GM conundrum - CSLs

[TheSouljourner]

So I'm starting a Terran Empire campaign (heroic level), and one of my players just submitted a character who took 8 CSLs in Rifles. For a mere 24 points (a big investment, but not at all unreasonable given some people have 20 point psionic poewrs) he will now never ever miss with a rifle.

 

Obviously I can always just say no, but that sounds so artificial. What is ok, then, 4? 3? 6? And what do I tell him when he says "but I paid the points"? Are CSLs that undercosted?

[NuSoardGraphite]

Re: GM conundrum - CSLs

 

Your best solution here I think is to sit down with the player and explain to him that you don't want the characters to start out quite that good. Tell him its okay to have 4 or 5 CSL's that apply to one attack at a time (or however many you are comfortable with) but be aware that its possible this player wants his character to be one of the best marksmen in the galaxy, so eventually you will probably have to let him get more CSL's in rifles.

 

Of course, just because he has that many CLS's doesn't mean he'll never miss. There are all sorts of environmental penalties that can come into play. Cross-winds, rain, smoke or fog. Foliage and cover. Multiple people moving around in combat etc. Don't forget to apply Range Penalties as well. Those can be the great equalizer during ranged combat. And Martial Dodge is the Gm's friend. Powerful enemies should know this maneuver as well as possess a few Defensive CSL's. That will even out the odds quite a bit.

[Xavier Onassiss]

Re: GM conundrum - CSLs

 

Your best solution here I think is to sit down with the player and explain to him that you don't want the characters to start out quite that good. Tell him its okay to have 4 or 5 CSL's that apply to one attack at a time (or however many you are comfortable with) but be aware that its possible this player wants his character to be one of the best marksmen in the galaxy, so eventually you will probably have to let him get more CSL's in rifles.

 

Of course, just because he has that many CLS's doesn't mean he'll never miss. There are all sorts of environmental penalties that can come into play. Cross-winds, rain, smoke or fog. Foliage and cover. Multiple people moving around in combat etc. Don't forget to apply Range Penalties as well. Those can be the great equalizer during ranged combat. And Martial Dodge is the Gm's friend. Powerful enemies should know this maneuver as well as possess a few Defensive CSL's. That will even out the odds quite a bit.

 

You could also discuss with the player what he plans to use those levels for. If the answer is long-range shots, you might suggest he take some PSL's vs. Range. If he wants to be good at called shots, recommend PSL's v. hit locations. Both of those are good for making an 'expert marksman' character without a ridiculously high number of CSL's.

[ghost-angel]

Re: GM conundrum - CSLs

 

You could also request that he divide them out into a combination of Rifle CSLs, Ranged PSLs and Hit Location PSLs. Say, +2 Rifles, +4 Ranaged and +2 Vs Hit Loc. (as an example). He'll be a deadly shot, but not overwhelming. Some of the PSLs only come into play beyond short range, and some only when making called shots. Though he may start to try and make more called shots.

[stuartlaird]

Re: GM conundrum - CSLs

 

I think you are making a mistake comparing 20pt Powers to the CSL's.

The 20pt powers still need CSL's to make them work. In a Heroic campaign he is getting the 'Rifle' power as Equipment and then applying the CSL's to that. IMHO you have overlooked the magnification effect going on there.

Dont get hung up on artifical constraints... they need to be there to prevent people taking Absorbtion > Armor powers and the like. Too many CSL's is the same kind of issue.

What is acceptable is dependant on what you want the players to be doing. There chould be a maximum skill level CV level set for the game, I would imaging this exeeds those limits to start with.

As others have suggested talk it over with the player about what they think they will be doing and/or what they think the results of these choices are. You may be surprised what they 'think' they were buying.

Have some scenario's handy like on a rifle range, prone(brace), aimed and calculate out some of the probablities for target shooting and such things. Should help illuminate the discussions.

[purple justice]

Re: GM conundrum - CSLs

 

I thought the maximum was 8 CP for a 8-CSLs.

