Deflection Vs Area of Effect

[Shinobi Killfis]

As I understand it you can block at range with deflection, but since block does not work against area of effects you can't deflect area of effects. So how would you do that. I mean if I have the telekinetic ability to swat stuff out of the sky, why aren't I swatting the grenade away before it gets close enough to do any damage. If deflection does not work, what does if anything?

 

The ability to stop a missile, or throw back a grenade is fairly iconic and yet I can't find a way to do it.

[Escafarc]

Re: Deflection Vs Area of Effect

 

Use Barrier.

 

As for a Grenade they are sometimes given the Can be Deflected limitation.

[Fearghus]

Re: Deflection Vs Area of Effect

 

I find it best to work from special effect on this sort of thing. If the special effect of an AOE Blast is a grenade... then I may allow a telekinetic ability to swat it away. the grenade still goes off and does damage, just not where the attacker wanted it to. Most things like this are GM calls. It also helps if the power is built with limitations to simulate the real game effects.

[Naanomi]

Re: Deflection Vs Area of Effect

 

I second the 'can be deflected' limitation being used every time it is appropriate... grenades can be baseball-batted back at someone in a theatrical setting!

[Kraven Kor]

Re: Deflection Vs Area of Effect

 

I could also see a deflection bought with an equal advantage "Can deflect AE Attacks" might work. Say, for someone with dimensional powers or reflective force fields or some such.

[Hyper-Man]

Re: Deflection Vs Area of Effect

 

Use Barrier.

 

As for a Grenade they are sometimes given the Can be Deflected limitation.

 

I agree.

 

Another good example would be the fight between Obi-Wan and other Jedi vs. Jango Fett where Fett uses his armor's built in flame-thrower.

There is no tight effect to target so they couldn't use the Force to deflect it.

 

If Fett where to throw a molitov cocktail (another form of grenade) the bottle could be targeted before it reaches its final target.

[Shinobi Killfis]

Re: Deflection Vs Area of Effect

 

Thanks for the ideas. It just seems weird to me that something that I see in comics and movies so frequently is not possible in a system that handles as much as hero does. I mean throwing back grenades, the super hero catching the missile and redirecting it, heat vision shooting missiles out of the sky all are fairly common.

[Fireg0lem]

Re: Deflection Vs Area of Effect

 

Yeah, I would agree that this should be a property of the attack (Can Be Missile Deflected) rather than of the Deflection.

[Hyper-Man]

Re: Deflection Vs Area of Effect

 

Thanks for the ideas. It just seems weird to me that something that I see in comics and movies so frequently is not possible in a system that handles as much as hero does. I mean throwing back grenades' date=' the super hero catching the missile and redirecting it, heat vision shooting missiles out of the sky all are fairly common.[/quote']

 

It's not that those actions are not possible. It's that Block is not always the best mechanic. Catching a missile and throwing it back is better represented by Grab & Throw. Using Heat Vision to shoot a missile out of the sky might use the Ranged Deflection Power (or just using a 'Heat Vision' attack verses the missile, depending on how the missile was actually constructed within the rules).

 

Key concept to HERO that is one of the hardest to really 'get' is that mechanics and special effect are normally divorced. Sometimes they may appear to be in line with one another (telekinetic sfx vs. Telekinesis the HERO Power) but they don't have to be. Teleportation the HERO Power with appropriate Limitations (like Must Cross Intervening Space) can be used to model the 'superspeed' ability to 'move faster than the eye can see'.

[ghost-angel]

Re: Deflection Vs Area of Effect

 

Thanks for the ideas. It just seems weird to me that something that I see in comics and movies so frequently is not possible in a system that handles as much as hero does. I mean throwing back grenades' date=' the super hero catching the missile and redirecting it, heat vision shooting missiles out of the sky all are fairly common.[/quote']

 

Incorrect - Hero is about The Interaction of Special Effects and Properly Modeling Special Effects.

 

A properly modeled grenade is Deflectable, a properly SFX'd Game will allow you to Deflect a Grenade with the Proper Deflection SFX:

A point defense laser system may destroy it prematurely, a telekinetic shield bouncing it away may redirect it.

