Presti's Weapon Rebuilds

[prestidigitator]

I am starting a project whereby I will rebuild some of the weapons on the standard weapon chart; mostly the hand-to-hand and fantasy variety. I'm going to post the work here, first to get general feedback on the approach, second to get specific ideas and feedback on the particulars, and third to share what I have so anyone else can use it if they want. Often I'd do this kind of thing off in my own corner with the intention of EVENTUALLY sharing it here or somewhere; I'd rather post a work-in-progress this time so I can both get feedback and share without feeling like I have to get to some big milestone first.

 

There are a couple reasons I am doing this. First (and least), I think some of the Strength Minimums are silly. Do you really need a 17 Strength (lift 260 kg or 570 lbs) to effectively wield a great sword? I don't mean do maximum damage, I mean wield it without taking penalties. What about a 13 Strength (lift 150 kg or 330 lbs) to effectively use a bastard sword two-handed? I think part of the reason for the Strength Minimums as they stand in the book might be to offer a variety, but hopefully the rest of the details I'll be adding will do that without requiring gargantuan muscle men to wield them.

 

More importantly, I'd like to provide some more differentiation between the weapons and major types of weapons. Why the heck would I choose for my character to wield a sword when a spear with a comparable Strength Minimum does more damage, offers more reach, and can be thrown (not to mention being likely cheaper and easier to obtain in most settings)? For coolness factor alone? Why not let the system shine and design weapons to work in ways that actually made them more effective in reality? Examples:

 

• Some weapons can be used in multiple ways (e.g. stabbing vs. slashing, or a blunt side and a spiked side), with possibly different benefits for each.
  
• Some weapons were used specifically for their ability to pierce, rip apart, or negate the value of armor. This can go beyond simple Armor Piercing on weapons that are obviously big and pointy. For example, maces might be built with Penetrating because they are made to cause major crunching and bruising even through rigid armor that a sword would have a rough time slashing or piercing through.
  
• Some weapons offer some additional benefit in specific contexts, such as when receiving a charge (e.g. spears and polearms) or wrapping around a shield or weapon, making blocking more difficult (e.g. a flail).
  

 

So I'd like to start with some guidelines for various major categories of weapon (e.g. slashing, piercing, bludgeoning to use an old and familiar example) and weapon component (blade, haft, spike, etc.), and then eventually get down to the nitty-gritty of building specific weapons and variants.

 

Feel free to chime in with ideas, critiques, and your own versions at any point, but don't feel offended if I personally keep going in my own direction; it doesn't even necessarily mean I disagree with you or won't eventually revise my ideas to incorporate feedback. This is as much a simple sharing of ideas, notes, and works-in-progress as anything.

 

P.S.: Oh, and here's one thing this project is NOT going to do. While I'm not interested in being so detailed and picky as to, "build everything you could do with a spoon," I'm not going to worry much about the final point-cost of a weapon. If it takes a Mulitpower or compound power that results in large Active Points or a high Real Cost, I don't really care. If that's a big concern for your use of these weapons in a Superheroic or multi-genre campaign or a game with equipment pools that depend on this sort of thing, the end result might not be the best thing for you. So consider yourself forewarned.

[JohnTaber]

Re: Presti's Weapon Rebuilds

 

I think this is a good idea. I actually took the weapon list from FH 2e instead of the one from 6e because I think it is better balanced between Str Min, OCV, and damage. I'm less into what a weapon ACTUALLY does but more into balance. In 6e there is no reason to use a broad sword when a hand axe is better.

[Susano]

Re: Presti's Weapon Rebuilds

 

Take a look here: http://surbrook.devermore.net/herosource/fantasy_hero/europeweapons.html

[prestidigitator]

Re: Presti's Weapon Rebuilds

 

Take a look here: http://surbrook.devermore.net/herosource/fantasy_hero/europeweapons.html

Very nice Michael! That's a good amount of detail, and I might borrow some of the concepts if I may. I really like the idea of crossbows being difficult to reload if you don't have a WF. In fact, I might go for something like this: crossbows do not need a WF for the attack roll at all; anyone can fire them. Instead, they have a Required Roll (Dex or Str depending on whether a tool is used, with penalties from Active Points) to reload them unless you have the WF. The effect will be that people without the WF could be sitting there for quite some time trying to reload, especially in difficult circumstances (e.g. in the freezing rain with numb fingers...).

[Susano]

Re: Presti's Weapon Rebuilds

 

Very nice Michael! That's a good amount of detail' date=' and I might borrow some of the concepts if I may. I really like the idea of crossbows being difficult to reload if you don't have a WF. In fact, I might go for something like this: crossbows do not need a WF for the attack roll at all; anyone can fire them. Instead, they have a Required Roll (Dex or Str depending on whether a tool is used, with penalties from Active Points) to reload them unless you have the WF. The effect will be that people without the WF could be sitting there for quite some time trying to reload, especially in difficult circumstances (e.g. in the freezing rain with numb fingers...).[/quote']

 

Thanks. If you go up one level, you'll find I have similar essays dealing with armor and Asian arms and armor.

