A level of confusion

[AirborneRob]

Re: A level of confusion

 

Right. I would allow it with 8-point CSLs because they can apply to all HTH combat' date=' including unarmed combat. You can use them when wielding a knife. You can use them when unarmed. You can use them when you pick up an Elvis statue. I'd allow that to be limited to just the cases where you are wielding a knife or defending against one, which is less of a limitation than [i']only[/i] the case where you are wielding a knife (with that last being the equivalent of a 3-point level).

 

Actually, you can only use an Elvis statue if you are wearing Blue Suede Shoes

[prestidigitator]

Re: A level of confusion

 

Blue Suede Shoes: 5-point CSLs with all Elvis paraphernalia; OIF (-1/2) [real cost: 3 points each]

[AirborneRob]

Re: A level of confusion

 

Blue Suede Shoes: 5-point CSLs with all Elvis paraphernalia; OIF (-1/2) [real cost: 3 points each]

 

 

Blue Suede Shoes: 5-point CSLs with all Elvis paraphernalia; OIF (-1/2), Limited Power ( Being stepped on causes the CSL's to lose all effectiveness) -2 [real cost: 1 point each]

[prestidigitator]

Re: A level of confusion

 

Touché! LOL.

[gojira]

Re: A level of confusion

 

I certainly wouldn't allow someone to purchase a 3 point level for a group of weapons that included both ranged and HtH weapons' date=' and I don't see how they could be defined as "a tight group of weapons".[/quote']

 

 

I probably would. Some types of training might actually cause such a combo to make sense. Police training for example, might include pistols, tonfa, and one type of HTH attack. Martial Arts could be similar.

 

I think however, the original question re. guns and knives, I'd probably allow either bonus, regardless of weapon held, but only one at a time. In other words, if Randol Irons was attacked by a knife weilder while Randol is holding a gun, Randol could use his knife fighting skills to get +1 DCV, or use his gun skill to get +1 OCV. But I would not allow Randol to get both +1 DCV from knife fighting while at the same time getting +1 OCV to shoot his foe. The fighting styles are different, the stances required are different, and the two don't mix.

 

So, using the GM option thing, I think you don't have to be holding the weapon in question, but you do have to be using that skill, so you can't really use other skills at the same time. Obviously, Ranged or HTH skills can always be used if appropriate, and All Combat and Overall skills can also always be used. I guess a 5 point skill could be used if it overlapped. (I.e., a fantasy Knight buys a 5 point combat skill "All knightly weapons" and then buys a further 3 point combat skill "Sword, Mace, Lance" because he's especially good with those knightly weapons.)

 

Just a couple of nickels, and sorry if that got stated up-thread, I didn't read every single post.

[Ninja-Bear]

Re: A level of confusion

 

That definitely makes sense' date=' however any DCV applies to all attacks (the level increases your DCV) so would technically, if you can use it at all, apply even to attacks that you are unaware of - say you are being attacked by two opponents: one you can see and are drawing a bead on, the other hidden - the hidden opponent would get surprise, halving your DCV, but you would get to add the skill level to the total before halving.[/quote']

 

Last time I did the math, you needed to added a bunch of levels before halving to really affect the final DCV after halving. And plus, if you think about it, even if you are hiding, there would still be some hesitation I think because again if you miss, you could get shot at. And who really wants to get shot at? Just wondering though, how often do you think this problem is going to come up?

[Sean Waters]

Re: A level of confusion

 

I'd agree with Archermoo about 3 point levels probably not being broad enough for multiple weapon types ('Pistols' alone is the sort of grouping you would have on a 3 pointer) BUT some weapons - and I'm thinking of Knives - can be used HtH and ranged and it seems reasonable to have a 3 point level with Knives, which could presumably be used as DCV against ranged and HtH attacks. The question is whether one level could be used as DCV against both ranged and HtH in a single phase. I can not see anything in the rules that precludes that.

 

I might have a go aat building levels starting at 10 points and limiting.

 

One interesting thing occurs to me: if you hve HtH levels you can still use them to defend against a ranged attack iff you use the Block maneouvre, which in 6e also workes against ranged attacks. I probably wouldn't allow HtH levels to add to dodge against ranged attacks though: that is one point in favour of block that I have not seem previously mentioned (although I may have missed it if it was).

[prestidigitator]

Re: A level of confusion

 

Well, a GM could always decide to just keep things simple and make DCV DCV; don't worry about the type of the incoming attack.

[Fireg0lem]

Re: A level of confusion

 

Yeah, our ruling is that 3 and 5 point levels may only contain one "class" (range/melee/mental), period. Otherwise it is just flat-out superior to DCV.

