Inspiration from Renaissance Florence

[Michael Hopcroft]

Just finished watching the second episode of Medici: Godfathers of the Renaissance, and wondered how a city-state like Florence would work in a fantasy game. Especially with its conflict between religious and secular interests culminating in Savonarola and the infamous "Bonfire of the Vanities" where books, art and jewelry that could never be replaced were consigned to the flames as symbols of decadence and sin.

 

Most fantasy campaigns that are inspired by D&D assume that wizards (secular magicians) and clerics (divinely powered clergy) could work together in relative harmony. Is this necessarily so, or are the worldviews that allow these practices so dissonant as to lead to conflict?

[Escafarc]

Re: Inspiration from Renaissance Florence

 

In most games religion dosn't have as much power and control over the masses as it did/does in the real world. But it isn't really hard to do, you just have to set the ground rules for the campaign. It's also easier to do with fewer religions.

[Markdoc]

Re: Inspiration from Renaissance Florence

 

No, of course it's not necessarily so. It's entirely up to the GM.

 

In my game, different cultures run the gamut from "Non-temple magic is by definition the work of the devil and any such magic user must be hunted down and killed" to "Priest or mage, magic is magic. Priests just say that their magic is "divine". But how can you tell?" and pretty much every aspect in-between.

 

My current game's plot (the next session starts in about 15 minutes!) is driven largely by the conflict caused by two different priestly factions fighting over different styles of magic ... even though they worship (in theory) the same gods and use much the same spells. That conflict is spilling over into secular politics with the various lords lining up behind temple factions depending on their history, rivalry and inclinations.

 

cheers, Mark

[assault]

Re: Inspiration from Renaissance Florence

 

You could easily complicate matters by adding heresies to the mix.

 

Picture what the Reformation would have looked like if the Renaissance had led the Catholic Church to start to tolerating wizards...

 

Respectable upper class wizards, of course. Not old women with warts, peasants or upstart merchants. And particularly not Jewish, Islamic or pagan magicians.

 

Obviously there would be a tension between the hardcore, well, Protestants and the more pragmatic ones, who might be prepared to eventually tolerate something like the Royal Society.

[Clonus]

Re: Inspiration from Renaissance Florence

 

Just finished watching the second episode of Medici: Godfathers of the Renaissance, and wondered how a city-state like Florence would work in a fantasy game. Especially with its conflict between religious and secular interests culminating in Savonarola and the infamous "Bonfire of the Vanities" where books, art and jewelry that could never be replaced were consigned to the flames as symbols of decadence and sin.

 

Most fantasy campaigns that are inspired by D&D assume that wizards (secular magicians) and clerics (divinely powered clergy) could work together in relative harmony. Is this necessarily so, or are the worldviews that allow these practices so dissonant as to lead to conflict?

 

Obviously it isn't _necessarily_ so. But in a polytheistic context, the real life philosophers, engineers, and soothsayers who occupied the ecological niches occupied by magicians in fantasy worlds usually didn't bump heads with the priesthoods all that often. The priesthoods after all, were busy competing with each other for market share.

[assault]

Re: Inspiration from Renaissance Florence

 

More thoughts: (again assuming "realish" history - in a game you would probably use analogues.)

 

"Protestant" magicians would be right out too, of course, as far as the "Catholic" church is concerned.

 

The Inquisition would, of course take an interest in the activities of even tolerated wizards. In fact, a licensing system of sorts might emerge, where wizards would require regular investigations of their religious orthodoxy.

 

A wizard would need to be demonstratively and publicly Catholic, and remain on good terms with their local religious hierarchy and secular authorities. Grimoires and other texts they use would need to be authorised. Possession of unauthorised texts could get them into serious trouble.

 

It's quite conceivable that magical training could come under the auspices of the Universities, which, at that stage, were largely aimed at training priests and theologians, with their secular functions distinctly secondary. A licensed wizard could very well have some sort of formal qualification. They might even have taken some minor religious vows, of a kind that doesn't prevent them from engaging in secular life.

 

This would also give them the legal status of clergy.

 

Again, in an actual game, file off the serial numbers.

