Brittlizing an Engine

[yamamura]

In Champions Powers there is Ice power that allows you to drain the PD/ED of an object. My question is if you reduce the PD/ED of a car's engine down to zero would the engine tear itself apart if it was running. My thought on this is that the body should be enough to hold it together and continue to run and that the drain should not allow for the engine to destroy itself. But I am curious. Any other opinions?

[Escafarc]

Re: Brittlizing an Engine

 

In Champions Powers there is Ice power that allows you to drain the PD/ED of an object. My question is if you reduce the PD/ED of a car's engine down to zero would the engine tear itself apart if it was running. My thought on this is that the body should be enough to hold it together and continue to run and that the drain should not allow for the engine to destroy itself. But I am curious. Any other opinions?

 

Is the Special FX of the power to freeze the object and make it brittle? Then in that case I could see the engine breaking apart.

[Hyper-Man]

Re: Brittlizing an Engine

 

Considering that it's possible to crack a hot engine block just by quickly dousing it with water I think freezing it should be able to do much worse.

[Hugh Neilson]

Re: Brittlizing an Engine

 

Is the Special FX of the power to freeze the object and make it brittle? Then in that case I could see the engine breaking apart.

 

A Drain of defense only does not mechanically do damage, so I would say the power as written does not result in the object damaging itself. The SFX should not provide a significant mechanical benefit outside that paid for. If the desired effect includes causing the device to break from its own moving parts, that additional mechanical effect should be purchased.

 

To achieve that effect, I would buy a Linked killing attack which does, say, 1d6 BOD (uncontrolled continuous) per phase, only when the object is operating using moving parts. Once the device falls below 6 defense, it would have a chance of breaking up from its own operations. A Linked change environment that inflicts minor BOD each phase of operations would make sense as an alternative mechanical construction.

[Hyper-Man]

Re: Brittlizing an Engine

 

A Drain of defense only does not mechanically do damage, so I would say the power as written does not result in the object damaging itself. The SFX should not provide a significant mechanical benefit outside that paid for. If the desired effect includes causing the device to break from its own moving parts, that additional mechanical effect should be purchased.

 

To achieve that effect, I would buy a Linked killing attack which does, say, 1d6 BOD (uncontrolled continuous) per phase, only when the object is operating using moving parts. Once the device falls below 6 defense, it would have a chance of breaking up from its own operations. A Linked change environment that inflicts minor BOD each phase of operations would make sense as an alternative mechanical construction.

 

I might agree with you if we were talking about using said ability vs. a vehicle that a character paid points for. However, vs. normal internal combustion and diesel engines a great deal of engineering goes into making them just strong enough to not destroy themselves without being too heavy to provide useful power. It's a real world equivalent to the old Star Trek standby of losing power to maintain magnetic containment of the anti-matter in the engine core.

[Hugh Neilson]

Re: Brittlizing an Engine

 

I might agree with you if we were talking about using said ability vs. a vehicle that a character paid points for. However' date=' vs. normal internal combustion and diesel engines a great deal of engineering goes into making them just strong enough to not destroy themselves without being too heavy to provide useful power.[/quote']

 

"Realistically", my car starts at temperatures in the -35 range. How brittle is it? How much cold is required? Game mechanically, we buy the abilities which are desired to be achieved with the special effects in question. If you want to cause damage, you buy a power which causes damage. Why should this defense drain also cause damage if a mechanically identical power, with the exact same costs but a slightly different SFX (it makes the substance softer, perhaps) not also cause damage by default? Maybe it should - the engine is no longer physically strong enough to withstand the damage caused by its own power.

 

Rabbits' bones are brittle enough that they can break their own backs with a full power kick. Should a Defense Drain applied to a strong character result in his own exertions causing him damage, or should such an effect cost points?

 

Certainly, we could establish a campaign ground rule that "real tech" can break solely from losing defenses, but that begs the question why a Super's SuperCar doesn't suffer similarly when it's just a higher end version of the same technology. I'd rather stick to purchasing the mechanical effects, outside the occasional, and very minor, one time benefit from creative use of powers, SFX and perhaps the power skill itself. It might work once or twice, but if you want it to be reliable with frequent use, buy the ability.

