A level of confusion

[Sean Waters]

I'm not quite grokking this and you may be able to help.

 

I'm looking at the 6e rules for CSLs.

 

If I have a 5 point skill level with (say) Sword, Dagger and Musket (Un musketeer, oui?), can I use that skill level to increase my DCV against both HtH and ranged attacks, and do I have to be doing anything in particular to do so?

 

I ask because the 'Randall Irons' example 6.1.69 mentions that he has a 3 point level with knives, a 3 point level with pistols and an overall level. If he attacks with the pistol he can be +2 OCV (overall level + pistol level) but can not use the knife level becasue he is fighting with a pistol. It goes on to say, "however if someone attacked him with a knife he could use that CSL level to improve his DCV against the knife attack (assuming he is somehow using the knife)"

 

It is that last bit in italics that got me wondering.

 

Does that mean he has to be holding a knife to get a DCV bonus against knives? Surely someone who is familiar with how a knife fighter operates is better able to defend even if unarmed?

 

Does that mean that, to use a CSL that relates to a weapon for DCV you have to be holding the weapon, or does it mean something different?

 

Does that mean that if someone attacked him with a club, rather than a knife, he can't use the level for DCV even if he has a knife in hand? (I don't think so - the bottom of the page on 'Increase DCV' seems to clearly say you can use DCV against and HtH attack in that situation.

[AirborneRob]

Re: A level of confusion

 

When someone has a CSL with Knives, i look at that as saying this guy is killed at both wielding a knife in combat and knowing how to defend yourself in said fight. Although having a knife in hand while defending yourself is an obvious plus, it shouldn't be a requirement. Defending yourself from a knife attack is more about body positioning, anticipating the opponents moves and reacting accordingly which is where i think the intent of the CSL was going IMO. On the other hand, some GM's may require the character to have a knife in hand to receive the DCV bonus. In other words, said GM may say that since knife size can vary and balance of the weapon affords more control of use in combat, thats where the DCV bonus comes into play. In the end, i would say you only get the OCV bonus while weilding a knife but can get the DCV bonus without it to reflect my reasoning above.

[prestidigitator]

Re: A level of confusion

 

Technically you can only apply a CSL with a weapon on a Phase where you use that weapon, and if applied to DCV it applies to either HTH DCV (if it is a HTH weapon) or Ranged DCV (if it is a Ranged weapon). My own view on that is that you know how to use the weapon itself to defend. So with a knife you might be guarding and maybe even feinting with the knife to try to prevent a successful attack from landing. I can rationalize it less for a ranged weapon, which is why I guess there is the optional rule that says you cannot increase your Ranged DCV without Overall (Combat) Levels. When I don't use that optional rule (most of the time I don't), I just kinda skip over trying to rationalize why the weapon must be in your hand (!), though I do picture whether your defensive perception is focused on close attackers or incoming projectiles and such. So my own criterion for whether or not you can apply your weapon-based CSL to DCV is whether you have the weapon in your hand and can reasonably use it to defend yourself. It has little to do with what kind of weapon is in the opponent's hand except for the HTH/Ranged split.

 

An interesting corner case arises for HTH weapons that can be thrown. A knife is a good example of such a weapon, actually. Personally I allow levels that can apply to knives (specifically, not something like "blades", or "common melee weapons" if such a CSL were allowed) to apply to HTH DCV if you are holding the knife, or Ranged DCV (in games where it is permitted) in a Phase where you throw (have thrown) a knife. I do not allow the CSL to apply against HTH DCV in a Phase where you throw a knife (use it as a Ranged weapon).

 

I'll admit some of that is a little difficult to really justify in terms of common/dramatic sense. Sometimes strange situations just have to be judged on a situational basis, but most of the time I just close my eyes and pretend it's just the way things work because that's how the game was designed. It leaves a little bit of a scummy taste, but I can generally live with it.

[Manic Typist]

Re: A level of confusion

 

Well, if they character had +4 3 pt levels with swords.... would you allow them to have those levels blocking people with swords using their bare hands? Even if you impose a penalty for blocking an armed opponent while you are unarmed... I'm dubious.