[prestidigitator]

Re: A level of confusion

 

Yeah' date=' our ruling is that 3 and 5 point levels may only contain one "class" (range/melee/mental), period. Otherwise it is just flat-out superior to DCV.[/quote']

Hmm. Well, I'm not sure about that. First those CSLs are not considered Persistent without Defense Maneuver IV. Second they only apply when using a particular (set of) weapon or attack. That means that even if they were Persistent, it's unlikely the character is going to be walking around all the time carrying his sword or with his Energy Blast charged up and ready to ignite. Even if he did, there are situations where those levels can be denied to him, like when he's been Disarmed or stripped of his gear/powers by something.

 

Huh. Which makes me reconsider weapon-based CSLs. It used to be you couldn't apply Limitations in general to CSLs under 5 points. Now there's just a note that a GM can place restrictions on what kind of CSLs can take Limitations. But it strikes me that weapon-based CSLs already basically have at least OIF (weapon of opportunity) on them, plus possibly a bit more limitation based on the fact that most of them can't be just any old type of weapon, but are limited to a more or less narrow class of weapons. So it seems like any kind of Focus Limitation applied to (weapon-based) CSLs is redundant and should be worth at most the difference between Obvious Inaccessible and Obvious Accessible (-1/2). If the Focus is Inaccessible, it should be worth a maximum of -0.

[Fireg0lem]

Re: A level of confusion

 

Hmm. Well' date=' I'm not sure about [i']that[/i]. First those CSLs are not considered Persistent without Defense Maneuver IV. Second they only apply when using a particular (set of) weapon or attack. That means that even if they were Persistent, it's unlikely the character is going to be walking around all the time carrying his sword or with his Energy Blast charged up and ready to ignite. Even if he did, there are situations where those levels can be denied to him, like when he's been Disarmed or stripped of his gear/powers by something.

 

For 3/5 the cost of DCV, you can easily afford the already-not-a-bad-idea Defense Manuever IV, which removes both those problems since it makes the levels default to DCV.

 

As far as "there are situations where those levels can be denied to him," there are a whole lot more situations where being able to shift them to OCV is way, WAY more useful than DCV.

[archermoo]

Re: A level of confusion

 

I probably would. Some types of training might actually cause such a combo to make sense. Police training for example' date=' might include pistols, tonfa, and one type of HTH attack. Martial Arts could be similar.[/quote']

 

I agree that there could easily be people for whom it would be convenient and/or cost effective to be able to roll together several mixed ranged and HtH attacks into one CSL. I just can't think of any off the top of my head that would make sense to me as being similar enough to each other to allow one CSL to apply to them all. Even to the level of knives. Fighting in HtH with a knife is an entirely different skill than throwing a knife.

[dmjalund]

Re: A level of confusion

 

Personally, I would have skill levels only apply when the character is doing a maneuver that involves the weapon. I.e. Blocking with a knife, or attacking with a knife will allow you to apply Knife Skill Levels, but just holding it won't.

[Hugh Neilson]

Re: A level of confusion

 

I agree that there could easily be people for whom it would be convenient and/or cost effective to be able to roll together several mixed ranged and HtH attacks into one CSL. I just can't think of any off the top of my head that would make sense to me as being similar enough to each other to allow one CSL to apply to them all. Even to the level of knives. Fighting in HtH with a knife is an entirely different skill than throwing a knife.

 

Are the two less related than a level with Strike, Haymaker and Block (applicable to any attacks), which is a common example of a 3 point level?

[archermoo]

Re: A level of confusion

 

Are the two less related than a level with Strike' date=' Haymaker and Block (applicable to any attacks), which is a common example of a 3 point level?[/quote']

 

In my opinion? Yes.

[Matt Holck]

Re: A level of confusion

 

scrap the dcv bonus in combat skill levels

 

blocking is handled with OCV

[Hugh Neilson]

Re: A level of confusion

 

Are the two less related than a level with Strike' date=' Haymaker and Block (applicable to any attacks), which is a common example of a 3 point level?[/quote']

 

In my opinion? Yes.

 

OK, so a 3 point level with knives allowing both HTH and Ranged knives is less reasonable than a 3 point level allowing the character to Strike, Haymaker or Block with any weapon - knives, clubs, swords, bare handed, axes, lightsaber, maces, flails...and let's ignore, for the moment, that Strikes and Haymakers can also be performed with ranged attacks.

 

I think our opinions will just have to differ.

[Sean Waters]

Re: A level of confusion

 

The thing is that the rules allow you to take a 3 point level with knives, and you can use a knife in HtH or throw it, so it can be used with both HtH and ranged attacks, so the level CAN apply to both ranged and HtH attacks and so it can apply to DCV againest either or both. The rules for a 3 point level are no different from the rules for a 10 point level - the thing about a 10 point level is that it can ALWAYS apply to ranged or HtH attacks - 3 point levels only can if you pick the right weapon (or the the GM OKs a tight group including HtH and ranged attacks).