[Manic Typist]

Re: Brittlizing an Engine

 

Slap on the Real Equipment Limitation and call it a day?

[gojira]

Re: Brittlizing an Engine

 

I'd go with SFX, myself.

[CrosshairCollie]

Re: Brittlizing an Engine

 

Making a car engine so cold it would fall apart or stop working would be a different power (Dispel? RKA?), I'd think. A DEF 0 object doesn't automatically fall apart.

[Xavier Onassiss]

Re: Brittlizing an Engine

 

Draining all the engine's DEF (or PD & ED) doesn't destroy it, by definition -- to do that, you have to reduce it to 0 Body. Like Hugh Neilson said -- if the power is meant to destroy its target, then the DEF drain should have another power linked to it, which does Body damage or drains Body. Whatever works.

[Hyper-Man]

Re: Brittlizing an Engine

 

Draining all the engine's DEF (or PD & ED) doesn't destroy it' date=' by definition -- to do that, you have to reduce it to 0 Body. Like Hugh Neilson said -- if the power is meant to destroy its target, then the DEF drain should have another power linked to it, which does Body damage or drains Body. Whatever works.[/quote']

 

So by your logic if the Drain targeted the vehicle's tires they wouldn't run a higher risk of blowout when driven on either.

That makes no sense.

 

We are talking about systems that are already in a precarious balance. The Drain isn't doing damage, it's upsetting the balance between opposing forces that was already there to begin with.

[Xavier Onassiss]

Re: Brittlizing an Engine

 

So by your logic if the Drain targeted the vehicle's tires they wouldn't run a higher risk of blowout when driven on either.

That makes no sense.

 

We are talking about systems that are already in a precarious balance. The Drain isn't doing damage, it's upsetting the balance between opposing forces that was already there to begin with.

 

Don't be ridiculous.

 

Yes, tires with no DEF have an extreme risk of blowing out -- whatever the Body score of a tire is, it's not high. They'll blow out as soon as their Body's gone, which won't take much -- they'll take full damage from anything everything that hits them.

 

As for "systems in precarious balance" -- what does that even mean? "Oh, with its DEF gone, this device will suddenly start doing damage to itself and be destroyed!" Nonsense.

[CrosshairCollie]

Re: Brittlizing an Engine

 

I'm with Xavier. With all their DEF depleted, the tires are going to be more susceptible to damage ... however, their DEF being depleted will not damage the tires in and of itself, even if the car is moving. By the same token, depleting the DEF of the engine renders it more susceptible to damage ... but that does not damage the engine by itself.

 

If you want to break something, you have to deal damage to it (or Dispel, I suppose). If you want to freeze something to the point where it collapses under its own weight, link an attack to the freezing power with the limitation 'Only when target's DEF is zero'.

[Hyper-Man]

Re: Brittlizing an Engine

 

Let's say Green Lantern creates a ring-energy bridge across a wide ravine so a large number of people in danger from a forest fire can cross safely.

Say the HERO mechanic used is Barrier.

Say a villain with energy siphoning powers drains the 'energy bridge' via the HERO mechanic Drain.

The arguments being put forth would indicate that the people crossing the energy bridge would NOT fall because it's not actually being affected by an 'attack power'!?!

 

Say a Drain vs. DEF is used vs. a Bomb Disposal Container like this:

 

If a bomb goes off in side of it while its defenses are reduced is there really a functional difference between this and using Dispel?

And back to the original subject:

An internal combustion engine is primarily designed to harness useful mechanical energy from small explosions without destroying itself.

[CrosshairCollie]

Re: Brittlizing an Engine

 

So, if I drain your character's PD or ED down to zero, he dies?

[Hyper-Man]

Re: Brittlizing an Engine

 

So' date=' if I drain your character's PD or ED down to zero, he dies?[/quote']

 

I already mentioned early in the thread that I agree that further abilities would be necessary to actually destroy the target if character points were spent on its construction.

 

I might agree with you if we were talking about using said ability vs. a vehicle that a character paid points for. However' date=' vs. normal internal combustion and diesel engines a great deal of engineering goes into making them just strong enough to not destroy themselves without being too heavy to provide useful power. It's a real world equivalent to the old Star Trek standby of losing power to maintain magnetic containment of the anti-matter in the engine core.[/quote']

 

 

I have been talking about using Drain vs. normal or real equipment.

