don't know if I like changing the way all objects in the whole system are treated just for weapon rebuilds, but it just might be the best solution I've seen so far....

 

I also don't know how much I like Damage Negation in general except for the rare ability, mostly because of the complexity of changing the damage rolled based on a target's abilities and the transparency it gives to the strength and nature of the target's defenses. I WAS considering rebuilding armor as well, and giving different types of armor more or less defense versus different types of attack. For example, plate might have additional PD vs. edged and pointed weapons, and all the primarily metal armors should generally have lower ED than PD except vs. electricity (all the ED provided vs. non-electrical attacks should basically be due to whatever padded undergarments are worn with the main armor).

 

Yeah, as I was coming up with this I was realizing that integrating DN at such a basic campaign level was sort of a systemic paradigm shift, but I think it would work well. It'd integrate well with Size/Scale problems as well (to tie into the One Man Versus a Starship thread). I'm sort of digging this.

 

I agree about your approach to varying defenses, I've been considering the same. Another idea I've been toying with is building armor padding as 1/4 Stun Only Damage Reduction when worn in conjunction with armor

[Utech]

Re: Presti's Weapon Rebuilds

 

for every weapon on a weapons table' date=' there should be [i']some[/i] reason why someone would use it - even if the reason is that it's cheap or easy to make. I think you're already more or less explicitly embracing this idea anyway, but I think it bears repeating.

 

I'm not sure how much detail you're going into for general background information, but I agree that it's a good idea to differentiate weapons with some brief notes on the economic and/or social reasons why a PC or NPC might pick one weapon over another. Some examples:

 

• Material costs and/or the difficulty of construction may make swords difficult to afford while wooden staffs are plentiful.
  
• Certain weapons might become associated with women and thus shunned by men.
  
• Certain weapons might only be legally owned by people of a particular social status (nobleman, knight, priest, etc.)
  
• Certain weapons might be associated with the "wrong sort of people" (bandit, ninja, dark goddess worshipper, etc.) and get you arrested or attacked.
  

The fact that different weapons are . . . well . . . different, can be a running thread through a whole campaign. A PC might be generated with a great sword, have it destroyed, be unable to afford a new one, fall back on using a club, be mistaken for a robber, prove his goodness, be rewarded with a flail, use that to take out an evil soldier, take the soldier's bastard sword...

[prestidigitator]

Re: Presti's Weapon Rebuilds

 

It might be worth a quick note about historical fact and/or myths for ideas, but I don't want to presume too much what is going to be in a particular setting.

[Ninja-Bear]

Re: Presti's Weapon Rebuilds

 

This might be too much detail, but how about size. Or rather concealabilty factor. There is a reason why ladies carried a stiletto instead of a dirk.

[prestidigitator]

Re: Presti's Weapon Rebuilds

 

This might be too much detail' date=' but how about size. Or rather concealabilty factor. There is a reason why ladies carried a stiletto instead of a dirk.[/quote']

Well, I was actually thinking of making Concealment penalties a Side Effect of the weapon's length (Reach). Reach is cheap, and the side effect way too minor to really be of consideration for the weapon's main attack. Besides, it seems fitting and just. There may be a few short weapons that are still difficult to conceal, but those can be dealt with on a case-by-case basis. Very small weapons like the stiletto you mentioned can have an in-built bonus instead of a penalty.

[Toadmaster]

Re: Presti's Weapon Rebuilds

 

This was something I worked up a couple years ago. I never got a chance to play test it, but in many cases reverse engineered HERO weapons to find a way to build them.

This first section deals with the basic weight distribution / shape of the weapon. Balanced weapons are those that do not have a heavy weighted end (swords, small axes etc). Multiple / limited attacks does not relate to mechanics, but fighting style, light well balanced weapons like many swords allow quick attacks and feignts (multiple attacks) vs heavy weighted weapons that have to commit to an attack (limited attacks). This is not simply swords vs axes and maces, a small headed axe like a francisca could be balanced, multiple attacks, while a claymore would probably be balanced, limited and the classic fantasy double headed "battle axe" is unbalanced and limited.

Difficult to master kind of speaks for itself, and is a rather subjective thing. The - OCV does not imply any deficiency of the weapon, it is simply added to portray the added difficultly to learn the weapon (The first CSL is basically a part of the WF). I saw this as applying to weapons like Nunchucks, flails, whips etc and assume they would include special features to counter the added skill cost.

 

Balanced, multiple attacks +1 OCV

Balanced, limited attacks +0 OCV

Unbalanced, multiple attacks +0 OCV

Unbalanced, limited attacks -1 OCV

Difficult to master -1 OCV

 

 

The next batch deals with the shape, point of contact etc. Lever relates to swung weapons, swords, small clubs etc, a weighted lever would apply to hafted swung weapons, most fighting axes, maces, hammers etc. 1 1/2 an 2 handed is self explanitory. Blunt weapons have a reduced DC since they do not penetrate well, but as you seen later usually gain other benefits. Blunt weighted weapons gain penetrating (maces, hammers, generally not clubs), narrow sharp points add AP (picks, awls etc). Broad striking heads have reduced damage, but this primarily applies to tools, not weapons.