[Susano]

Re: Presti's Weapon Rebuilds

 

Very nice Michael! That's a good amount of detail' date=' and I might borrow some of the concepts if I may. I really like the idea of crossbows being difficult to reload if you don't have a WF. In fact, I might go for something like this: crossbows do not need a WF for the attack roll at all; anyone can fire them. Instead, they have a Required Roll (Dex or Str depending on whether a tool is used, with penalties from Active Points) to reload them unless you have the WF. The effect will be that people without the WF could be sitting there for quite some time trying to reload, especially in difficult circumstances (e.g. in the freezing rain with numb fingers...).[/quote']

 

It's pure STR. Trust me on this -- I used to fire a crossbow in the SCA. And yes, you do need a WF (it takes some getting used to how to hold/fire) but as I can attest, it only took me 5-15 minutes to get used to firing the crossbow (and I was able to hit the target almost every time.)

[prestidigitator]

Re: Presti's Weapon Rebuilds

 

...yes' date=' you do need a WF (it takes some getting used to how to hold/fire) but as I can attest, it only took me 5-15 minutes to get used to firing the crossbow (and I was able to hit the target almost every time.)[/quote']

To me taking a few minutes to be able to fire accurately indicates it doesn't need enough training to require a WF. At the most you might get a small penalty the first few times you fire. Crossbows WERE used in part because of the little amount of training required to fire them effectively, and I think this would be a good way to model that in the game system. Of course, a WF should still give you benefit, and faster/surer reloading seems to serve a good opportunity for that.

[prestidigitator]

Re: Presti's Weapon Rebuilds

 

Spikes

 

Picks, morning stars, the reverse end of some axes and hammers, etc. have spikes that can be driven with great force at the end of a swing. These can not only be used to pierce armor, but also may rip bits of armor off or to pieces on recovery from the swing. Therefore, I am going to build these components with:

 

HKA; Armor Piercing (+1/4); ...

Drain: 2d6 Resistant Protection; Delayed Return Rate: 5/day (+9/4); Requires a Strength Roll (-1/2); ...

 

(The idea of the day return rate is that presumably the target could've repaired or replaced bits of his armor by then, so it won't matter if the drained points fade by then anyway. It may be that in practice the GM decides that as part of a Real Armor Limitation or something the Drain won't fade at all without skill use. Part of the Real Weapon Limitation most actual weapons will be built with should include that the Drain will only work against real physical armor where there's something to rip off or apart, and won't work against certain magical protections or natural defenses.)

[Susano]

Re: Presti's Weapon Rebuilds

 

Quick comment -- that should be HKA and Armor Piercing is only +1/4.

[prestidigitator]

Re: Presti's Weapon Rebuilds

 

Quick comment -- that should be HKA and Armor Piercing is only +1/4.

Ah. Yes. I'll fix, thanks.

[Mystic Pilgrim]

Re: Presti's Weapon Rebuilds

 

• Some weapons can be used in multiple ways (e.g. stabbing vs. slashing, or a blunt side and a spiked side), with possibly different benefits for each.
  
• Some weapons were used specifically for their ability to pierce, rip apart, or negate the value of armor. This can go beyond simple Armor Piercing on weapons that are obviously big and pointy. For example, maces might be built with Penetrating because they are made to cause major crunching and bruising even through rigid armor that a sword would have a rough time slashing or piercing through.
  
• Some weapons offer some additional benefit in specific contexts, such as when receiving a charge (e.g. spears and polearms) or wrapping around a shield or weapon, making blocking more difficult (e.g. a flail).
  

 

Would you hand this "multi-effect" as a "Multi-power"?

[prestidigitator]

Re: Presti's Weapon Rebuilds

 

Would you hand this "multi-effect" as a "Multi-power"?

Yes, in some cases as a Multipower, though in others a simple compound power might be more appropriate.

[Yansuf]

Re: Presti's Weapon Rebuilds

 

Real European chain weapons will not hit the user unless he is a fool.

The chain is kept shorter than the haft, so by holding the end of the haft pointed away from you the weapon cannot hit you.

Poorly researched replicas of such weapons usually have the chain far too long.

Not being familiar enough with Asian weapons, I will not comment on them.

[prestidigitator]

Re: Presti's Weapon Rebuilds

 

Speaking of which....

 

Chains

Chains (generally on flails) make it difficult to parry an attack or block them with a shield. They can also make it easier to rip a weapon out of someone's hands. I will build weapons with chains using:

 

CSLs: +2 OCV with (weapon); Only versus Blocks, to counter shield DCV bonuses, or with Disarm (-1/2); OAF (-1) [4 active; 2 real]

 

NOTE: The applicability to Disarm may not be appropriate for some weapons or models, but it is probably not enough to change the value of the Limitation so this can easily be left up to the particular case and the GM's judgement.