I understood when you spent over 8 CP you go to the next level : 10 CSLs

 

So if I created a character like Goku , I would create a 2-CSLs technic and I would nicknam it " Kaïoken Attack " wich'd cost me 20 CP and my OCV will reach +10 ?

Isn't it a little bit crazy ?

[Lucius]

Re: GM conundrum - CSLs

 

How much of the game is going to revolve around shooting rifles?

 

Rifles break down. Run out of ammunition (or energy, in this case.) Can't be concealed, and can't be carried in some circumstances. Can be damaged in combat. Can be stolen. Are hard to use if the enemy is right in your face.

 

A few situations where he has to use a pistol, or knife, or bare hands, and he'll start to think it's a better idea to buy fewer of the more expensive but more useful combat levels, rather than more of the less expensive but more specialized levels.

 

Lucius Alexander

 

Weapon Familiarity: Palindromedary Mounted Weapons

[GAZZA]

Re: GM conundrum - CSLs

 

I thought the maximum was 8 CP for a 8-CSLs. I understood when you spent over 8 CP you go to the next level : 10 CSLs

No, that isn't the way it works. The 8 point level is broader than (say) a 5 point level, but you are allowed to have 2 5 point levels and no 8 point levels. This isn't uncommon in fact.

 

So if I created a character like Goku , I would create a 2-CSLs technic and I would nicknam it " Kaïoken Attack " wich'd cost me 20 CP and my OCV will reach +10 ?

Isn't it a little bit crazy ?

That is legal, although it will break the maximum OCV limits in many games. Just like you can't usually have an 80d6 Blast for a 400 point character, even though you can technically afford it.

[Hugh Neilson]

Re: GM conundrum - CSLs

 

My first step would be to compare the character to other characters in the group, as you mention they have spent 20+ points on psychic powers. Those 8 CSL's will be very helpful in combat if he has a rifle. What can he do out of combat? How often will he have no rifle? Will opponents have abilities such as 24 points spent on Damage Negation, only vs Firearms (or only vs Mundane Weapons) making his CSL's useless?

 

Does he need +8 OCV to hit? If he would normally need a 10- (50% chance of hitting), then 4 levels brings him to a 90.74% chance to hit. The extra four will bring him to 99.54% (an 18 always misses). Is that as useful as, say, 24 points spent on a bundle of Naked Advantages such as AP or No Range Modifier on rifle shots? He can put some levels into enhancing DC's, of course. He could put them into DCV - will you enforce the rule that levels in ranged attacks don't enhance the target's DCV for HTH combat? That would significantly reduce the benefits of allocating these levels to DCV.

 

The levels will likely mean the character never misses with a rifle, or allow him to enhance damage, offset substantial penalties and/or make called shots. Is that more powerful than the psychic abilities purchased by the other PC's? Without the ability to compare the characters, I would have a tough time concluding that SuperMarksmanship is an overpowering ability.

[TheSouljourner]

Re: GM conundrum - CSLs

 

Thanks for the suggestions. I'm new to GMing Hero, though I've played a fair bit, and my players are all new except one, so it's possible he didn't realize what he was buying.... but my players have been playing RPGs for 15-20 years, so they're pretty good at understanding odds, and the effects of having +8 to a 3d6 roll.

 

Anyway, I like the idea of a variety of CSLs, vs range, hit locations, and regular CSLs. That'll still let him do trick shots and long shots pretty easily, without automatically hitting when he doesn't intentionally penalize himself.

 

Hugh, you make a good point. Naked advantages and other things could be more useful than +8 to hit. I guess I'm too used to D&D where bonuses to hit are really powerful, because it's easy to bump up your damage. But when you're using an off-the-rack 2d6 RKA, hitting more may not be as good as it seems.

 

I'll have to reevaluate, and give the players some more options with how to be good aside from just hitting a lot.

[purple justice]

Re: GM conundrum - CSLs

 

That is legal, although it will break the maximum OCV limits in many games. Just like you can't usually have an 80d6 Blast for a 400 point character, even though you can technically afford it.

Legal but totally uninteresting.