 

But it still doesn't discount the Green Lantern bridge example.

The defense of the Barrier used to build the bridge is what is supporting the otherwise crushing weight of the people crossing it. Green Lantern has to balance the size vs. the toughness of the bridge when creating it. Just like automobile engine designers have to balance weight to power ratio. Stronger materials (higher defense) are needed to make engines lighter for high-end sports cars for a reason.

[CrosshairCollie]

Re: Brittlizing an Engine

 

What about one of the core aspects of the HERO system: You Get What You Pay For? If you want to damage something, you buy a power that damages it. If you don't, then you don't damage things. It seems no more complicated than that to me. Claiming you can destroy a device with a Drain but no damaging power strikes me as no different from buying a Lightning Bolt as an Energy Blast and claiming you can blind people with it even if you didn't buy a Flash.

 

I also don't think regular-weight humans deal appreciable damage to things merely by standing on them, or else we would simply sink into zero-DEF dirt by standing on it, which we do not, so a Zero-DEF Forcewall/Barrier would continue to serve as a bridge.

[Hyper-Man]

Re: Brittlizing an Engine

 

What about one of the core aspects of the HERO system: You Get What You Pay For? If you want to damage something, you buy a power that damages it. If you don't, then you don't damage things. It seems no more complicated than that to me. Claiming you can destroy a device with a Drain but no damaging power strikes me as no different from buying a Lightning Bolt as an Energy Blast and claiming you can blind people with it even if you didn't buy a Flash.

 

I also don't think regular-weight humans deal appreciable damage to things merely by standing on them, or else we would simply sink into zero-DEF dirt by standing on it, which we do not, so a Zero-DEF Forcewall/Barrier would continue to serve as a bridge.

 

In each example I put forth if no attempt is made to actually use it for its intended purpose nothing gets destroyed.

Example: the car engine and tires will be fine when the Drain fades. they only suffer damage if used while the Drain is active.

[Xavier Onassiss]

Re: Brittlizing an Engine

 

In each example I put forth if no attempt is made to actually use it for its intended purpose nothing gets destroyed.

Example: the car engine and tires will be fine when the Drain fades. they only suffer damage if used while the Drain is active.

 

I'd allow this in my campaign, with the limitation Requires a Skill Roll: Professional Skill -- Hair Splitting, -1 per 5 active points.

[Hugh Neilson]

Re: Brittlizing an Engine

 

So by your logic if the Drain targeted the vehicle's tires they wouldn't run a higher risk of blowout when driven on either.

That makes no sense.

 

They run a higher risk of blowout if they take damage. For example, one might reasonably rule that slowly running over the curb causes 1 BOD damage. A normal tire would be unaffected, but with 0 DEF, the tire is sufficiently fragile to blow out.

 

However, nothing in Hero System causes tires to blow out unless they do take damage. In real life, tires have a random Fuel Charge and eventually wear out. How do we simulate that in Hero?

 

Don't be ridiculous.

 

Yes, tires with no DEF have an extreme risk of blowing out -- whatever the Body score of a tire is, it's not high. They'll blow out as soon as their Body's gone, which won't take much -- they'll take full damage from anything everything that hits them.

 

Exactly. Or anything they run over (move through backlash damage is a similar effect).

 

I already mentioned early in the thread that I agree that further abilities would be necessary to actually destroy the target if character points were spent on its construction.

 

So the SuperMobile is assumed to have extra-powerful tires, even if the character has simply statted out a normal sports car and paid for it to be available to him? The 18 wheeler's tires blow up, but the rickety bicycle which was paid for (very little, but paid for) has tires that just keep going?

 

But it still doesn't discount the Green Lantern bridge example.

The defense of the Barrier used to build the bridge is what is supporting the otherwise crushing weight of the people crossing it. Green Lantern has to balance the size vs. the toughness of the bridge when creating it. Just like automobile engine designers have to balance weight to power ratio. Stronger materials (higher defense) are needed to make engines lighter for high-end sports cars for a reason.