[Markdoc]

Re: Inspiration from Renaissance Florence

 

Obviously it isn't _necessarily_ so. But in a polytheistic context' date=' the real life philosophers, engineers, and soothsayers who occupied the ecological niches occupied by magicians in fantasy worlds usually didn't bump heads with the priesthoods all that often. The priesthoods after all, were busy competing with each other for market share.[/quote']

 

Actually philosophers and engineers butted heads with the church frequently, in real life. If they were priests themselves (as was often the case) they were exiled or imprisoned if they would not shut up. If they were secular they were harassed, dragged before the courts or occasionally murdered by enraged mobs, egged on by guys like Savonorola. Back then, there was no clear dividing line between engineering, philosophy, science and religion. Francis Bacon was hauled up in ecclesiastic court for promoting the scientific method - and sentenced to internal exile, forbidden visitors or books. Gallileo was hauled up by the inquisition and imprisoned for publishing his work on planetary orbits. Tycho Brahe faced prison for reporting the observation of a nova. Kepler lost his job as a mathematician over a religious argument and Benedetto was investigated by the inquisition for his heretical work on ... hydraulics. The Accademia del Cimento - a scientific academy whose primary purpose was the construction of better instruments for scientific observation - things like barometers and telescopes - was shut down under pressure from religious leaders.

 

There's plenty more, but you get the idea.

 

Just like evolution in the US today, those struggles were not actually about either religion, or science, but about power: who gets to pronounce on "the real world". Given that magic is per in a very real, raw form in most fantasy games, I personally cannot imagine it not being involved in political/religious debates

 

cheers, Mark

[Clonus]

Re: Inspiration from Renaissance Florence

 

Actually philosophers and engineers butted heads with the church frequently' date=' in real life. If they were priests themselves (as was often the case) they were exiled or imprisoned if they would not shut up. If they were secular they were harassed, dragged before the courts or occasionally murdered by enraged mobs, egged on by guys like Savonorola. k[/quote']

 

In a _polytheistic_ context.

[Lord Liaden]

Re: Inspiration from Renaissance Florence

 

OTOH there have been notable religious figures in history -- scholars, philosophers, and scientists -- who were highly respected by the Catholic hierarchy, and either in their day or after their deaths were popularly considered to be great Magi. The Franciscan friar Roger Bacon, and Saint Albertus Magnus, are notable among these. A magus might employ what's sometimes called "white magic," invoking the power of God and various angels. Much of Kabbalist mystic practice is based on that, which in turn influenced European occultism. Remember that King Solomon was mythologised as the greatest magician in history, wielding mighty powers bestowed directly by God (at least until that unfortunate Queen of Sheba business).

[Michael Hopcroft]

Re: Inspiration from Renaissance Florence

 

No, of course it's not necessarily so. It's entirely up to the GM.

 

In my game, different cultures run the gamut from "Non-temple magic is by definition the work of the devil and any such magic user must be hunted down and killed" to "Priest or mage, magic is magic. Priests just say that their magic is "divine". But how can you tell?" and pretty much every aspect in-between.

 

We seem to be assuming that, as in the period of the renaissance, we have a god(s) that does not intervene in the world blatantly. Religious people today generally believe that their deity does influence the world, but in more subtle ways than parting seas, throwing down mountains, or raising a leader from the dead. (Indeed, many monotheists believe that their deity is in direct control of everything that happens in the world including their own actions). If a god or gods was showing up every so often and smiting large quantities of their foes, it would influence the world-view of everybody who is aware of it.

[assault]

Re: Inspiration from Renaissance Florence

 

We seem to be assuming that' date=' as in the period of the renaissance, we have a god(s) that does not intervene in the world [i']blatantly[/i].

 

Which is pretty much required in a setting where there is moral ambiguity. Either that, or have a deity or deities with a moral code more oriented to order/chaos rather than good/evil. (A religion without a moral code at all kind of misses the point.)

 

If a god or gods was showing up every so often and smiting large quantities of their foes, it would influence the world-view of everybody who is aware of it.

 

Certainly. It would become sensible either to seek the protection of that/those beings, or, if they existed, others of similar power.

 

Even in a more-or-less monotheistic setup like this, there could be doctrinal disputes if the direct interventions were rare enough. The stakes would just be higher.

[Markdoc]

Re: Inspiration from Renaissance Florence

 

We seem to be assuming that' date=' as in the period of the renaissance, we have a god(s) that does not intervene in the world [i']blatantly[/i]. Religious people today generally believe that their deity does influence the world, but in more subtle ways than parting seas, throwing down mountains, or raising a leader from the dead. (Indeed, many monotheists believe that their deity is in direct control of everything that happens in the world including their own actions). If a god or gods was showing up every so often and smiting large quantities of their foes, it would influence the world-view of everybody who is aware of it.

