Political/Religious Space Colonies?

[Xavier Onassiss]

Re: Political/Religious Space Colonies?

 

I think we've gotten pretty far afield of the original question.

 

The only point I was making was that, just as "it's easy to commit acts of genocide when you can say God told you to" (a quote from someone on a different discussion board entirely), it's also easy to commit acts of genocide when you think there's no God to answer to, that you (as a personal dictator, as "The State," or whatever) are the ultimate authority. A lot of you are making the point that being "good" doesn't require God; being evil doesn't certainly require God.

 

So a state based on atheism won't necessarily be free from corruption and cruelty just because its proponents say it is. "Logic" and "science" can say some pretty outrageous things -- it already has, in the past -- and these can lead to things that, by our standards, would be atrocious.

 

Whether there's a god they'll answer to or not is beside the point, IMHO. A government that has to answer to its people is far less likely to commit genocide, whether they're religious or not.

 

And religious or not, people who commit genocide don't answer to anybody.

[Alverant]

Re: Political/Religious Space Colonies?

 

The only point I was making was that' date=' just as "it's easy to commit acts of genocide when you can say God told you to" (a quote from someone on a different discussion board entirely), it's also easy to commit acts of genocide when you think there's no God to answer to, that you (as a personal dictator, as "The State," or whatever) are the ultimate authority. A lot of you are making the point that being "good" doesn't require God; being evil doesn't certainly require God.[/quote']

 

The nice thing about "personal dictators" or "The State" is that eventually they die. No matter how bad they are one day their reign will end. But it's harder to kill a god because god is an idea and perpetuated from generation to generation. That's why religious tyranny has lasted so much longer.

 

No one ever claimed Atheism was prefect or by following Atheist dogma (which there is none) will give you a perfect world. But having God makes it easier for, as you put it, "the closed-minded, the people whose thought processes have permeated our culture for centuries and held us back both socially and technologically" to gain power and justify their evil.

 

Stalin was brought up Catholic. Pol Pot started a cult based on him. They would have been bad people regardless of their religious beliefs. But would Pope Innocent III call for a crusade against heretics and Jews if he wasn't christian? Would the KKK have given us decades of terrorism if they weren't christian? The frequency of people doing evil in the name of religion far exceeds the same for Atheism.

[dmjalund]

Re: Political/Religious Space Colonies?

 

The Golden rule was built into the ten commandmants. Jesus went a step or two beyond that.

[Alverant]

Re: Political/Religious Space Colonies?

 

The Golden rule was built into the ten commandmants. Jesus went a step or two beyond that.

 

So you're saying the golden rule, something many other previous religions had, was copied into the 10 commandants along side of times when it's OK to break them? Like how it's OK to kill children if a king won't do something. As for going beyond that, I'm not seeing it. Jesus said you have to love him more than your own family. That doesn't sound very "golden rule"-ish to me.

[Tasha]

Re: Political/Religious Space Colonies?

 

Really' date=' then why was it a revoultionary thought two thousand years ago?[/quote']

 

In what historical record does it say that it wasn't? I'll bet if you did some research that you would find that other civilizations have said similar things.

 

Most of the laws that civilization uses tend to boil down to that. We couch it in specifics because jerks tend to "not understand" something unless it's written down in excruciating exact language. Unfortunatly there is a part of humanity as a whole who are greedy, selfish, jerks who will do nasty things to others unless the rest of society make rules both saying that you can't do that, but also giving the penalty for those go and do it anyways.

[dmjalund]

Re: Political/Religious Space Colonies?

 

So you're saying the golden rule' date=' something many other previous religions had, was copied into the 10 commandants along side of times when it's OK to break them? Like how it's OK to kill children if a king won't do something. As for going beyond that, I'm not seeing it. Jesus said you have to love him more than your own family. That doesn't sound very "golden rule"-ish to me.[/quote']IIRC, none of the exceptions were in the 10, they were written in other books

 

As for loving him more, it was merely a yardstick - as he says love one another as I have loved you. (which would only be cynical if you believed he expects you to love him more than he loves you)

[Markdoc]

Re: Political/Religious Space Colonies?