 

Lever +1 DC

Weighted lever +2 DC

1 ½ handed swung +1 DC

Two handed swung +2 DC

Blunt -1 DC

Blunt weight add Penetrating

Sharp point add Armor Piercing

Broad striking head -1 DC

 

 

This essentially breaks weapons down into a few basic categories, quick fast stabbing weapons (easier to hit, but less damage), quick slashing / chopping weapons easier to hit, more damage, big chopping weapons (more damage), weighted chopping weapons (even more damage), bashing weapons (basic damage), bashing weighted weapons (less damage, but bash through armor), and poky weapons that make small holes (less damage) but punch through armor.

 

This was done under 5th ed, so there may be some changes I'm not familiar with in 6th, but hopefully it might offer something. It looks like you have some similar ideas already.

[AmadanNaBriona]

Re: Presti's Weapon Rebuilds

 

This first section deals with the basic weight distribution / shape of the weapon. Balanced weapons are those that do not have a heavy weighted end (swords, small axes etc). Multiple / limited attacks does not relate to mechanics, but fighting style, light well balanced weapons like many swords allow quick attacks and feignts (multiple attacks) vs heavy weighted weapons that have to commit to an attack (limited attacks). This is not simply swords vs axes and maces, a small headed axe like a francisca could be balanced, multiple attacks, while a claymore would probably be balanced, limited and the classic fantasy double headed "battle axe" is unbalanced and limited.

Not bad, tho I'd personally disagree a wee bit about your specific Claymore example. Watching someone fighting with a greatsword in a halfsword grip is illuminating and scary.

[Toadmaster]

Re: Presti's Weapon Rebuilds

 

Don't take my lumping it as a "balanced, limited" as being clumsy, its simply you get a hunk of steel like that moving, you are kind of committed to the attack so its a bit easier for an opponent to guess where the attack is coming, and harder to adjust for that minor shift in direction needed to make contact compared to a lighter weapon.

 

Of course most of this is subjective and I'll admit to a certain amount of wanting to add some diversity to weapons and avoiding the perfect weapon syndrome (D&D longsword for example).

[Ninja-Bear]

Re: Presti's Weapon Rebuilds

 

Well' date=' I was actually thinking of making Concealment penalties a [i']Side Effect[/i] of the weapon's length (Reach). Reach is cheap, and the side effect way too minor to really be of consideration for the weapon's main attack. Besides, it seems fitting and just. There may be a few short weapons that are still difficult to conceal, but those can be dealt with on a case-by-case basis. Very small weapons like the stiletto you mentioned can have an in-built bonus instead of a penalty.

 

Oh, I agree about any polearm weapon, it would be hard to conceal. Curious though, how would you give an in-built bonus?

 

And two thoughts on heavier weapons. First, what about increased end? That might prevent everyone from buying that large sword because after a few phases, unless your trained for it, you'll be too tired to lift that big hunk of metal. And second, if your concerned about big weapons doing alot of damage, what about giving them the red. pen. lim.? That I believe would give power gamers a second thought. Then for a warrior trick, the pc could buy off the limitation, and call it trained.

[prestidigitator]

Re: Presti's Weapon Rebuilds

 

An in-built bonus is a lot easier than an in-built penalty, actually. The bonus is simply a limited Skill Level. I've often done penalties as a sort of "negative Skill Level" worth a rebate to the Real Cost equal to the points needed to offset the penalty, but I'm on the fence about doing that for this project as it is not a very commonly used approach.

[prestidigitator]

Re: Presti's Weapon Rebuilds

 

Sheilds

Shields are often more versatile than we give them credit for. Not only are they extremely useful for defense, but you can bash with the edge, backhand with the face, and use the whole thing as a striking surface when performing a Move Through. I will build shields as a Multipower with three to four slots (or possibly make use of Lockout instead). I'd rather do this than put a bunch of awkward Limitations on general CSLs. The slots/options will be:

1. A DCV bonus (+N DCV).
   
2. 2-point OCV levels with Block (+N OCV) plus 2 OPSLs vs. weapon length with Block.
   
3. Hand-to-Hand Attack (Nd6 HA).
   
4. (Shield Spike) Hand Killing Attack (0.5d6 HKA).

[Susano]

Re: Presti's Weapon Rebuilds

 

Having used a shield, I can say that the base DCV bonus should be more than 1-3. A person who knows how to use a shield properly can make himself unhittable to most standard strikes. This also means that I feel one needs WF shield in order to get the benefits of a shield's DCV.