 

I have a tendency to view fighting unarmed, even against a weapon you are very familiar with, as sufficient different enough so as to merit different CSLs.

[pinecone]

Re: A level of confusion

 

I'm not quite grokking this and you may be able to help.

 

I'm looking at the 6e rules for CSLs.

 

If I have a 5 point skill level with (say) Sword, Dagger and Musket (Un musketeer, oui?), can I use that skill level to increase my DCV against both HtH and ranged attacks, and do I have to be doing anything in particular to do so?

 

I ask because the 'Randall Irons' example 6.1.69 mentions that he has a 3 point level with knives, a 3 point level with pistols and an overall level. If he attacks with the pistol he can be +2 OCV (overall level + pistol level) but can not use the knife level becasue he is fighting with a pistol. It goes on to say, "however if someone attacked him with a knife he could use that CSL level to improve his DCV against the knife attack (assuming he is somehow using the knife)"

 

It is that last bit in italics that got me wondering.

 

Does that mean he has to be holding a knife to get a DCV bonus against knives? Surely someone who is familiar with how a knife fighter operates is better able to defend even if unarmed?

 

Does that mean that, to use a CSL that relates to a weapon for DCV you have to be holding the weapon, or does it mean something different?

 

Does that mean that if someone attacked him with a club, rather than a knife, he can't use the level for DCV even if he has a knife in hand? (I don't think so - the bottom of the page on 'Increase DCV' seems to clearly say you can use DCV against and HtH attack in that situation.

 

I took it to mean that he can only use the level with Knives if he has a knife in hand (say in his off hand...) I was assuming that little bit was because he has a 3 point level and they are "supposed" to be quite limited....

[AirborneRob]

Re: A level of confusion

 

Well, if they character had +4 3 pt levels with swords.... would you allow them to have those levels blocking people with swords using their bare hands? Even if you impose a penalty for blocking an armed opponent while you are unarmed... I'm dubious.

 

I have a tendency to view fighting unarmed, even against a weapon you are very familiar with, as sufficient different enough so as to merit different CSLs.

 

No i wouldn't, a sword has a significant reach where as a knife is very close and personal. You can grab the attackers hand or arm easier in a knife fight than a sword fight with just hands. Just my opinion, we had hand to hand training involving knives in the service and another weapon is not required. I will admit that i would like to be on even terms in that situation Yea, i guess that might be a better way to go. I was just looking at the CSL with knives as Technical and Tactical proficiency, you know how to fight better with it and also reflecting you know how to react to an attacker with a knife better than someone without the CSL.

[prestidigitator]

Re: A level of confusion

 

Well, if they character had +4 3 pt levels with swords.... would you allow them to have those levels blocking people with swords using their bare hands? Even if you impose a penalty for blocking an armed opponent while you are unarmed... I'm dubious.

 

I have a tendency to view fighting unarmed, even against a weapon you are very familiar with, as sufficient different enough so as to merit different CSLs.

I wouldn't. If you wanted levels like that I'd allow you to take 8-point levels with HTH combat and Limit them to Only when using or defending against knives (-1) (or maybe -3/4).

[Sean Waters]

Re: A level of confusion

 

The other side of that is that levels with pistols allow you to use them for DCV against ranged attacks (unless the GM rules otherwise): how would having a pistol in hand, or having fired one that phase make you any better at avoiding incoming bullets than not having a pistol in hand?

 

The rules are an abstraction and do not have to be beased on 'real world' experiences, but should make sense by being internally consistent and, ideally, somewhat intuitive.

 

You can say that you can not get DCV from levels against ranged attacks - but then you have to ask "What about thrown objects?" that is a ranged attack and one that it is perfectly reasonable to be able to become skilled enough to avoid. If someone throws a rock at you you can see it coming and sidestep, and that could be represented by skill levels. The problem comes when you think of bullets: you can't see them in flight and they are too fast to effectively avoid - all you can do is make yourself a harder target in the first place. That is where imputing things to sfx intrudes though: the system does not differentiate between a bullet and a thrown rock - they are both ranged attacks.