 

At the risk of violating the call to return to the original topic: Could you please cite this law specifically' date=' please?[/quote']

 

Beaten to the punch - but yeah, what they said. As demonstrated, it's well known by any student of early US law, as being the most explicit of the many attempts by the founders to divorce the government from any sort of religious bias. What I didn't note is that in addition to having received the endorsement of many of the founding fathers, the text was also circulated publicly before it was signed into law, and didn't raise any apparent opposition.

 

People back then were smart enough to distinguish between personal faith - Washington, for example seems to have been conventionally religious - and the corrupting effect of religion on governance. Even the personally religious founding fathers appeared happy to separate church and state completely.

 

cheers, Mark

[BobGreenwade]

Re: Political/Religious Space Colonies?

 

Would the KKK have given us decades of terrorism if they weren't christian?

They're not, and never have been. Their motivations are quite secular.

[Markdoc]

Re: Political/Religious Space Colonies?

 

They're not' date=' and never have been. Their motivations are quite secular.[/quote']

 

I'd agree. They cloak themselves in christian and patriotic rhetoric, but they are neither christian nor patriotic in their actions: their motivations are secular and often economic. The same is true of neo-nazi groups and plenty of others.

 

Though I wouldn't want to make a direct comparison with the despicable behaviour of the KKK, the same could otherwise also be said of the majority of the so-called "christian" political action groups in the US: they are purely political groups with secular goals, dressing up their goals in religious language and debasing both in the process.

 

cheers, Mark

[Ian Mackinder]

Re: Political/Religious Space Colonies?

 

'The Religious Reich', as the latter are called in SJG's 'Illuminati' cardgame

[Alverant]

Re: Political/Religious Space Colonies?

 

They're not' date=' and never have been.[/quote']

Then why do you have to be a christian to join? Why do they frequently quote the bible to justify what they do? Why are most of their leaders baptist? Go ahead, ask them what religion they are. I'll bet many of them will claim to be baptist or protestant. Why in Columbus were they granted the status of a religious organization?

 

Go to their website, they claim to be christian friendly. They claim to love America for its christian foundation. They have a second website for the Traditional Christian KKK. Their actions may not be what you think "real" christians should act but that doesn't mean they don't think they are christians and shouldn't be considered christian.

[Markdoc]

Re: Political/Religious Space Colonies?

 

Then why do you have to be a christian to join? Why do they frequently quote the bible to justify what they do? Why are most of their leaders baptist? Go ahead, ask them what religion they are. I'll bet many of them will claim to be baptist or protestant. Why in Columbus were they granted the status of a religious organization?

 

Go to their website, they claim to be christian friendly. They claim to love America for its christian foundation. They have a second website for the Traditional Christian KKK. Their actions may not be what you think "real" christians should act but that doesn't mean they don't think they are christians and shouldn't be considered christian.

 

 

I think it's fair to say that they consider themselves to be christian - but that doesn't mean we have to. They also consider themselves part of the "master race" and I guarantee, take the hoods off and you'll be surprised at the number of drooling chinless wonders with no foreheads, that you'll see. Under Hitler, the nazis set up their own christian organizations - but I think we can agree they didn't represent mainstream Christianity anymore than al-Qaeda represents mainstream islam.

 

Looked at in that light, the KKK are no more christian than (say) Glenn Beck. In both cases, they self-identify, but use their purported religion as a tool to sow hatred and for self-aggrandizement.

 

The smart thing to do in all of these cases is for their erstwhile coreligionists to say "Buddy, you got no business defaming my religion like that".

 

cheers, Mark

[Tasha]

Re: Political/Religious Space Colonies?

 

A good and true quote. If you think about it' date=' the christian god is pretty communistic. Both don't tolerate anyone worshiping anyone but them. Both claim absolute power and ownership over everything, including your life. Both have a secret police spying on their citizens. Both claim to do horrendous acts "for your own good". Both send anyone who disagrees with official dogma off to a horrible place never to be seen again. Both claim to treat all their people equality when both have shown favoritism to those loyal. And so on and on[/quote']

 

I think that would be Totalitarian, not Communist. Communism is when the people own the means of production. It was meant as a way for people to throw off the chains of the feudal system. Which was the way that many countries were still being governed. Also in many "free" nations, the corporations were treating their workers like it was a new feudalism. Which is how things are starting to look again in the US with wages so low and much of the real jobs being shipped off to where people will work for slave wages.