[Susano]

Re: Presti's Weapon Rebuilds

 

Speaking of which....

 

Chains

Chains (generally on flails) make it difficult to parry an attack or block them with a shield. They can also make it easier to rip a weapon out of someone's hands. I will build weapons with chains using:

 

CSLs: +2 OCV with (weapon); Only versus Blocks, to counter shield DCV bonuses, or with Disarm (-1/2); OAF (-1) [4 active; 2 real]

 

I disagree with fails getting the disarm bonus. They didn't have enough length to make it viable. I've also seen the flails made with a form of Indirect that allowed them to ignore shield bonuses, since the weapon's head was able to wrap around the blocking shield (or weapon.)

[prestidigitator]

Re: Presti's Weapon Rebuilds

 

I disagree with fails getting the disarm bonus. They didn't have enough length to make it viable. I've also seen the flails made with a form of Indirect that allowed them to ignore shield bonuses' date=' since the weapon's head was able to wrap around the blocking shield (or weapon.)[/quote']

Hmm. Well, you don't have to wrap completely around a weapon for a useful disarm, but I suppose the true benefit in a disarm might also depend on the particular model (flails were quite varied from time to time and place to place). I'll note that. [EDIT: Also nunchaku are quite effective for disarms, though my focus isn't so much on traditional martial arts weapons for this project.]

 

Indirect is another good option, but I like the simplicity of an OCV bonus and I think it makes it a lot less subjective to deal with in play. I also don't think it should make Blocks and large shields completely useless; just less effective. So I'm going to stick with the OCV bonus for now.

[Lucius]

Re: Presti's Weapon Rebuilds

 

A couple of ideas I thought of the last time we had a thread on this topic:

 

First, for every weapon on a weapons table, there should be some reason why someone would use it - even if the reason is that it's cheap or easy to make. I think you're already more or less explicitly embracing this idea anyway, but I think it bears repeating.

 

One way to differentiate among weapons is to allow only certain weapon types to be used with martial arts.

 

A reason I thought of that is that the sword, in particular, is a weapon form that has been used (in some variation or other) by every culture with the ability to make them, and has almost always been the weapon of choice for the professional warrior. If there are martial arts in the campaign that can be used only with swords, that will make them devestating in the hands of those who specialize in them, even if the weapon stats themselves don't look so impressive.

 

I've also considered the possibility of giving swords an inherent Combat Skill Level that is Conditonal or Linked so as to only apply if the user has a couple of Skill Levels already.

 

An idea I think was mine, but someone else may have said it and I just liked it a lot:

 

Some weapons have obvious secondary uses. To break down a door or open a locked chest, an axe or hammer is going to be more useful than a sword. Such "tool-weapons" have a benefit apart from their combat stats.

 

Lucius Alexander

 

Weapon Familiarity: Palindromedary Mounted Weapons

[Susano]

Re: Presti's Weapon Rebuilds

 

A well-balanced sword should be +1 OCV in my opinion.

[prestidigitator]

Re: Presti's Weapon Rebuilds

 

A couple of ideas I thought of the last time we had a thread on this topic:

 

First, for every weapon on a weapons table, there should be some reason why someone would use it - even if the reason is that it's cheap or easy to make. I think you're already more or less explicitly embracing this idea anyway, but I think it bears repeating.

 

Yes! Exactly.

 

One way to differentiate among weapons is to allow only certain weapon types to be used with martial arts.

 

A reason I thought of that is that the sword, in particular, is a weapon form that has been used (in some variation or other) by every culture with the ability to make them, and has almost always been the weapon of choice for the professional warrior. If there are martial arts in the campaign that can be used only with swords, that will make them devestating in the hands of those who specialize in them, even if the weapon stats themselves don't look so impressive.

 

I've also considered the possibility of giving swords an inherent Combat Skill Level that is Conditonal or Linked so as to only apply if the user has a couple of Skill Levels already.

I'm thinking of giving all swords (not daggers and knives; being able to throw and conceal them is bonus enough I think) at least +1 OCV, and possibly a small extra OCV bonus for larger ones that only offsets Dodge DCV bonuses (like chains offset Block and shield bonuses). Having a long blade that slashes through a very wide area of space means you have to work like crazy to get out of the way. It's a lot harder to get out of the way of a swinging sword than it is to step aside from a spear jab, for example. Even if the sword attack is a jab, you wouldn't want to JUST get out of the way and have the sharp edge slice along your side (though truthfully that's a very tiny consideration I'm using--along with the versatility of being able to either swing or stab with most swords--to avoid some kind of conditional clause that the bonus is only for slashes ).