[Hugh Neilson]

Re: A level of confusion

 

To me, DCV does not necessarily imply you can see each individual attack approaching you and duck out of the way. Rather, it involves taking evasive action against opponents who are, or could be, targeting you. While you can't see the bullet as it approaches and react to its line of fire, you can see the thug pull the gun out and point it at you.

 

Skill levels provide DCV against all attacks (in some cases restricted to HTH or Range), not the attacks you are skilled with. To me, this reflects the fact that your skill in using the attack or attacks you have purchased levels with can be translated into improving your own accuracy (OCV), enhancing the effectiveness of your attacks (DC's) or evading incoming attacks without reducing the effectiveness of your own attack (DCV). So, a skilled Swordsman can move around more randomly in combat and present less of a profile to attackers, making it more difficult to target him, while engaged in swordplay, while a skilled gunfighter can accomplish a similar objective when wielding a firearm.

[AirborneRob]

Re: A level of confusion

 

That pretty much goes back to my first post. To me it seemed reasonable to think that a DCV bonus from a CSL can be applied without a knife in hand. Body positioning, anticipating your opponents moves and reacting accordingly.

[Ninja-Bear]

Re: A level of confusion

 

Sean,

 

I got an ideas why you could get a DCV bonus with pistol in hand vs. range attacks. It might represent the fact that when aiming an armed opponent that could hit you back, it would affect your targeting alittle bit. Of course, this dosen't cover every special effect, but probally most situations.

[archermoo]

Re: A level of confusion

 

Well, the actual rule on point is on 6e1 page 69.

 

"Unless the GM permits otherwise, a character can only allocate a CSL on a Phase when he uses an attack/power that CSL applies to."

 

So if you buy a 3 point CSL with the small group "all knives", that skill level can be assigned in any phase that you are using a knife. If what you want is a

CSL that you can use for OCV or Damage with any knife, and for DCV anytime you are using a knife or being attacked by one, what you want is a limited 8 point CSL with all HTH combat. A -1 for all of the limitations brings it to 4 points, or slightly more expensive than the more limited "Only when using a knife" level. Sounds about right.

 

If you don't think that it makes sense for people to trained in such a way as to allow them to be harder to hit when using one type of attack but no harder to hit if they aren't using it, only let people use 8 or 10 points levels for DCV.

[AirborneRob]

Re: A level of confusion

 

Well, the actual rule on point is on 6e1 page 69.

 

"Unless the GM permits otherwise, a character can only allocate a CSL on a Phase when he uses an attack/power that CSL applies to."

 

So if you buy a 3 point CSL with the small group "all knives", that skill level can be assigned in any phase that you are using a knife. If what you want is a

CSL that you can use for OCV or Damage with any knife, and for DCV anytime you are using a knife or being attacked by one, what you want is a limited 8 point CSL with all HTH combat. A -1 for all of the limitations brings it to 4 points, or slightly more expensive than the more limited "Only when using a knife" level. Sounds about right.

 

If you don't think that it makes sense for people to trained in such a way as to allow them to be harder to hit when using one type of attack but no harder to hit if they aren't using it, only let people use 8 or 10 points levels for DCV.

 

Ok, so the best way to do what i was talking about would be best done with an all HTH CSL then? I think Manic Typist also stated as much just seemed to me that a DCV bonus could be applied w/o the knife in hand. I just have a different take on that singular application for knives but i dont have a problem if the spirit of it requires an 8 point CSL to accomplish it.

[Manic Typist]

Re: A level of confusion

 

I wouldn't. If you wanted levels like that I'd allow you to take 8-point levels with HTH combat and Limit them to Only when using or defending against knives (-1) (or maybe -3/4).

 

Actually, it sounds like you would, since I was talking about 3 pt levels and you offer it for an 8 pt level... which is just shy of an Overall level. Of course the higher value CSLs can do more.