 

The actual 'sfx' are icing over the cake of the mechanics, but the mechanics allow you to define a 3 point level as applying to dodge (which affects both ranged and HtH attacks), block (which affects both ranged and HtH attacks) and strike (which is a HtH attack). If you are striking, blocking or dodging then you can apply the level that phase. The level can apply to either HtH or ranged attacks. Even if you are using 'strike', it doesn't change the fact that the level can apply to ranged or HtH attacks and so the DCV can apply to ranged or HtH attacks, in fact both simultaneously. The same thing applies if you are using a 10 point level with 'strike' - just because 'strike' is a HtH attack, not a ranged attack, doesn't mean that the level is not capable of applying to ranged attacks - and so DCV against all attacks works.

 

That seems to be a problem with the way levels work - what you decide the level applies to changes how the level works mechanically.

[Hugh Neilson]

Re: A level of confusion

 

IIRC, "Strike" is the basic attack maneuver, and applies to ranged or HTH attacks. A standard Blast is a Strike.

[Sean Waters]

Re: A level of confusion

 

IIRC' date=' "Strike" is the basic attack maneuver, and applies to ranged or HTH attacks. A standard Blast is a Strike.[/quote']

 

I think you are right although any given strike as contained in a 3 point tight group would arguably have to be related to a particular attack; punch, laser, whatever.

[Kraven Kor]

Re: A level of confusion

 

My confusion is that "+1 with All Combat" is 10 points, equivalent to buying both OCV and DCV so my impression was that CSL's in 6E were +1 to OCV and DCV both unless otherwise specified:

 

+1 OCV with a single attack is not even an option under CSL's in HD6 - but it matches up to the cost of +1 OCV at a -2 "severely limited" limitation (5 / 3 = 1.666x rounds up to 2.) +1 with HTH is 5 points, however, which does not match up to "+1 (OCV or DCV) at a -1 "about half" limited power. Not exactly sure how CSL's are built "in the background" in 6E.

 

But again 10 points = +1 with all, and that seems to be exactly the same as just buying +1 OCV and DCV outright.

 

As to the conversation about the knife, I personally would rule that you only get the + to DCV when wielding the weapon not when fighting against said weapon if not yourself wielding one.

[Fireg0lem]

Re: A level of confusion

 

CSLs apply to OCV, DCV, or Damage - the third is why it is not strictly worse than +1 OCV and +1 DCV.

[archermoo]

Re: A level of confusion

 

My confusion is that "+1 with All Combat" is 10 points' date=' equivalent to buying [i']both OCV and DCV[/i] so my impression was that CSL's in 6E were +1 to OCV and DCV both unless otherwise specified:

 

+1 OCV with a single attack is not even an option under CSL's in HD6 - but it matches up to the cost of +1 OCV at a -2 "severely limited" limitation (5 / 3 = 1.666x rounds up to 2.) +1 with HTH is 5 points, however, which does not match up to "+1 (OCV or DCV) at a -1 "about half" limited power. Not exactly sure how CSL's are built "in the background" in 6E.

 

But again 10 points = +1 with all, and that seems to be exactly the same as just buying +1 OCV and DCV outright.

 

As to the conversation about the knife, I personally would rule that you only get the + to DCV when wielding the weapon not when fighting against said weapon if not yourself wielding one.

 

Last I checked not only was the +1 OCV only for a single attack available in HD, it is actually the default. And while a 10 point CSL in all combat costs the same as buying up both OCV and DCV by 1, the functionality isn't identical. For one, CSLs can be used for extra damage.

[Hugh Neilson]

Re: A level of confusion

 

Last I checked not only was the +1 OCV only for a single attack available in HD' date=' it is actually the default. And while a 10 point CSL in all combat costs the same as buying up both OCV and DCV by 1, the functionality isn't identical. For one, CSLs can be used for extra damage.[/quote']

 

I don't find the ability to add damage valuable enough to justify the cost for 10 point levels. I can buy DCV and Damage Classes instead, and trade down DC's for OCV if I want. Now I get +1 DC for every OCV I sacrifice, as well as having the DCV at all times. I have to pay for 0 END DC's (or buy up my END), so it's a bit more expensive, but a lot more useful. I could slap the DCV in a Multi with OCV if I want even more flexibility.

 

But lower cost skill levels suffer the reverse problem. If I buy +10 3 point levels, that's cheaper than buying +5 0 END DC's in the attack those skill levels apply to, but considerably more versatile. That also seems like an inappropriate result.

 

The problem is that we don't have a base price for "+1 DC to any attack". We can only kludge one up with Aid/Boost or VPP constructs. And the cost doesn't decline if we restrict the number of attacks it can be used to enhance, where the OCV/DCV aspect of skill levels does.