 

Actively blocking can increase your DCV, but from the way I was taught, you're better off with a passive block (but that's a matter of style), so your levels with Block could/should cost END.

 

I can say that from using a heater, hitting people with the edge isn't all that hard, but getting enough force to do damage might be. Backhands to the face are not a good idea (you'd leave yourself wide open.) Certain shields, such as a tower shield, can't use these maneuvers.

 

Shield spikes only show up (AFAIK) on later period bucklers. Viking style center-grip rounds and Italian bucklers would work with this. A knightly "heater" would not.

 

As a final note -- shields fall apart under repeated blows.

[Ninja-Bear]

Re: Presti's Weapon Rebuilds

 

Susano- for shields breaking apart, doesn't that depend on the specific design? Wooden shields would certainly break after awile, but what about metal shields? Also for a higher DCV, what about giving the basic shield say +x DCV, and give it an additional +y DCV only with Shield WF? If fact, I been meaning to suggest this +x abilities only with proper WF for awhile.

[Susano]

Re: Presti's Weapon Rebuilds

 

Susano- for shields breaking apart' date=' doesn't that depend on the specific design? Wooden shields would certainly break after awile, but what about metal shields? Also for a higher DCV, what about giving the basic shield say +x DCV, and give it an additional +y DCV only with Shield WF? If fact, I been meaning to suggest this +x abilities only with proper WF for awhile.[/quote']

 

Sure, a metal shield will be far more sturdy than a wooden one, and a properly made tower shield (like the Romans used) will last longer than a smaller heater of Viking round. As for giving a base DCV with more due to a WF... I know if you have no idea what you're doing with a shield, it really won't protect you, since any swordsman of skill would be able to hit around it. However, certain shields (like said Roman tower) will defend you fairly well because there's only way to "wear" them. SP for ease of use... yeah, go with +x DCV for the base value, and add +y with the right WF.

[IndianaJoe3]

Re: Presti's Weapon Rebuilds

 

Sure' date=' a metal shield will be far more sturdy than a wooden one, and a properly made tower shield (like the Romans used) will last longer than a smaller heater of Viking round. As for giving a base DCV with more due to a WF... I know if you have no idea what you're doing with a shield, it really won't protect you, since any swordsman of skill would be able to hit around it. However, certain shields (like said Roman tower) will defend you fairly well because there's only way to "wear" them. SP for ease of use... yeah, go with +x DCV for the base value, and add +y with the right WF.[/quote']

 

The standard build could be the, "unskilled" version, and the WF version is +3 DCV to cancel out the non-proficiency penalty. Of course, this will make shields a very good buy - probably too good.

[Susano]

Re: Presti's Weapon Rebuilds

 

The standard build could be the' date=' "unskilled" version, and the WF version is +3 DCV to cancel out the non-proficiency penalty. Of course, this will make shields a [b']very[/b] good buy - probably too good.

 

Shields were used for a thousand years or more, in various styles. One reason the Greeks wrecked such damage on the Persians at Thermopylae was due to their shields. However, making one takes some skill, as well as knowledge how to use it right, and it can get heavy after extended use, so a shield could have LTE issues, or simply cost END every Phase.

[IndianaJoe3]

Re: Presti's Weapon Rebuilds

 

Shields were used for a thousand years or more' date=' in various styles. One reason the Greeks wrecked such damage on the Persians at Thermopylae was due to their shields. However, making one takes some skill, as well as knowledge how to use it right, and it can get heavy after extended use, so a shield could have LTE issues, or simply cost END every Phase.[/quote']

 

I'd be inclined to make a, "Shield Master" Talent - +3 DCV, OIF (shield), Costs END every Phase. 15 Active Points, 7 Real.

[prestidigitator]

Re: Presti's Weapon Rebuilds

 

First, even a +1 DCV is pretty significant in Hero, and the +3 DCV of a large shield is a whole standard deviation on the 3d6 probability distribution. I think that is significant enough for proficient shield use, myself. Second, as IndianaJoe suggests, I'd rather have the character buy the ability if their skill is great enough that they can really gain great benefit from the shield (personally I just do it as 3-point CSLs with shield, and have actually built several characters that way already). Third, I'd rather just build shields assuming their wielders are fully proficient, then let the GM decide whether a WF is needed and what the penalty for not having it is.

[Susano]

Re: Presti's Weapon Rebuilds

 

Something I forgot... proficiency in shield use isn't something that exists in a vacuum. If you're trained to fight with weapon and shield, then you learn it all at the same time (since shield is a function of stance, foot placement, movement, and so on.) Unlike GURPS, which asks you to buy short, broad, and bastard sword as separate skills, Hero lumps them all under "Blades." Thus, WF: Shield might be assumed to part of any WF: Blades/Common Melee Weapons training.