 

Hero absolutely allows for the things you see in comics and movies. But you have to build your game around those ideas.

[MyChampionsHero]

Re: Deflection Vs Area of Effect

 

also might want to take a look at skill lvl's w/ bouncing (usable against others) (area affect-cone)

[Shinobi Killfis]

Re: Deflection Vs Area of Effect

 

Incorrect - Hero is about The Interaction of Special Effects and Properly Modeling Special Effects.

 

A properly modeled grenade is Deflectable, a properly SFX'd Game will allow you to Deflect a Grenade with the Proper Deflection SFX:

A point defense laser system may destroy it prematurely, a telekinetic shield bouncing it away may redirect it.

 

Hero absolutely allows for the things you see in comics and movies. But you have to build your game around those ideas.

 

Yes, but it is odd that something this common requires so many hoops to jump through to reach. And while yes people can model their grenade to allow this, I have yet to see a modeled grenade, rocket etc in any published material that allows it. I may have missed it in dark champions or something, but can be deflected, designing it as a vehicle(except maybe at the nuke level), or a time delay I just don't see.

[Hyper-Man]

Re: Deflection Vs Area of Effect

 

Yes' date=' but it is odd that something this common requires so many hoops to jump through to reach. And while yes people can model their grenade to allow this, I have yet to see a modeled grenade, rocket etc in any published material that allows it. I may have missed it in dark champions or something, but can be deflected, designing it as a vehicle(except maybe at the nuke level), or a time delay I just don't see.[/quote']

 

Part of the reason for this is that in Heroic settings like Dark Champions the characters are not paying points for equipment (at least not directly, equipment pools are a Perk). Therefore getting the builds 'right' is not as important as in a Supers/Champions setting. Heck, no published builds use Invisible Power Effects to model that people can't normally see a bullet in flight (and therefore shouldn't be able to Block/Deflect them either) but since most GM's don't want to worry about that level of detail it's not in the published builds. The published material takes a middle of the road approach to detail (both heroic and superheroic) but just because it's published does not mean it is the only way to build stuff. Steve Long has essentially said that when a published build conflicts with a published rule, go with the rule first. The fact that a published build deviates from a rule just means GM permission is required before using that build. It's just a place to start from.

[prestidigitator]

Re: Deflection Vs Area of Effect

 

It used to be (in 5E) that things like grenades could be Missile Deflected base on their having the SFX of being carried in a deflectable package until detonation. Such attacks didn't (usually) apply a Limitation allowing them to be deflected. A lot of the builds you see may be carry-overs of that. Of course, I still don't see it as a bad approach to take in terms of SFX interaction. In fact, with the right Deflection (or general power if Block might apply) SFX, I think it would be reasonable to allow certain AoE's that aren't grenades to be Deflected also, weighing in common sense as always (perhaps comparing areas, spreading, range, etc.). I do think it's best that AoE powers that can be generally and consistently Blocked/Deflected take the Limitation, but I am also a firm believer in allowing context to weigh in.

[ghost-angel]

Re: Deflection Vs Area of Effect

 

I mediate it through SFX Interaction - don't have to worry about "builds" -- if it seems plausible in a game you can use a baseball bat to deflect an incoming grenade - you can do so, regardless of "the rules" and "the build," specifically because grenade SFX should be able to get deflected.

[Hugh Neilson]

Re: Deflection Vs Area of Effect

 

Yes' date=' but it is odd that something this common requires so many hoops to jump through to reach. And while yes people can model their grenade to allow this, I have yet to see a modeled grenade, rocket etc in any published material that allows it.[/quote']

 

As Hyper-Man notes, when you don't pay points for the equipment, the precision of the build is much less relevant.

 

Most published weapons have the "real weapon" limitation. I would take that limitation to include "apply common sense to all interactions", such that, if a given SFX could reasonably deflect the attack, then it can be deflected. However, I would note that the typical "deflection" result also does not apply. Normally, a deflected attack is eliminated from having any effect. The grenade may have been redirected, but it will still go off. That may act to your benefit with a baseball bat, but not with a Kinetic Energy Removal Field that just results in the grenade falling at your feet and going off there.