[Markdoc]

Re: Political/Religious Space Colonies?

 

I think that would be Totalitarian' date=' not Communist. Communism is when the people own the means of production. It was meant as a way for people to throw off the chains of the feudal system. Which was the way that many countries were still being governed. Also in many "free" nations, the corporations were treating their workers like it was a new feudalism. Which is how things are starting to look again in the US with wages so low and much of the real jobs being shipped off to where people will work for slave wages.[/quote']

 

Now don't you go getting uppity ... "Officer - that woman is threatening my profits!"

 

cheers, Mark

[dmjalund]

Re: Political/Religious Space Colonies?

 

but Jesus was not interested in political power. That was left to lesser men.

[Tasha]

Re: Political/Religious Space Colonies?

 

Now don't you go getting uppity ... "Officer - that woman is threatening my profits!"

 

cheers, Mark

 

Funny thing is that IMHO if you can get the majority of the population working with wages that are in excess of that needed for survival, that it will increase profits in the long run. Also those profits will be sustainable for the long term and not be so bound to credit bubbles and such.

[Alverant]

Re: Political/Religious Space Colonies?

 

but Jesus was not interested in political power. That was left to lesser men.

 

Jesus called himself the "King of Kings" and as Monty Python pointed out, you don't vote for kings. Sounds pretty political to me.

[Alverant]

Re: Political/Religious Space Colonies?

 

I think it's fair to say that they consider themselves to be christian - but that doesn't mean we have to. They also consider themselves part of the "master race" and I guarantee' date=' take the hoods off and you'll be surprised at the number of drooling chinless wonders with no foreheads, that you'll see. Under Hitler, the nazis set up their own christian organizations - but I think we can agree they didn't represent mainstream Christianity anymore than al-Qaeda represents mainstream islam.[/quote']

 

I never said they represented mainstream christianity. I just said they were christian groups. I do agree that al-Qaeda doesn't represent mainstream; however many people do. It's a twisted double standard. Extremist christians aren't "real" christians, but extremist muslims, Atheist, wiccans, etc are still considered "real" muslims, Atheists, wiccans, etc and somehow all the members of those groups are responsible for what the extremists have done. Worse especially "distasteful" christians are labeled as Atheists (like how BobGreenwade claims the Nazis were Atheists even after being shown that they were christian) to protect the reputation of their religion.

 

Ironically if you look at christian history, the extremists of today were a lot closer to the mainstream of yesteryear. For example Rev Phelps claims dead US soldiers are God's punishment for our acceptance of homosexuals. Compare that to the claims that the 9/11/01 terror attacks were because God was angry at liberals, witches, homosexuals, etc. There's not much difference between them.

 

Morals change. Society changes. The fringe and mainstream switch places and everyone is convinced THEY are the part of the real version of their religion and everyone else is a counterfeit. Martin Luther's ideas were considered revolutionary in their time. Hitler uses those rules and it was considered backwards. Yet the word of Jesus is centuries older and is still considered relevant? How does that work?

 

Looked at in that light' date=' the KKK are no more christian than (say) Glenn Beck. In both cases, they self-identify, but use their purported religion as a tool to sow hatred and for self-aggrandizement.[/quote']

 

Who is anyone else to say they are using their religion for self-aggrandizement or if they are doing what they think is the will of their god? You don't have Telepathy 8d6 or Detect Aura and neither do I. I take people at their word and if they seriously say they are christian, I believe them.

 

The smart thing to do in all of these cases is for their erstwhile coreligionists to say "Buddy' date=' you got no business defaming my religion like that[/i']".

 

Who's doing the defaming? The people like Glenn Beck or the people like Martin Luther King Jr? To defame something you first have to define what it is so you can make comparisons and qualifications. In religion, it comes down to how you interpret holy books and interpretation is a very individual thing. Add contradictions, passages added/removed for reasons only the writer knows, multiple translations, and language problems and the problem only gets worse. As Shakespeare said, "Even the Devil can use the Bible to justify his actions."