80d6 for an Energy Blast ? Why not . But the Game Master should tell the player a so massive quantity energy needs too much time to be used in combat. I mean 1MN over 10d6. So 8MN for this deadly - and useless - power.

But it 'd be interesting to create an energy blast who attack several persons . A 12d6 EB will attack four men with 3d6 per target.

[Tasha]

Re: GM conundrum - CSLs

 

Legal but totally uninteresting.

80d6 for an Energy Blast ? Why not . But the Game Master should tell the player a so massive quantity energy needs too much time to be used in combat. I mean 1MN over 10d6. So 8MN for this deadly - and useless - power.

But it 'd be interesting to create an energy blast who attack several persons . A 12d6 EB will attack four men with 3d6 per target.

 

Most Hero system GM's learn what range of power works for a given campaign. So you don't have someone who hands a character with a 20d6 energy blast in a game that works with a maximum of 14d6 and better with 12d6 attacks.

 

You can already take a blast and by every 1d6 the power is reduced in power you can hit one additional target in a hex that is adjacent to the first target. It's called Spreading your Energy blast for Area. OR one could build an energy blast with the Area of Effect Advantage. (3d6 blast is pretty small, vs any competent normal (ie 5 PD it does 5 stun and 0 body)

[purple justice]

Re: GM conundrum - CSLs

 

Thanks for the explanation.

 

Over 10d6 , I think the player quickly will be bored - if not ridiculous - to launch 10 dices per turn.

I can't prevent myself to laugh by imaginating a player who lauch 20 dices or over to calculate the degats of the super blast .

[baronspam]

Re: GM conundrum - CSLs

 

So I'm starting a Terran Empire campaign (heroic level), and one of my players just submitted a character who took 8 CSLs in Rifles. For a mere 24 points (a big investment, but not at all unreasonable given some people have 20 point psionic poewrs) he will now never ever miss with a rifle.

 

Obviously I can always just say no, but that sounds so artificial. What is ok, then, 4? 3? 6? And what do I tell him when he says "but I paid the points"? Are CSLs that undercosted?

 

Did you write up campagin guidelines before the players made their characters? Beause Hero is so flexable, it is really usefully, probably necessary, to set guidelines for the numbers for your campagin, as to what is expected as to a minimum, average, and maxium stat for various combat abillites. Pushing these numbers just leads to arms races. Higher OCVs just means the badguys need higher DCVs, which mean the players who are not participating in the arms race get left behind in terms of combat effectivness. If the player wants to be a crack shot, you should let him, but that means coming in at the top of the CV range, not beyond it. I think the advice about using PSL is excellent. It lets the character make that shot at exteem range, in the dark, in a rainstorm, etc, but still have a CV that doesn't make a to hit roll a moot point.

[ghost-angel]

Re: GM conundrum - CSLs

 

Thanks for the explanation.

 

Over 10d6 , I think the player quickly will be bored - if not ridiculous - to launch 10 dices per turn.

I can't prevent myself to laugh by imaginating a player who lauch 20 dices or over to calculate the degats of the super blast .

 

"standard Champions" starts at 12D. I've played in several campaigns that regularly tipped towards 14-16D6. And at least on campaign had 18D6 as the norm.

 

It all depends on the nature of the campaign.

[GAZZA]

Re: GM conundrum - CSLs

 

Legal but totally uninteresting.

80d6 for an Energy Blast ? Why not . But the Game Master should tell the player a so massive quantity energy needs too much time to be used in combat. I mean 1MN over 10d6. So 8MN for this deadly - and useless - power.

But it 'd be interesting to create an energy blast who attack several persons . A 12d6 EB will attack four men with 3d6 per target.

 

Well, see, that's a bait and switch. If you are allowed to buy 20pts worth of 2pt CSLs and use them as written, it isn't fair that you'd force limitations to my 80d6 Blast. My point is that no system, not even Hero, can possibly balance "a point is a point". 5 points worth of Power A can never be exactly the same as 5 points worth of Skill B or Characteristic C. That's why campaign guidelines for maximum CV, SPD, Active Points, defenses, and so on usually exist. Granted some GMs find those too restrictive, and loosen them accordingly, but a total free-for-all is the sort of thing that can only work when the players impose such restrictions on themselves.

