Multiform

[Martin2]

Re: Multiform

 

The Hulk is not a good example. In his true form he would be 1,000 points plus (see other threads).

 

If the other players were also 1,000 point characters having a MF that gave Banner a few hundred points and the rest into MF to get to 1,000 points would be a way of doing it.

 

But in that example Banner and the Hulk would in most campaigns increase in character points at the same rate and not all into the Hulk.

 

But I think you say your character was an example and not a plan for a real game.

 

No GM I know would allow one character to create a character with MF and allow all of the points to be spent into MF so one form gets to be 5 times as powerful as the rest of the group.

 

It all about game balance for the whole group. Unless the entire group has MF which means you all accelerate at the same rate.

 

In my game the MF's are weaker than the rest of the group (2 x 325 and a 400 instead of 3x 400) and have dramatically different skills and powers from each other. And each are progressing at the same speed.

[Christopher]

Re: Multiform

 

So you suggest I just ignore the whole "True form versus alternate Form" thing. Build the bear as the main form' date=' with the human form as the MF. Yep. This is what I was thinking too. It's basically a reversion to the old rules. i.e. the new rules have a hole in them.[/quote']

No, they don't.

It's just that you tried to do the right thing with the wrong tool. You told us what your way to do it was, when you should have asked: How would you build? I'm a programmer, that is a classical error you make when posting on programmer forums (frankly, HERO is not that different to a programmign language).

 

You said you wanted: a 20 + 40 Points Human with 200 pt Alternate Form

What you wanted: a 200 pt Hero with a 20 pt Human Alternate form. Also, saying the other form is what he get when K.O./Stunned is just "Unvoluntary Transformation" Complication (wich you can defined as costing nothing if you like, since it's flavor). Should with Limitations it should get the overall thing down to 2 Points. But depending on the setting, this may be to cheap for a way to hide her bear form.

[ghost-angel]

Re: Multiform

 

Here's what I'd do; I'd ask the GM what the point totals of the game are. If they are 200, I would build the Bear as the "true form" (the one that pays the points), call the girl the True Form (the one that's the changed from and not into), and forget the book.

 

If the GM says it's a 50 Point campaign, and he allows that I can even have Multiform, I spend 40 of those on my Alternate Bear Form.

 

(if the GM says you're playing a 20 Point Character, you can't even buy Multiform under 6E since you don't add onto that; if it's 5E and the GM says 20 + X Disads I hope he says at least +20 Disad Points so I can buy it, and allows it.)

 

You have to be able to pay for it first, so the point becomes moot as to which is Rules Level True Form (vs The Form That Changes From Girl into Bear) if you don't even have 40 Points to play with at the start. Assuming the GM is playing in a 200 Point Character Campaign, then the Bear becomes Rules Level Turn Form, it buys a small Multiform "Into a Girl" and that just becomes the stated "True Form".

 

No reason you can't do that at all.

[Rebar]

Re: Multiform

 

The Hulk is not a good example. In his true form he would be 1' date='000 points plus (see other threads).[/font']

Not in the original form, when he was first created. He was just another brick.

 

If you were in a 350pt game and wanted to build a Hulk, you would have no reason to build a Bruce Banner on less than 350pts.

 

No GM I know would allow one character to create a character with MF and allow all of the points to be spent into MF so one form gets to be 5 times as powerful as the rest of the group.

Fine, that still means that multiform, as written, has a hole in it, since it doesn't define this aspect of how it's supposed to be used (nor does it even make suggestions 'at GM's discretion').

 

So, at your discretion, how would you control it? Human form only gets 1pt into MF per 6 pts gained? That's essentially the same thing as saying 'all forms can only spend up to XP total'.

[Rebar]

Re: Multiform

 

Here's what I'd do; I'd ask the GM what the point totals of the game are. If they are 200' date=' I would build the Bear as the "true form" (the one that pays the points), call the girl the True Form* (the one that's the changed from and not into), and forget the book.

 

Yep. Essentially reverting to the older rules.