 

I believe the rule for walking on a barrier is that the weight is converted to STR (ie how much STR would it take to lift that weight) and rolled as damage to the barrier. So, if I have a 6 DEF, 4 BOD barrier, and 8 people walking on it, they do 5d6 (800 kg = 25 STR). It is possible, though unlikely, they will damage the barrier (unless we decide Standard Effect is appropriate, which seems reasonable). If the DEF of my Barrier is Drained to 2, the structural strength of my Barrier is seriously impaired and it will soon collapse under all that weight.

 

"Logically", if I hit you with a 12d6 Fire Blast, the SFX should have a chance of catching either you or your clothes on fire, such that you continue to burn and take damage. But, because we reason from effect in Hero, I either pay for that Damage over Time ability, or my fire blast never catches in this manner. The answer to "logically, my power should have this added benefit" is commonly "I agree - you should design the power so that the added benefit is included".

 

Now, fairly mundane effects which flow logically from the power and balance out? Sure. Your Flaming Aura can provide minimal light so you can see. But it also makes you a beacon in the shadows, impeding stealth. But if you want to create clear lighting out to 25 meters? Shell out the points and buy the ability. You want someone to take damage if they grab you because "my SFX are that I'm on fire"? Pay for a damaging attack because you're on fire! The game isn't about who can get the most freebies with creative arguments about SFX. Your SFX justify you purchasing certain abilities, not receiving them for free.

[Escafarc]

Re: Brittlizing an Engine

 

How about letting the character make a Power Skill Roll to do this?

[Ockham's Spoon]

Re: Brittlizing an Engine

 

This is a call for the GM as to how to handle it, but I see one of three ways, all equally valid depending on the campaign and perceived utility of this ability (and all mentioned above, but allow me to enumerate them)

 

1. The engine has the limitation "real world equipment". Part of that limitation is that it takes damage when supercooled.

 

2. Since this isn't likely to come up often, the GM can rule that the Drain can destroy the engine with an appropriate Power Skill roll.

 

3. Maybe this does happen often in a particular campaign, meaning that the ability is useful enough that the character has to pay points for an attack linked to the Drain.

[Hyper-Man]

Re: Brittlizing an Engine

 

I don't think this is a special effect issue at all. It doesn't matter what the sfx of the Drain is. It's whether the GM allows it to be specifically targeted vs. the engine (or tires) of a normal vehicle. The only sfx at play here is the one of the vehicle itself. Letting the player take advantage of that common knowledge is no worse than allowing characters to use general knowledge about the myths on vampires and werewolves.

[Hugh Neilson]

Re: Brittlizing an Engine

 

I don't think this is a special effect issue at all. It doesn't matter what the sfx of the Drain is. It's whether the GM allows it to be specifically targeted vs. the engine (or tires) of a normal vehicle. The only sfx at play here is the one of the vehicle itself. Letting the player take advantage of that common knowledge is no worse than allowing characters to use general knowledge about the myths on vampires and werewolves.

 

So it's common knowledge that the Resistant Defense stat of the tires or engine is the aspect which allows the tires to not blow out and the engine to not shake apart when it operates?

 

I would suggest that, if it is common knowledge that the attack in question would destroy the targeted object, then the attack should be purchased with a mechanic which destroys the object. A PD Drain or Defense Drain does not destroy objects any more than a Sight Flash or a Mind Control does, so if the effect you are envisioning is the destruction of the object, the Drain is no more appropriate a build than the Flash or Mind Control. Maybe you could buy the Drain with Does BOD (+1), but I think a linked damaging attack or, alternatively, just buying a damaging attack on its own achieves the desired effect.

[Manic Typist]

Re: Brittlizing an Engine

 

So the SuperMobile is assumed to have extra-powerful tires, even if the character has simply statted out a normal sports car and paid for it to be available to him? The 18 wheeler's tires blow up, but the rickety bicycle which was paid for (very little, but paid for) has tires that just keep going?

 

Well, yes. Because it is apparently a part of the Hero's schtick. It's part of his or her persona. It's dramatic. The Hero's stuff WORKs because he is the hero, the protagonist.

 

And I'd agree that supercooling an active, hot engine is Common Knowledge Bad Juju for the engine.

 

What to make of that, well, that's your call.