 

How precise do we want to be? Do we also add a timer to the grenade, such that the character may pick it up and throw it back? How do we simulate throwing yourself on the grenade to save your buddies? The answers depend on the nature of the campaign, and may or may not modify the actual build.

[Sean Waters]

Re: Deflection Vs Area of Effect

 

Yes' date=' but it is odd that something this common requires so many hoops to jump through to reach. And while yes people can model their grenade to allow this, I have yet to see a modeled grenade, rocket etc in any published material that allows it. I may have missed it in dark champions or something, but can be deflected, designing it as a vehicle(except maybe at the nuke level), or a time delay I just don't see.[/quote']

 

I wouldn't say building an AoE that should obviously be deflectable with 'can be deflected' is jumping through too many hoops, but then I also have to say that published example characters rarely seem to be the finest examples of the system at its best.

 

Grenades are awkward anyway: if someone knows how long the fuse is (and is brave or foolish enough to rely on the fuse always being a predictable length) then they can pull the pin and wait before throwing it so that it explodes when it reaches the target, so even if you do 'baseball bat' it on the volley, it does off in your face.

 

No system can pefectly simulate everything though. Well, maybe physics can, but that gets a little complicated. Point is, if it worries you, do what I do: assume everything comes with a +0 advantage/limitation that it behaves as described in the sfx. We have this thing about divorcing sfx and mechanics, but sometimes that just doesn't work well (adjustment powers, anyone?). SFX can be considered a mandatory +0 modifier which simulates minor advantages and limitations.

 

A grenade should be built as a triggered, timed, can be deflected attack, perhaps, but calling an attack a grenade allows you to employ the SFX +0 modifier:, which covers all that anyway - most of the time you just throw the thing and it goes off. Sometimes you throw it and it gets deflected. Sometimes the guy deflecting it doesn't realise you waited before lobbing it. It all pretty much balances.

 

There's an old Hero trope about the point cost to build a fork: you'd be amazed how many things you can do with a fork and how many powers you might need to simulate that, but ultimately it is easier to call it a 1 point KA with sfx: fork. Everyone knows what is going on. Another example is flame powers: presumably, if your attack is flame based then it can set stuff on fire, but there is not a simgle modifier for that. You can build it (as some sort of continuous attack with a continuous aid to AoE so long as there is fuel) but it is easier yo just use the notional +0 modifer: flame attack. You can set stuff on fire with it and sometimes that is good and sometimes that is bad.

[Sean Waters]

Re: Deflection Vs Area of Effect

 

I suppose that a grenade is a 1 pip blast (physical) - to simulate throwing a lump of metal at someone - with a linked triggered and delayed effect attack (AoE energy blast possibly plus AoE KA for shrapnel). The AoE is not deflectable normally but the 1 pip blast is-u can deflect it before it explodes. Presumably you also need to make that a VPP or MP because you could potentially dismantle the grenade and use the explosive charge for something else. You COULD be there all day designing that.

[Ice9]

Re: Deflection Vs Area of Effect

 

Or just give every character a "has hands and a brain" VPP.

[Tech]

Re: Deflection Vs Area of Effect

 

All too often, players look at the power-building aspect of a power, in this case grenades, rockets, etc., but forget another aspect of it: special effects. Special effects are as much a solid aspect of what is being built in character points as the power used to create it (whether Killing Attack, Energy Blast, Area Effect, etc.) When I run a game, if someone wants to do something that is logical, I allow it whether it's been built or not.

 

A grenade is a common example but another one is an arrow with an area-effect/explosion built into it. That arrow should be able to be deflected and I grant it as GM to a player who wants to try to deflect it.

[Sean Waters]

Re: Deflection Vs Area of Effect

 

One way to deflect AoE's is to make the target hex harder to hit. DCV levels, useable by others and AoE can make whole areas harder to hit, which can mean that it is harder to hit you with an AoE, even if it is not bought with 'can be deflected'.