 

*I think you mistyped. I think you meant alternate here. Actually, reading on, I don't know what you meant. How about just use the terms 'True form' and 'Alternate Form'? Then there's no ambiguity.

[Christopher]

Re: Multiform

 

He meant what I said: The Girl is the "Form you Revert to, if you have to revert". So for most rules the Bear(who pays the points, who gets the XP) is the True Form. For Transforming back (and only this), the Girl is the true form.

And it's still no hole in the rules. Everything is there. When you don't have Limitations on it there is no reverting back. And the Limitations "Reverts back into true form" and "Reverts into 20 pt Girl Form" are not that different. You could just take vanilla 4pt MF for the bear and give him Involuntary Transformation (whenever K.O. or Stunned; to Little Girl Form) and it's done. No need to even think about Limitation Values.

[Rebar]

Re: Multiform

 

And it's still no hole in the rules. Everything is there.

Everything is not there. I have identified one thing that is not. There is no guidance about how many points the larger character can grow by. It is simply GM fiat - an arbitrary house rule, after-the-fact to limit it to 1-in-6.

[ghost-angel]

Re: Multiform

 

Yep. Essentially reverting to the older rules.

 

*I think you mistyped. I think you meant alternate here. Actually, reading on, I don't know what you meant. How about just use the terms 'True form' and 'Alternate Form'? Then there's no ambiguity.

 

I did not mistype.

 

Here's what I meant, as further clarification due to repetitive terminology:

True Form - the copy of the Character Sheet that pays for the Multipower, what the book calls True Form

Base Form - the character's actual true form, what they are "normally" not what they change into conceptually.

 

I absolutely DO NOT mean reverting to the older rules.

 

I mean, whichever point total matches the point total the GM has given for the game pays for the Multipower. That is the "true form" but whichever form is the conceptual true/real/base form of the character is the one you call "the true form"

 

If my concept is "A 14 year old girl who changes into a giant polar bear" & the GM has said "we are playing a 200 point campaign" and I know my Polar Bear will be 200 points and my 14 Year old girl will be 27 points - then the Bear buys the Multiform but the girl is the true form, not True Form (note; capitalization is important in that sentence, True Form = Mechanical Rule, true form = conceptual idea) - because the Bear matches the campaign points, but the girl matches my concept.

[Rebar]

Re: Multiform

 

I did not mistype.

 

Here's what I meant, as further clarification due to repetitive terminology:

True Form - the copy of the Character Sheet that pays for the Multipower, what the book calls True Form

Base Form - the character's actual true form, what they are "normally" not what they change into conceptually.

 

I absolutely DO NOT mean reverting to the older rules.

 

I mean, whichever point total matches the point total the GM has given for the game pays for the Multipower. That is the "true form" but whichever form is the conceptual true/real/base form of the character is the one you call "the true form"

 

If my concept is "A 14 year old girl who changes into a giant polar bear" & the GM has said "we are playing a 200 point campaign" and I know my Polar Bear will be 200 points and my 14 Year old girl will be 27 points - then the Bear buys the Multiform but the girl is the true form, not True Form (note; capitalization is important in that sentence, True Form = Mechanical Rule, true form = conceptual idea) - because the Bear matches the campaign points, but the girl matches my concept.

 

Sigh. Why would you use the same term twice? OK, I'll have to take some time later to decipher what you're trying to say...

[ghost-angel]

Re: Multiform

 

Here's the deal - the question is not "who pays for Multiform, the one with more points or the one with less points?" the question is "How many points did my GM give me?"

 

I'm sorry I ended up using the same term twice, I believe the book made a mistake using the term "True Form" in any fashion. It should have used-

Base Form: Form that pays for Multiform

True Form: The characters true form

Alternate Form(s): Anything that isn't the True Form.

 

9 of 10 times the Base and True forms are the same thing. But every once in a while you want a True Form that isn't the character sheet with "Multiform" written on it.

[Hugh Neilson]

Re: Multiform

 

Yes. The idea was that the human form is just a person.

 

The way MF is designed, there's no reason that the true form would ever be less than the campaign max. i.e. true form is always at least as powerful as any alternate form.

