dugfromthearth Posted October 4, 2003 Report Share Posted October 4, 2003 The rules do not say to penalize for a failed complementary skill roll, but it seems odd that it can provide a bonus but not a penalty. The general question is I guess - do you consider skills to be "safe". Meaning if they succeed you get accurate information, if they fail you get no information. Or do you allow skills to fail and provide incorrect information? I know stealth, climbing and other skills can fail. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lord Mhoram Posted October 4, 2003 Report Share Posted October 4, 2003 Nope. I look at complementary skill rolls as the "oh - here is something you might know from another field that can help you in this task". If you fail the roll, it just means you don't have the helpful extra information- it has no bearing on your native ability to perform the primary skill. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
austenandrews Posted October 4, 2003 Report Share Posted October 4, 2003 About the only time I give wrong information is when a skill roll fails spectacularly. On a 17 or 18, the player is usually willing to play the character as unaware of their mistake. On less drastic failures, it becomes a deterrance against using skill rolls that aren't bought up to a high level. I want to encourage skill use, not discourage it. As for complementary skills, I have a general philosophy that applies. Namely, someone with a Familiarity in a skill always has a better chance than someone with no skill at all. Too often I've seen the non-skilled PC get a Char roll while the PC with the Fam gets an 8-less roll. But they shouldn't get penalized for having spent that point. Makes no sense. Similarly, someone with a complementary skill always has an advantage over someone without one. They still have to make the roll to get a bonus, but no, I don't give penalties for missed comp skill rolls. That would discourage their use. The only exception is a roll of 18, which pretty much always guarantees something to go wrong regardless of the circumstances. -AA Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
dugfromthearth Posted October 4, 2003 Author Report Share Posted October 4, 2003 suppose you try seduction as a complementary skill to conversation. so it isn't simply a knowledge skill. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
austenandrews Posted October 4, 2003 Report Share Posted October 4, 2003 Originally posted by dugfromthearth suppose you try seduction as a complementary skill to conversation. so it isn't simply a knowledge skill. Same difference. A spectacularly failed roll means the Seduction backfired. Maybe the target pretends to be charmed but sees through the ruse. Maybe the target just gets really annoyed at the character's attempts to charm them. Depends on the situation. A normally failed roll just means Seduction didn't help. -AA Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
lemming Posted October 4, 2003 Report Share Posted October 4, 2003 Re: Do you give penalties for failed complementary skill rolls? Originally posted by dugfromthearth The rules do not say to penalize for a failed complementary skill roll, but it seems odd that it can provide a bonus but not a penalty. I don't like to penalize characters for having additional skills to bear on the situation. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
pinecone Posted October 4, 2003 Report Share Posted October 4, 2003 I'm in the same boat...I don't like the logic of getting hosed for knowing too much..."Hah! you are hosed now Maven,if only you had not been so smart!" basicly probibility says the more rolls the higher the chance of one roll being far from average, so the more you know, the more chances to get hosed by a bad roll....just dosn't seem logical to me. Though others may feel differant. I do sometimes let bad rolls have a minor effect if it is humorous or fits the tone or character. So if Lucky Pierre,canadian extrodinair blows his seduction roll , I say Hmm your compliment of the large size of her rear does not seem to endeared her to you at all,but she decides that you are ,refeshingly, not interested in dating her and has a long conversation with you anyway....jeez what are the odds of that happening? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
dugfromthearth Posted October 5, 2003 Author Report Share Posted October 5, 2003 [i'm in the same boat...I don't like the logic of getting hosed for knowing too much] It wouldn't be knowing too much. It would be over-reaching and thinking you knew something you did not. what would be a spectacular failure? failing by 5, by 10, rolling double what you needed? I can certainly understand a normal failure being simply no effect. If you think some failures should have an effect do you have some rule for it? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
austenandrews Posted October 5, 2003 Report Share Posted October 5, 2003 For me, an 18 always has some detrimental (though not necessarily disastrous) effect. Likewise a 3 always has a very positive effect (like "max damage, pick the hit location" for attacks). That goes for any roll, not just complementary skill rolls. You know how special it feels to roll one of those, so I like to use them as pseudo-randomizers in the story. On rare circumstances I'll let 4 & 17 serve a similar function. That's usually to further some plot goal I have in mind, though, and make it look vaguely random. -AA Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JmOz Posted October 7, 2003 Report Share Posted October 7, 2003 On an 18 they get a -3, otherwise no Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dust Raven Posted October 7, 2003 Report Share Posted October 7, 2003 Re: Do you give penalties for failed complementary skill rolls? Originally posted by dugfromthearth The rules do not say to penalize for a failed complementary skill roll, but it seems odd that it can provide a bonus but not a penalty. The general question is I guess - do you consider skills to be "safe". Meaning if they succeed you get accurate information, if they fail you get no information. Or do you allow skills to fail and provide incorrect information? I know stealth, climbing and other skills can fail. Complimentary skills provide a bonus to a different, related skill roll. If you would give someone a penalty for failing a complimentary roll, what kind of penalty would you give somene who didn't even have the complimentary skill? I don't think this is fair (or heroic), so if a complimentary skill roll is failed, it just doesn't add a bonus. And personally...I've never seen Stealth or Climbing used as complentary skills. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dust Raven Posted October 7, 2003 Report Share Posted October 7, 2003 Originally posted by dugfromthearth [i'm in the same boat...I don't like the logic of getting hosed for knowing too much] It wouldn't be knowing too much. It would be over-reaching and thinking you knew something you did not. what would be a spectacular failure? failing by 5, by 10, rolling double what you needed? I can certainly understand a normal failure being simply no effect. If you think some failures should have an effect do you have some rule for it? I don't have any rule for it (see above post). If I did, it would probably be loosly based on the skill roll failed, and what situations that could possibly create. Then see what penalties that situation would impose on the other skill roll. Example: If Bob The Climber was climbing up Mt. Bob, he could use his AK or KS: Mt. Bob as complementary to his Climbing roll to see which would be the best route to climb up. Failing his complementary skill roll spectaculary, he has forgotten that the route he just chose leads to a sheer cliff face. His penalty would be that for any sheer cliff face, unless he chooses to go back and look for a different route. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
prestidigitator Posted October 8, 2003 Report Share Posted October 8, 2003 Very rarely I might say something like, "You can try to use your Climbing as a Complimentary roll, but you might fall if you (badly) fail it." I don't do this often, as Complimentary skills should generally help, not hinder. I reserve it for circumstances where the character is trying to gain the benefit of a Complimentary Skill to do something pretty exceptional, complicated, or when the normal chances of success are minute. I also always warn the player when there is a risk in using a Complimentary Skill in this way; the player should know what (s)he is getting him-/her-self into, and the chances of making things worse. Rolling an 18, however, might have bad results in any case. As for the results of normal skill rolls, I usually have the player tell me how much the roll succeeded or failed by. Usually, if it was marginal the character may not have completely satisfactory results, if it was made by 2-5 it is a complete success, for 6-9 it is an amazing success, and if made by 10 or more the results are truely exceptional. Likewise, if the roll failed by 1-5, it is just a failure, if it failed by 6-9 there might be some detrimental side effects, and if it failed by 10 or more things are bound to go quite wrong (though usually not truely disasterous unless an 18 is rolled)--maybe wrong information, incidental mishappenings, bad luck, etc. I vary this from time to time, based on circumstance and whim, but I don't think the players are ever disappointed by the outcome, especially because I tend to make exceptional success or failure quite dramatic, and sometimes rather humorous. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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