[Alverant]

Re: Political/Religious Space Colonies?

 

Funny thing is that IMHO if you can get the majority of the population working with wages that are in excess of that needed for survival' date=' that it will increase profits in the long run. Also those profits will be sustainable for the long term and not be so bound to credit bubbles and such.[/quote']

 

Key word "long run" in the short run they cause lesser profits. The people in charge of businesses would rather have $10 now instead of $5 every week for the next three weeks. It's instant gratification they want provided someone else has to pay for the consequences.

[dmjalund]

Re: Political/Religious Space Colonies?

 

Jesus called himself the "King of Kings" and as Monty Python pointed out' date=' you don't vote for kings. Sounds pretty political to me.[/quote']"My Kingdom is not of this world" maybe he is a political animal in heaven, but on this earth - not so much

[Alverant]

Re: Political/Religious Space Colonies?

 

I think that would be Totalitarian' date=' not Communist. Communism is when the people own the means of production. It was meant as a way for people to throw off the chains of the feudal system. Which was the way that many countries were still being governed. Also in many "free" nations, the corporations were treating their workers like it was a new feudalism. Which is how things are starting to look again in the US with wages so low and much of the real jobs being shipped off to where people will work for slave wages.[/quote']

 

I stand corrected. But wouldn't that make god and his churches totalitarian dictators? And as such don't we as free willed individuals have an obligation to fight against such a dictatorship? We've invaded countries for less.

[Markdoc]

Re: Political/Religious Space Colonies?

 

Who is anyone else to say they are using their religion for self-aggrandizement or if they are doing what they think is the will of their god? You don't have Telepathy 8d6 or Detect Aura and neither do I. I take people at their word and if they seriously say they are christian' date=' I believe them.[/quote']

 

By their acts, so shall ye know them Anyone who preaches hatred of others, and piles up stacks of cash, big houses ad cars, etc while others go without is, by definition, not a christian, whatever they call themselves.

 

I judge people by their actions. And yeah, I know "Judge not, lest ye be judged" - but hey, I go ahead and judge anyway.

 

cheers, Mark

[Markdoc]

Re: Political/Religious Space Colonies?

 

Funny thing is that IMHO if you can get the majority of the population working with wages that are in excess of that needed for survival' date=' that it will increase profits in the long run. Also those profits will be sustainable for the long term and not be so bound to credit bubbles and such.[/quote']

 

Well, yeah, but the people who did most to create the credit bubble made out like bandits, even including the crash years.

 

If a senior executive takes a decision that hurts his firm in 10 years, but reaps a major personal profit in the first 3 years, well, in 10 years he'll be gone, but he'll still have the money. US society - and to some degree, all of western society - has become fixated on short term personal profit vs long term, shared gain. We've lost the will to stigmatise people who behave like that, so of course they do it because, really, what's to lose?

 

cheers, Mark

[Tasha]

Re: Political/Religious Space Colonies?

 

I stand corrected. But wouldn't that make god and his churches totalitarian dictators? And as such don't we as free willed individuals have an obligation to fight against such a dictatorship? We've invaded countries for less.

 

The problems is that people who have been indoctrinated with religion tend to defend those beliefs even beyond rationality. Also, most Christians are pretty nice people and don't push their beliefs on others. So, I have a live and let live policy when it comes to religion. I myself, I dislike organized religion. I don't have issues with decentralized religions as long as they don't want to push their beliefs on me.

 

BTW for all concerned and who care. I am not an Atheist and am not Christian either. I hold my own beliefs and they are a mashup of a bunch of things, and at the same time I find my faith to be irrational.

 

Tasha

[Tornado]

Re: Political/Religious Space Colonies?

 

Which sounds really really nice in theory' date=' and might work OK for a small well-established group comprised entirely of volunteers. Not, I personally believe, for anything larger or more complex. [/quote']I can't really agree. Planned economies are perfectly functional, and have certain advantages over market economies (most importantly, they can adjust prices arbitrarily, making social ills more expensive and social goods cheaper). For example, Russia's economy pre-1928 most closely resembled Latin America (less the southern cone), but by 1970 had an economy half again as large in terms of GDP per capita.