 

Oh, nobody in my game world doubts that there are powerful beings of awesome might out there. As you note, there's too many direct examples in most of fantasy gaming. But people in one culture might point to a temple of one such being and say "God!" while others say "No. No, no, nooooo. That's a demon. THIS is a God!" and yet others say "They're both gods: you can have more than one, you know!" ... and some people say "How can you tell if it's a god or simply a really powerful magic-user? What defines a god anyway?"

 

So the average person in my game doesn't really "believe" in gods. They "know" gods (or God-like beings) exist. Likewise, temples place far less emphasis on faith - who needs faith when you can see miracles performed daily? - and more on service.

 

But as assault noted, that doesn't lower the political stakes - it raises them.

 

cheers, Mark

[pruttm]

Re: Inspiration from Renaissance Florence

 

The idea of gods working mainly through their servants can allow faith to stay very real in the world, while still allowing for powerful magic to flow from the fingertips of these servants.

 

It also works to allow godly magic to operate more invisibly through disasters instead of energy blasts. Not knowing for sure whether an event was god-driven helped to fan the fires of paranoia and faith. It also allowed people to seize power. In the end, it might not matter if magic is real or not in the world, just that the general populous thinks that it is.

 

The way I think I would play it, is that magic is real, but hard to generate and somewhat rare. That should allow both options above to work and still keep history relatively intact.

 

Pete

[Lord Liaden]

Re: Inspiration from Renaissance Florence

 

Religion in a fantasy setting where gods are present and active in the world is given significant coverage in Hero Games's Turakian Age setting book. At one point author Steve Long makes IMO an interesting suggestion: that while worship is a god's bread and butter, providing him with genuine sustenance, faith his like his wine. The quality of belief in spite of uncertainty or contradictory evidence is more pleasurable to a god than the spiritual equivalent of paying one's taxes because you're sure there'll be consequences if you don't. Hence the gods rarely interfere directly in human affairs, nor do they make pronouncements on many doctrinal matters, so their worshippers have to make leaps of faith, and sometimes get into significant religious disputes, even within the same denomination.

[Lord Liaden]

Re: Inspiration from Renaissance Florence

 

Continuing with Turakian Age references for a moment, one of the fictional states within that setting, the city-state of Kurum-Sathiri, is given an interesting social system which IMHO wasn't really developed to its full potential. The Sithians (as the people are known) are a true mageocracy, with rule by the most powerful mage (as determined by contests between them), and social status based on sorcerous knowledge and spell-casting ability. Yet Kurum-Sathiri is also home to the only true monotheism in this world, with a priesthood described as hierarchical, highly organized, and very influential. Although there's no mention of any conflict or tension between them, it seems to me that there would have to be, at least on occasion. Perhaps these two factions tend to balance each other, preventing either one from holding too much power.

[Markdoc]

Re: Inspiration from Renaissance Florence

 

Continuing with Turakian Age references for a moment' date=' one of the fictional states within that setting, the city-state of Kurum-Sathiri, is given an interesting social system which IMHO wasn't really developed to its full potential. The Sithians (as the people are known) are a true mageocracy, with rule by the most powerful mage (as determined by contests between them), and social status based on sorcerous knowledge and spell-casting ability. Yet Kurum-Sathiri is also home to the only true monotheism in this world, with a priesthood described as hierarchical, highly organized, and very influential. Although there's no mention of any conflict or tension between them, it seems to me that there would have to be, at least on occasion. Perhaps these two factions tend to balance each other, preventing either one from holding too much power.[/quote']

 

Or:

The entire religion is fake, and run by the most senior mages, allowing them to stop any competition from setting up shop in town. They've got the magical firepower to provide any "miracles" needed

 

Or:

The religion isn't fake, it's just that the temple is run by the most senior mages who also hold the top positions in the temple. There'd still be conflict but it'd be between the mages, just as it is for the top spot in town

 

Or:

The religion isn't fake but it emphasizes peaceful conduct and submission to authority. The Head priest spends more time meditating, talking to God and helping the poor than trying to fight with the secular rulers

 

Or:

Yeah, they fight like cats and dogs - just covertly, with various factions within the priesthood supporting candidates within the mageocracy, or joining to discretely topple those they see as threats to the temple.

 

Or:

There is that within the temple which may not be challenged ... and it gets irascible if not propitiated. The priests are busy with their rule and the mages are careful to sacrifice lavishly to the temple and the priests. It's said that That Within the Temple protects the Sithians and keeps other, possibly more bloodthirsty gods at bay.

 

All of those give at least the appearance of no conflict, and apart maybe from number 3, there's heaps of gaming potential in all of those options, and I'm pretty sure we could all come up with more

For me as a GM, religion is a never-ending source of gaming goodness.

 

cheers, Mark