[Outsider]

Re: GM conundrum - CSLs

 

Another thing to remember when comparing Rifle-Man to Mental-Man : At least in my experience, ECVs tend to be lower (sometimes by a lot) than DCVs. AND Ego Attacks generally take no range penalty.

 

The guy attacking DCV will need to have a higher OCV than the mentalist has ECV, and have some range levels to stay relevant. Just how much higher depends on the game, but if one goes by the sample characters in 6th Ed (see below), the heroic game differential is 1-3, while the super one is more like 3-4.

 

 

Examples from 6th edition :

Taurus (Supers) : ECV 4, DCV 8

Eagle-Eye (Supers) : ECV 4, DCV 8

Hardpoint (Supers) : ECV 5, DCV 8

Maelstrom (Supers) : ECV 4, DCV 8

Slash (Cyberpunk) : ECV 3, DCV 6

Darien (Fantasy) : ECV 3, DCV 5

Belakar (Fantasy) : ECV 5, DCV 5

Yueng Li (Ninja Hero) : ECV 3, DCV 6

The Verdict (Dark Champions) : ECV 3, DCV 5 (+2 with all combat. +1 with Ranged Combat)

Alena Drake (Dark Champions) : ECV 3, DCV 6 (+1 Overall Level)

Randall Irons (Pulp) : ECV 4, DCV 5

Jessica Fivedawns (SciFi) : ECV 4, DCV 5 (+1 Overall Level)

Black Bear (Animal) : ECV 2, DCV 5

Lion (Animal) : ECV 2, DCV 6

Horse (Animal) : ECV 2, DCV 4

Hur'shaas (SciFi) : ECV 3, DCV 5

 

 

Another thing to consider : if someone intends to be a skilled sniper, they really should be able to hit a man sized target at some distance. One sees a lot of '800 meter shots' in hollywood films, but I am not sure how accurate that is as an assessment of the skill needed. For the sake of argument, lets just say that a sniper needs to be able to hit a man sized target consistently at 400 yards. In HERO terms, that means they need to hit a 3 DCV with a -12 range mod, for an effective DCV of 15. To hit this consistently, the sniper needs a combined OCV of 18 (this gives him a 14- to hit, ~90% accuracy), deducting equipment and maneuver (set/brace) bonuses, he needs a combined OCV of 9*, or about 6 levels over base (up to 4 of these can be vs range only)

 

*This assumes that the bonuses listed for weapons and sights in 6ED are cumulative... that the +1 OCV, +2 vs RMod Sniper Rifle gets an additional +1/+2 from having a high powered scope, rather than its listed +1/+2 already including the scope.

[secretID]

Re: GM conundrum - CSLs

 

I won't reiterate the many good points here; I just had something re the artificiality of a cap.

 

IMO, a CSL cap is less arbitrary than, say, an OCV cap. I see it more like a skill roll cap or a characteristic cap. You rule that there's only so strong a human can be in your game, only so good one can be at Acrobatics or Shadowing, and only so expert one can be with a rifle, just like in reality.

[GAZZA]

Re: GM conundrum - CSLs

 

I won't reiterate the many good points here; I just had something re the artificiality of a cap.

 

IMO, a CSL cap is less arbitrary than, say, an OCV cap. I see it more like a skill roll cap or a characteristic cap. You rule that there's only so strong a human can be in your game, only so good one can be at Acrobatics or Shadowing, and only so expert one can be with a rifle, just like in reality.

Eh... I disagree. Reason from effect. If I have an effective OCV of 15, it doesn't matter whether I bought that as:

 

- +12 CSLs with rifles (36 points)

- +12 OCV (60 points)

- Some mix of the two.

 

In fact if you want to be specific, the CSLs are less problematic, since there will be cases where they don't apply. (Incidentally OCV is, of course, a characteristic, so saying that a CSL cap is less arbitrary than "... a skill roll cap or a characteristic cap ..." is technically self refuting).

