Unbalanced Ships

[Wildcat]

Hello all,

I mainly play Champions, but I'm a HUGE Hero fan, and have picked up EVERYTHING Hero has put out for 5th so far (well except what ever just came out this last week :-)) Anyway A pal of mine, Thom is using Star Hero, and the supplements to design his own version of Battlestar Hero. In doing so we have been looking over the ships created for the SH genera to get a feel for how we should build the Vipers, Cylon Raiders and other ships.

What I found (and I can only speak for the STK, because Thom has my other books at this time) is that the Ships are very unbalanced, and I'm wondering why. I'll give examples.

Example 1:

Super-Dreadnought class Imperial Navy IAV Apocalypse (Pg 61 STK) lists it's DEF as 25 but also adds on a

"Outer Force Field: 25Pd/Ed Ablative",

"Hull Force Field: 15Ed/Ed",

"Ablative Armor Plating: +38 DEF" and

"Hull Armor: +20 DEF Hardened"

For a grand total DEF of 123 (If my math is correct)

It's most powerful Weapons Systems are as follows:

"Type 8 Plasma Cannons: 12d6 RKA AOE 1 Hex Accurate" [40c](I also realize that is has 50 Antimatter Missiles, but I don't have stats for those at this time)

The maximum Damage that this weapon can do is 72 Body; against another Super-Dreadnought this would be 100% ineffective until the shields dropped. (At 80END per phase, SPD 3 that's 240 END per Turn Just keeping shields up and another Aprox 80 END spent on LS, Sensors and Artificial Gravity, they aren’t going to run out of their 500END/500REC anytime soon) As it would be pointless to fire any lesser weapons that use End (Although they could fire enough to spend another 180END Oh and an additional 250END from the back ups if need be)

And even then with the shields are down their Hull DEF is 83, Still more than enough to handle the mightiest blast from the vaunted Type 8 Plasma Cannon (I'm assuming this is a powerful weapon as this Super-Dreadnought has 2 of them)

Was this ship meant to be unbeatable? Are there other ships out there that can hurt this ship, and if so... keep them far away from me.

Example 2: (Skipping all the way down to the 1 manned Fighters)

"Imperial Navy SBP Tempest Fighter" (pg 83 STK)

10 DEF 25 BODY

Main Weapon: "Mark XV Starship Laser"

Near Targeting Beam mode: 9d6 RKA AP (Average/Max Dam: 32/54 Body)

Near-Targeting Pulse mode: 7d6 RKA (AF5) (Average/Max Dam: 21/42 Body x1-5)

Now once again fighting a ship of similar stats, we have an unbalanced outcome. This ship is exactly the opposite of our previous example. It is destroyed in 1 shot, by an average roll.

Does this have a purpose? Are the fighters meant to have such devastating weapons while having almost NIL in DEF? Is this to simulate what we see in movies and TV? If so I’d hate to have been Luke Skywalker in one of these fighters, or the Rebels against a Stardestroyer made along the lines of what I’ve seen in STK. Can someone please tell me I’m missing something here. Or tell me that it was an oversight, or something.

 

WC

[Monolith]

Starting with the Super-Dreadnought, first off, remember that these are the toughest of the tough. You are talking Battlestar Galactica or Super Star Destroyer here. These are not pea shooters.

 

Now onto the weapons. The vehicle has the following:

2 plasma cannons: 12d6 RKA

2 plasma cannons: 11d6 RKA

4 plasma cannons: 7d6 RKA

2 Mark XX starship lasers: 10d6 AP RKA

4 Mark XII starhip Lasers: 8d6 AP RKA

8 Mark IV starship lasers: 5d6 RKA

50 Anitmatter Missiles: 25d6 RKA

 

Now remember how many of those defense are ablative?

Outer Force Field: 25Pd/Ed Ablative

Ablative Armor Plating: +38 DEF (only covers hull)

 

Each time one of those defenses are breached, they get a lower activation roll. A SD's first volley will have a 12d6 attack (42 Body), a 11d6 attack (38 body), a 7d6 attack (25 Body), and a 10d6 AP attack (35 body) at the minimum.

 

The 12d6 attack breaches the outer FF, and the hull FF, and the ablative DEF. The 10d6 AP attack does this as well. The other 2 attacks only breach the outer FF.

 

So on Phase 12 the outer FF is down to a 11- activation roll and the Ablative Plating is down to a 14-. There is a very good chance that the both will fail within 2 turns of combat. Once that happens you are down to:

Hull Force Field: 15Ed/Ed

Ship DEF: 25Pd/ED

Hull Armor: +20 DEF Hardened (and remember this only covers the hull).

 

It won't take long for a antimatter missile to blow the ship apart after that (88 body on average) against 60 DEF. It should take about 9 missiles to blow itself apart; less if the ship decided to use some of its other weapons as well.

 

Now as for the Tempest, it was designed to be an offensive threat. It's primary defensive ability is its maneuverability. That's why it has purchased extra DCV levels with Dodge. The purpose of the tempest is to not get hit, not suck up great amounts of damage. Also keep in mind that the Tempest is a four-man fighter, not a one man fighter.

[Wildcat]

Thanx Monolith

I knew I was missing something... Was unsure how the Layered effect of the Def would work. Still It seems as if it was a great deal of Def (at the outset) Vs the Firepower at hand (Esp since I didn't have the stats for the Missles) Now that you cleared up (what was right before my eyes) I see a battle between 2 of these mammoth vessels to be very exciting and drawn out. Althought I see the missles not beign that effective once you take into account the Missle Deflection systems (And with a +8 that's a hefty chance that the missles won't hit)

 

Now onto the Fighter... 4 man or 1 man makes no dif. 1 shot destroys it? I don't care what kinda def manuvers you have to be that susebtable to being destroyed in one, Granted it's DCV is Outstanding, but one Hit?? Not too Offensive if it can't get to it's target. 1 hit by an AOE weapon (Such as on the Apocalypse) is all it takes to end this "offensive threat". A 1 hit vehicle is just not conducive to Role playing... Movies or TV might be OK, but an RPG needs to better protect it's PCs

 

Overall you have done what I asked for... showed me how the big vehicles arn't unbalanced, but still not too sure how the fighters (at lease itn the STK) stack up.