 

Regardless, I find it messy and completely counter intuitive to assign weapon based CSLs for the OPPONENT's weapons (Unless of course they are bought "Only vs. X" or somesuch). It doesn't make much sense to me mechanically or SFX wise.

 

Another example- I have +4 with Swords, and +4 with Unarmed fighting. If I am facing a guy with a sword, well, it's to my advantage to toss away my sword so I can get a +8 (+4 Unarmed, +4 since the other guy is using a sword and since I know how to fight with that weapon I can therefore take him down?). That seems to be the logical continuation of the premise.

 

I can see those kind of CSLs, however, potentially providing a bonus to a Tactics roll or Analyze roll.

 

But if a player were to argue to me that because he is trained to use knives, he automatically should know how to fight against knives while unarmed, I'd probably tell him no and explain that that would have been covered in his unarmed course. Your options holding a knife and not holding a knife are very different, and knowing how to attack does not necessarily entail a sufficient level of understanding of how to block that attack under all circumstances.

[archermoo]

Re: A level of confusion

 

Ok' date=' so the best way to do what i was talking about would be best done with an all HTH CSL then? I think Manic Typist also stated as much just seemed to me that a DCV bonus could be applied w/o the knife in hand. I just have a different take on that singular application for knives but i dont have a problem if the spirit of it requires an 8 point CSL to accomplish it.[/quote']

 

I would say so.

 

I think the disconnect is much the same as it usually is in Hero. In Hero you are buying discrete game effects with your points. People have a tendency to think to themselves "Well, I'm buying X effect. Y effect is related to that, so it makes sense that buying X will also give me some Y." Which is more or less how it frequently works in other games. But not generally in Hero. And people seem to have an even harder time wrapping their brains around it when it isn't dealing with Powers.

 

Most people can fairly quickly grasp the idea that if they are buying a powerful focused light blast, if they only buy it using the Blast Power then "all" it does is normal damage. The normal instinct is to say "But since it is light, shouldn't it also blind them?" But fairly quickly they get used to the idea that if they want the extra effect of blinding their opponent that they need to also buy a Flash component for the power.

 

Skill levels work the same. People tend to say things like "Okay, I want to be better with knife fighting, so I'll buy 3 points levels with all knives. And since in my experience if you are trained with knives you are better at defending against knife attacks whether you are armed or not, I think I should be able to use the level for DCV any time I'm attacked with a knife whether I'm using one or not." Rather than looking at 3 points levels and seeing that they give you +1 OCV, +1 DCV or extra Damage only when you are using the Small Group (in this case all knives) that it works with, and then realizing that that might not be the best fit for what they are looking for.

[schir1964]

Re: A level of confusion

 

Possible House Rule: Every 5 Points (or some other number set by the GM) total spent on a skill may be used as a +1 DCV without needing to be wielding anything. Sort of a general knowledge of how to evade such attacks.

 

Just An Idea

 

- Christopher Mullins (8^D)

[Sean Waters]

Re: A level of confusion

 

Sean,

 

I got an ideas why you could get a DCV bonus with pistol in hand vs. range attacks. It might represent the fact that when aiming an armed opponent that could hit you back, it would affect your targeting alittle bit. Of course, this dosen't cover every special effect, but probally most situations.

 

That definitely makes sense, however any DCV applies to all attacks (the level increases your DCV) so would technically, if you can use it at all, apply even to attacks that you are unaware of - say you are being attacked by two opponents: one you can see and are drawing a bead on, the other hidden - the hidden opponent would get surprise, halving your DCV, but you would get to add the skill level to the total before halving.

[Sean Waters]

Re: A level of confusion

 

To me, DCV does not necessarily imply you can see each individual attack approaching you and duck out of the way. Rather, it involves taking evasive action against opponents who are, or could be, targeting you. While you can't see the bullet as it approaches and react to its line of fire, you can see the thug pull the gun out and point it at you.