[secretID]

Re: GM conundrum - CSLs

 

Eh... I disagree. Reason from effect.

But the question of whether it's arbitrary is all about whether it makes sfx sense. If you're playing a game of no superhumans, a STR limit isn't arbitrary.

 

That's my point. A limit applicable to a game mechanic - "effect" - is arbitrary, but a limit to STR, skills, etc. isn't necessarily so.

 

Incidentally OCV is' date=' of course, a characteristic, so saying that a CSL cap is less arbitrary than "... a skill roll cap or a characteristic cap ..." is technically self refuting.[/quote']

I think you know what I meant - total OCV, from base OCV, MAs, CSLs, etc.

[GAZZA]

Re: GM conundrum - CSLs

 

But the question of whether it's arbitrary is all about whether it makes sfx sense. If you're playing a game of no superhumans, a STR limit isn't arbitrary.

 

That's my point. A limit applicable to a game mechanic - "effect" - is arbitrary, but a limit to STR, skills, etc. isn't necessarily so.

Splitting a mighty fine hair I think.

 

Depends on what you mean by "arbitrary". It's not arbitrary in the dictionary sense - it has a justifiable reason, the reason is "we don't want situations where we are comparing massively disparate chances to hit, damage, etc". It's arbitrary in another sense - there's no obvious real world reason for it - but I'm not really sure that's something where we would necessarily say that arbitrary was bad.

 

I think you know what I meant - total OCV, from base OCV, MAs, CSLs, etc.

Yes, obviously, it was a correction rather than a dismissal.

 

For what it's worth, I think total CV limits should be more elastic. It's not really fair that OCV 10 man should be allowed while not letting OCV 4 man with 7 combat levels in Karate shouldn't be, in my opinion. But most GMs publish campaign guidelines, not hard and fast rules.

[Tasha]

Re: GM conundrum - CSLs

 

Another thing to consider : if someone intends to be a skilled sniper, they really should be able to hit a man sized target at some distance. One sees a lot of '800 meter shots' in hollywood films, but I am not sure how accurate that is as an assessment of the skill needed. For the sake of argument, lets just say that a sniper needs to be able to hit a man sized target consistently at 400 yards. In HERO terms, that means they need to hit a 3 DCV with a -12 range mod, for an effective DCV of 15. To hit this consistently, the sniper needs a combined OCV of 18 (this gives him a 14- to hit, ~90% accuracy), deducting equipment and maneuver (set/brace) bonuses, he needs a combined OCV of 9*, or about 6 levels over base (up to 4 of these can be vs range only)

 

*This assumes that the bonuses listed for weapons and sights in 6ED are cumulative... that the +1 OCV, +2 vs RMod Sniper Rifle gets an additional +1/+2 from having a high powered scope, rather than its listed +1/+2 already including the scope.

 

Don't forget that most snipers have been setting since the beginning of time or at least a turn. Also they are braced.

[GAZZA]

Re: GM conundrum - CSLs

 

Don't forget that most snipers have been setting since the beginning of time or at least a turn. Also they are braced.

 

Wow, that's kind of an extreme "Universe was created last Tuesday" thing.

[Outsider]

Re: GM conundrum - CSLs

 

Don't forget that most snipers have been setting since the beginning of time or at least a turn. Also they are braced.

 

I included set(+1 OCV) and brace (+2 vs Range) under 'maneuvers'. I wasn't aware that one could gain more than +1 OCV by setting for more than a full phase.

[secretID]

Re: GM conundrum - CSLs

 

Splitting a mighty fine hair I think.

 

Depends on what you mean by "arbitrary". It's not arbitrary in the dictionary sense - it has a justifiable reason, the reason is "we don't want situations where we are comparing massively disparate chances to hit, damage, etc". It's arbitrary in another sense - there's no obvious real world reason for it - but I'm not really sure that's something where we would necessarily say that arbitrary was bad.

For the OP's purposes, this is the relevant distinction. He was reluctant to institute something "artificial," which I took to mean "without in-game rational."