 

Then again, just because you can use a sword don't mean you know what to do with a shield if you pick on up.

[Fireg0lem]

Re: Presti's Weapon Rebuilds

 

Might I suggest building the defensive value of shields like this:

 

+x DCV

+x Resistant Protection, Only Against Attacks That Hit Locations (blah) By One Or Zero (-2)

 

The +DCV reflects that some attacks will glance off the shield by hitting it at an angle, but some attacks will be "direct hits" on the shield and damage it/possibly you. This is nice if you want blocking a giant's club or something to still hurt, but not be useless. It also allows shields to break over time as they take "direct hits."

 

Also, this makes weapons like Axes/Hammers/etc that get bonus damage against objects more useful - they'll break through a shield more quickly than other weapons.

[Susano]

Re: Presti's Weapon Rebuilds

 

Might I suggest building the defensive value of shields like this:

 

+x DCV

+x Resistant Protection, Only Against Attacks That Hit Locations (blah) By One Or Zero (-2)

 

The +DCV reflects that some attacks will glance off the shield by hitting it at an angle, but some attacks will be "direct hits" on the shield and damage it/possibly you. This is nice if you want blocking a giant's club or something to still hurt, but not be useless. It also allows shields to break over time as they take "direct hits."

 

Also, this makes weapons like Axes/Hammers/etc that get bonus damage against objects more useful - they'll break through a shield more quickly than other weapons.

 

Or an enchanted weapon that can punch through the shield with ease. The Resistant Protection can be derived from the DEF and BODY rules for objects.

[prestidigitator]

Re: Presti's Weapon Rebuilds

 

Limited PD/ED is a neat idea. Maybe an option for that that depends on the material the shield is made of.

[NuSoardGraphite]

Re: Presti's Weapon Rebuilds

 

I do think shields should require a WF, though that should only be a 1pt WF. Unskilled use of a shield would remove the passive bonus and possibly provide a penalty to actively blocking with the shield. However I think DCV bonuses above that given by a large shield (+3) are indicative of practiced skill with shields and to me, that screams Combat Skill Levels (3pt Shield levels, can add to passive DCV or to OCV when blocking). I would also allow 3pt skill levels that apply to Sword and Shield combo, thus the skill levels could augment the OCV of the sword attacks as well. (or any combination of one-handed melee weapon + shield)

As far as End use with a shield is concerned, since they have STR minimums, the Endurance cost would be based on the STR min and cost the required Endurance each phase the character is using the shield to get the passive DCV bonus and would apply every time the character used the shield to block an attack (if the character blocks multiple attacks in a single phase, the End is subtracted for each and every block attempt). If the shield is simply slung on the characters back to be carried, it doesn't cost End since the character isn't "wielding" it, but it would still add to the characters Encumbrance total.

 

Here's a question I've been pondering lately; Should characters carrying a shield and using the doge maneuver get the DCV bonuse for both? Are they mutually exclusive or should they stack. Imagine using a Large Shield (+3 DCV) with a couple of skill levels (+2 DCV) and couple that with a Martial Dodge (+5 DCV). Such a character would be essentially untouchable.

 

Another question would be how many attacks can the passive DCV apply against in a single phase? Is it reasonable for the character to get his/her shield bonus against each and every attacker that comes at her from the front arc? Obviously attacks from the rear or unperceived attacks do not get the bonus for the shield. Than again, does a character with Defense Maneuver II or better get to apply their shield bonus against attackers from the rear as well?

[Susano]

Re: Presti's Weapon Rebuilds

 

I do think shields should require a WF, though that should only be a 1pt WF. Unskilled use of a shield would remove the passive bonus and possibly provide a penalty to actively blocking with the shield. However I think DCV bonuses above that given by a large shield (+3) are indicative of practiced skill with shields and to me, that screams Combat Skill Levels (3pt Shield levels, can add to passive DCV or to OCV when blocking). I would also allow 3pt skill levels that apply to Sword and Shield combo, thus the skill levels could augment the OCV of the sword attacks as well. (or any combination of one-handed melee weapon + shield)

As far as End use with a shield is concerned, since they have STR minimums, the Endurance cost would be based on the STR min and cost the required Endurance each phase the character is using the shield to get the passive DCV bonus and would apply every time the character used the shield to block an attack (if the character blocks multiple attacks in a single phase, the End is subtracted for each and every block attempt). If the shield is simply slung on the characters back to be carried, it doesn't cost End since the character isn't "wielding" it, but it would still add to the characters Encumbrance total.

 

END use for shields depends on the type of shield. Center-grip rounds and bucklers require active use, properly slung, a heater just sits there, and body movement and stance does most of the blocking. Towers were often rested on the ground. For the sake of playability, I'd require END use with active blocking only.