 

Skill levels provide DCV against all attacks (in some cases restricted to HTH or Range), not the attacks you are skilled with. To me, this reflects the fact that your skill in using the attack or attacks you have purchased levels with can be translated into improving your own accuracy (OCV), enhancing the effectiveness of your attacks (DC's) or evading incoming attacks without reducing the effectiveness of your own attack (DCV). So, a skilled Swordsman can move around more randomly in combat and present less of a profile to attackers, making it more difficult to target him, while engaged in swordplay, while a skilled gunfighter can accomplish a similar objective when wielding a firearm.

 

This makes good sense too, but does not necessarily explain who a skilled gunfighter can not use his gun skill levels whilst swordfighting (unless he can - that is part of my confusion).

[archermoo]

Re: A level of confusion

 

Possible House Rule: Every 5 Points (or some other number set by the GM) total spent on a skill may be used as a +1 DCV without needing to be wielding anything. Sort of a general knowledge of how to evade such attacks.

 

Just An Idea

 

- Christopher Mullins (8^D)

 

I'd be more tempted to go with something like allowing 2 (or maybe more) levels that can normally be used for DCV in a limited way to be combined for a general +1 DCV. So if you have 4 3 points levels with all knives, even if you are unarmed you'd still be able to use those levels for +2 DCV. Easier to track that way if nothing else.

 

Though I'm not really sure that I think that kind of thing is needed at all.

[archermoo]

Re: A level of confusion

 

This makes good sense too' date=' but does not necessarily explain who a skilled gunfighter can not use his gun skill levels whilst swordfighting (unless he can - that is part of my confusion).[/quote']

 

Because he bought levels that can only be used while he is using a gun. If he wants levels that can be used in more circumstances he needs to buy different levels.

[Sean Waters]

Re: A level of confusion

 

Well, the actual rule on point is on 6e1 page 69.

 

"Unless the GM permits otherwise, a character can only allocate a CSL on a Phase when he uses an attack/power that CSL applies to."

 

So if you buy a 3 point CSL with the small group "all knives", that skill level can be assigned in any phase that you are using a knife. If what you want is a

CSL that you can use for OCV or Damage with any knife, and for DCV anytime you are using a knife or being attacked by one, what you want is a limited 8 point CSL with all HTH combat. A -1 for all of the limitations brings it to 4 points, or slightly more expensive than the more limited "Only when using a knife" level. Sounds about right.

 

If you don't think that it makes sense for people to trained in such a way as to allow them to be harder to hit when using one type of attack but no harder to hit if they aren't using it, only let people use 8 or 10 points levels for DCV.

More good points, but I'm not quite sure how it applies: first off the example at 6.1.69 mentions the possibility of using the knife skill for HtH DCV at the same time as the pistol level (used in this example for OCV). Now you COULD accomplish that, potentially, by making a multiple attack - but that forbids using skill levels unless they could apply to any of the attacks being used: I'm not sure how you could be considered using a knife and get to use the skill level.

 

The other problem - well, problem of implementation - is this - looking at the example in the OP, a musketeer whose group of weapons includes both ranged and HtH weapons. If you are attacking with a rapier you are using a skill level which COULD apply to a ranged attack, so presumably you could use the level to increase DCV, and presumably that would increase DCV against both ranged and HtH attacks as the level can apply to both.

 

I'm not sure how to rule on that one.

[archermoo]

Re: A level of confusion

 

More good points' date=' but I'm not quite sure how it applies: first off the example at 6.1.69 mentions the possibility of using the knife skill for HtH DCV at the same time as the pistol level (used in this example for OCV). Now you COULD accomplish that, potentially, by making a multiple attack - but that forbids using skill levels unless they could apply to any of the attacks being used: I'm not sure how you could be considered using a knife and get to use the skill level.[/quote']

 

That is the purpose of the "Unless the GM permits otherwise" part of the rule. Obviously as far as Steve is concerned in that particular instance simply being armed with a knife is sufficient to allow the level to be used for DCV on that particular attack.