 

Thanx

 

WC

[Monolith]

Originally posted by Wildcat

Althought I see the missles not beign that effective once you take into account the Missle Deflection systems (And with a +8 that's a hefty chance that the missles won't hit)

The anitmatter missiles have a MegaArea explosive effect, and thus cannot easily be deflected. But even after one ship lost its Ablative defenses it would still be a tactical battle. It won't be easy by any means. There are countermeasures, and counter-countermeasures, and both ships would be doing their best to win.

 

Now onto the Fighter... 4 man or 1 man makes no dif. 1 shot destroys it? I don't care what kinda def manuvers you have to be that susebtable to being destroyed in one, Granted it's DCV is Outstanding, but one Hit?? Not too Offensive if it can't get to it's target. 1 hit by an AOE weapon (Such as on the Apocalypse) is all it takes to end this "offensive threat". A 1 hit vehicle is just not conducive to Role playing... Movies or TV might be OK, but an RPG needs to better protect it's PCs

To a great extent I agree with you, but then I am also remembering all the space fighter combats I have seen in movies and television. It seems like fighters only took one hit in Star Wars before breaking up. The same in Battlestar Galactica. The same in Space: Above and Beyond. Now granted the "heroes" and main "villains" fighters always seemed to take more than one hit to destroy, but the standand NPCs and enemies always blow up with one hit. So from that standpoint having one-hit ships is not out of genre.

 

The two-man Wasp in Terran Empire is more like a standard "jet" fighter. It also has Outer and Hull Force Fields, as well as Ablative and Hull Armor. It can withstand a more vigorous battle. To stay in genre I would put my heroes in wasps and my NPCs in Tempests or Furys.

[Starwolf]

In addition, one hit kills of fighters is very realistic. Most aircraft can be blown out of the air with a single missile strike. It is a very lucky pilot indeed that can take a missile strike and still fly to safety, let alone continue the mission.

 

Note however that I am talking about missile strikes, a strafe by a gatling gun (or in the context of Star Hero maybe a laser bolt) may give a much higher probability of the target craft surviving and maintaining mission operability.

[Vanguard]

Originally posted by Monolith

To a great extent I agree with you, but then I am also remembering all the space fighter combats I have seen in movies and television. It seems like fighters only took one hit in Star Wars before breaking up. The same in Battlestar Galactica. The same in Space: Above and Beyond. Now granted the "heroes" and main "villains" fighters always seemed to take more than one hit to destroy, but the standand NPCs and enemies always blow up with one hit. So from that standpoint having one-hit ships is not out of genre.

 

Which is exactly why I've told my PC's that while I'm using the "Bigger is Better" rule for capital ships, they don't have to worry about being destroyed in 1 hit like the NPC's.

 

But that does bring up another question I have. Everything I've found that talks about space battles or such seems to be talking about huge spacecraft like the BattleStars and the StarDestroyers. Very little of it seems geared around or able to deal with 1-2 man fighter craft. (Or at least it seems that way to me). Secondly, how do you guys deal with the "multiple hexes" that a vehicle takes up? The Vipers I designed are, technically, 4 hexes long by 3 wide and it just doesn't seem right that 1 hit (only have 15 body) destroys the entire craft.

[mattingly]

It's not that the one hit destroys the entire craft, but that the one hit destroys a vital part of the craft (the crew area, exposing the crew to space; the engines, which then explode; the weapons systems, which then explode; etc.).

[Victim]

Originally posted by Vanguard

But that does bring up another question I have. Everything I've found that talks about space battles or such seems to be talking about huge spacecraft like the BattleStars and the StarDestroyers. Very little of it seems geared around or able to deal with 1-2 man fighter craft. (Or at least it seems that way to me). Secondly, how do you guys deal with the "multiple hexes" that a vehicle takes up? The Vipers I designed are, technically, 4 hexes long by 3 wide and it just doesn't seem right that 1 hit (only have 15 body) destroys the entire craft.

 

A Lear Jet is 2x8 hexes, and has 16 Body. An F-15 is 8x4 and has 19 Body. I can easily see those getting destroyed in one hit.

 

But maybe you should buy some extra Body. Future things should be tougher.

 

The dogfight rules in the core book ought to work much better for small vehicles like fighters than they would for battle cruisers. So maybe they felt big ships needed the most work.

[Beholder]

Originally posted by Vanguard

Which is exactly why I've told my PC's that while I'm using the "Bigger is Better" rule for capital ships, they don't have to worry about being destroyed in 1 hit like the NPC's.

 

But that does bring up another question I have. Everything I've found that talks about space battles or such seems to be talking about huge spacecraft like the BattleStars and the StarDestroyers. Very little of it seems geared around or able to deal with 1-2 man fighter craft. (Or at least it seems that way to me). Secondly, how do you guys deal with the "multiple hexes" that a vehicle takes up? The Vipers I designed are, technically, 4 hexes long by 3 wide and it just doesn't seem right that 1 hit (only have 15 body) destroys the entire craft.

 

In my case, I intend to use megascale flight and thus, megascale (1km) hexes. Should help things a bit and be more consitent with rules like starfleet battles ( which uses even bigger hexes )

 

Beholder