 

The Martial Arts thing is a good idea too, but I'm trying to stick mostly with mechanics for this project rather than environment/setting/story justification. Those without a doubt have their place, of course, but such things will--well, should be allowed to--vary greatly from game to game.

 

An idea I think was mine, but someone else may have said it and I just liked it a lot:

 

Some weapons have obvious secondary uses. To break down a door or open a locked chest, an axe or hammer is going to be more useful than a sword. Such "tool-weapons" have a benefit apart from their combat stats.

Yeah. If I model that with Powers, I may actually link in a second HKA that is Only vs. Objects. Those weapons are still real weapons, but Real Weapon usually--in part--models the fact that you can't easily destroy big real-world objects with them. I'm undecided for the moment. Maybe it's not worth modeling. Maybe it's worth reducing Real Weapon to -0 instead of -1/4. Maybe it's worth a second Power to simulate increased and separate effectiveness. Hmm.

[Fireg0lem]

Re: Presti's Weapon Rebuilds

 

What about building it as something like +1d6 HKA (or +3d6 HA) with Only Versus Objects (-1.5)? This could very well be relevant, since it would be more useful for breaking Barriers or Entangles, destroying mcguffins, etc, and it is reasonably priced for what it does. You might also specify that some non-object targets might get extra damage too, like skeletons or golems.

 

I don't think modifying Real Weapon is the way to go, because it's more "can't destroy illogical stuff." You still couldn't destroy curtains with a hammer or whatever.

[Ninja-Bear]

Re: Presti's Weapon Rebuilds

 

One thing that has bothered me is that weapons with a bonus to disarm, or grabs is only a csl bonus. I think that if the weapon is designed to say, disarm such as a sai then it should be built with additional str for use with disarm, probaly no more than +5.

[prestidigitator]

Re: Presti's Weapon Rebuilds

 

What about building it as something like +1d6 HKA (or +3d6 HA) with Only Versus Objects (-1.5)? This could very well be relevant, since it would be more useful for breaking Barriers or Entangles, destroying mcguffins, etc, and it is reasonably priced for what it does. You might also specify that some non-object targets might get extra damage too, like skeletons or golems.

 

I don't think modifying Real Weapon is the way to go, because it's more "can't destroy illogical stuff." You still couldn't destroy curtains with a hammer or whatever.

Hmm. Yeah, perhaps. Maybe that small bonus, then it can be up to the GM whether JUST that bonus, or the bonus plus some small amount of the base attack, or the whole HKA damage, gets applied to objects. It's really OTHER weapons that should do LESS damage, but I hate to place an additional Limitation on every single one of them or something....

[prestidigitator]

Re: Presti's Weapon Rebuilds

 

One thing that has bothered me is that weapons with a bonus to disarm' date=' or grabs is only a csl bonus. I think that if the weapon is designed to say, disarm such as a sai then it should be built with additional str for use with disarm, probaly no more than +5.[/quote']

Good idea. I'd hesitate to apply it to whips and chains and such, but it will work well for weapons that you can use to apply leverage to disarm or immobilize another weapon. Might apply it both to Disarm and Grab Weapon.

[Ninja-Bear]

Re: Presti's Weapon Rebuilds

 

I have an idea. What about giving certain weapons additional skill bonuses? Example, the Saex was said to be a well-rounded knife that was a great tool also. So maybe it should get a +1 overall level with a limitation "only for blade skill rolls". By that, I mean if you use it for skinning a deer, you get a bonus to survival/tannery skill roll. For modern knives the "Rambo" could just be a +1 with Survival roll.

[AmadanNaBriona]

Re: Presti's Weapon Rebuilds

 

Rebuilding a post that got eaten by the interwebs last night...

 

I agree that swords should generally as a class get the best OCV bonuses. Swords climbed to the top of the weapons pile for a reason. I've read statements to the effect that swords are the only major weapon type that is solely purpose built to be a weapon of war (as opposed to hunting). Almost everything else started as weaponized tools.

 

Speaking of tool weapons, something I've been pondering would probably be a good fit here. The way heroic level armor is handled could be a lot more detailed. If we're willing to add some added work, we could build mundane armor with a variety of Defensive Powers. The big one that's been on my mind recently has been to use Damage Negation to represent "structural strength" as it were. So Steel Chain and Steel Plate of the same weight/thickness might well have the same DEF, but the plate would also have a few levels of pDN to represent the way that rigid armor can just shed some attacks that would be felt by someone wearing the same weight of flexible armor.

The structural model could/should also carry over into the environment, thus explaining removing any confusion over the Real Weapon questions. If a door has 4 DN then most swords aren't gonna do much against them, but an axe or a pick with... uh... Negation Reduction? That's not right. Blimey, I can't remember the name of the counter to DN. Anyway, THAT would give hafted weapons their place