 

The other problem - well, problem of implementation - is this - looking at the example in the OP, a musketeer whose group of weapons includes both ranged and HtH weapons. If you are attacking with a rapier you are using a skill level which COULD apply to a ranged attack, so presumably you could use the level to increase DCV, and presumably that would increase DCV against both ranged and HtH attacks as the level can apply to both.

 

I'm not sure how to rule on that one.

 

I certainly wouldn't allow someone to purchase a 3 point level for a group of weapons that included both ranged and HtH weapons, and I don't see how they could be defined as "a tight group of weapons". And for that matter I doubt I'd allow a 5 point level defined that way in general either. If you want levels that can be used for either HtH or Ranged attacks, you generally need to buy 10 point levels. If you want those levels to be restricted to only being usable when you are armed appropriately, buy them with a Limitation.

[Sean Waters]

Re: A level of confusion

 

That is the purpose of the "Unless the GM permits otherwise" part of the rule. Obviously as far as Steve is concerned in that particular instance simply being armed with a knife is sufficient to allow the level to be used for DCV on that particular attack.

 

Seems a reasonable interpretation.

 

I certainly wouldn't allow someone to purchase a 3 point level for a group of weapons that included both ranged and HtH weapons' date=' and I don't see how they could be defined as "a tight group of weapons". And for that matter I doubt I'd allow a 5 point level defined that way in general either. If you want levels that can be used for either HtH or Ranged attacks, you generally need to buy 10 point levels. If you want those levels to be restricted to only being usable when you are armed appropriately, buy them with a Limitation.[/quote']

 

I agree about the 3 point levels, but with 5 point levels you could certainly include both ranged and HtH attacks. Even ignoring the 'Musketeer Weapons', a lot of martial arts styles include unarmed and weapons elements as well as HtH and ranged attacks. It would seem to be legitimate to have (say) Kung Fu that included a strike, a block and a ranged strike, and included weapon elements. On the face of it that should be both a legitimate use for the level and allow you to use it in pretty much any situation.

 

The problem with that being that there is a potential utility gap depending on what you include in your level group.

[archermoo]

Re: A level of confusion

 

Seems a reasonable interpretation.

 

I'm glad you agree.

 

I agree about the 3 point levels, but with 5 point levels you could certainly include both ranged and HtH attacks. Even ignoring the 'Musketeer Weapons', a lot of martial arts styles include unarmed and weapons elements as well as HtH and ranged attacks. It would seem to be legitimate to have (say) Kung Fu that included a strike, a block and a ranged strike, and included weapon elements. On the face of it that should be both a legitimate use for the level and allow you to use it in pretty much any situation.

 

The problem with that being that there is a potential utility gap depending on what you include in your level group.

 

To me, ranged and HtH weapons/attacks are dissimilar enough that I can think of few situations that it would seem reasonable for a single skill level to apply to both. And in the situations that I did, I have no problems with using limited 10 point levels instead of 5 point levels.

 

Of note, just because things can be put into logical groups does not of necessity mean that those groupings are also functional ones. You could divide bladed weapons into those with wire wrapped hilts and those without. Perfectly reasonable groupings. However I wouldn't say that it would be reasonable to buy a single skill level that would apply to bladed weapons with wire wrapped hilts, but not to ones that didn't.

 

I prefer to look at all CSLs as being based on the 10 point level, and the 2, 3 5, and 8 point varieties just commonly used "pre-built" limited versions. Most uses for CSLs will fall into one of those categories. For ones that don't you just build your own.

[prestidigitator]

Re: A level of confusion

 

Actually' date=' it sounds like you would, since I was talking about 3 pt levels and you offer it for an 8 pt level... which is just shy of an Overall level. Of course the higher value CSLs can do more.[/quote']

Right. I would allow it with 8-point CSLs because they can apply to all HTH combat, including unarmed combat. You can use them when wielding a knife. You can use them when unarmed. You can use them when you pick up an Elvis statue. I'd allow that to be limited to just the cases where you are wielding a knife or defending against one, which is less of a limitation than only the case where you are wielding a knife (with that last being the equivalent of a 3-point level).