 

Character concept is the reason.

 

And what's to stop the human from dropping all 25XP into MF?

 

The same thing that stops someone else starting with a 15d6 Blast and dropping all 25xp there to make it a 20d6 Blast - the GM applying judgement to maintain game balance, and saying "NO".

 

Now the bear form is 200+(5*25) = 325.

It still comes down to either:

- alternate forms cannot grow more than 5pts per 6XP earned by true form (i.e. each time true form get to put 1XP into Multiform)

or

- alternate forms cannot grow faster than XP gained

 

What is a reasonable result? To me, a reasonable result is that the Bear has the same character points everyone else in the group has. That is what I would enforce as GM - that is a precondition of the Multiform character being allowed in the game at all.

 

Let's take another tack. What if, instead of building the Bear as a Multiform, it is built as OIAID? The character needs a half phase to change, and suffers all the same issues you cite that will prevent staying in bear form at all times. We now have a 20 point character, who can have another 225 points added on in Bear form (225/1.25 = 180 real points) and be able to use all the abilities purchased with the other 20 points. That doesn't seem to be an issue in many games. Every 4 xp gained can enhance the Bear Form by 5 points under this model.

[Rebar]

Re: Multiform

 

Character concept is the reason.

 

The same thing that stops someone else starting with a 15d6 Blast and dropping all 25xp there to make it a 20d6 Blast - the GM applying judgement to maintain game balance, and saying "NO".

 

Not the same thing. Conception aside, the player would still pay for or not pay for that extra 5D6.

 

The analogy to my MF here would be spending 100CP on an EB, then listing it (and using it) as only a 15D6EB, and simply discarding those 25 points.

[Rebar]

Re: Multiform

 

Let's take another tack. What if, instead of building the Bear as a Multiform, it is built as OIAID? The character needs a half phase to change, and suffers all the same issues you cite that will prevent staying in bear form at all times. We now have a 20 point character, who can have another 225 points added on in Bear form (225/1.25 = 180 real points) and be able to use all the abilities purchased with the other 20 points. That doesn't seem to be an issue in many games. Every 4 xp gained can enhance the Bear Form by 5 points under this model.

 

Agreed. Except that the critical difference between OHID and Multiform is when the two forms are so radically different that they would be better written as separate, balanced characters.

[Rebar]

Re: Multiform

 

Here's the deal - the question is not "who pays for Multiform, the one with more points or the one with less points?" the question is "How many points did my GM give me?"

 

I'm sorry I ended up using the same term twice, I believe the book made a mistake using the term "True Form" in any fashion. It should have used-

Base Form: Form that pays for Multiform

True Form: The characters true form

Alternate Form(s): Anything that isn't the True Form.

 

9 of 10 times the Base and True forms are the same thing. But every once in a while you want a True Form that isn't the character sheet with "Multiform" written on it.

 

I think this is the way to do it. The rules seems to indicate that True From has some conceptual meaning. At the very least, it's the one that you default to.

 

Seems to me should I just ignore it. Make the bear pay for the MF.

 

Unless I go with OHID. 'course, only problem with OHID is that I'd STILL end up writing up two clean character sheets for the player to follow so she does not get confused.

[Rebar]

Re: Multiform

 

Oh argh. I am such a dummy.

 

I can't have the bear form pay only 4CP for multiform to buy the 20pt human form. MF must pay for the most expensive form, regardless of who is paying it.

[ghost-angel]

Re: Multiform

 

Oh argh. I am such a dummy.

 

I can't have the bear form pay only 4CP for multiform to buy the 20pt human form. MF must pay for the most expensive form, regardless of who is paying it.

 

Er, sort of. It does not say that the most expensive character must pay for the Multiform - the book gives a specific example of a Character buying a Multiform with more points than the Character is built on.

 

The Multiform must be costed at the most expensive Alternate Form.

[Rebar]

Re: Multiform

 

Er' date=' sort of. It does not say that the most expensive character must pay for the Multiform[/quote']

Nor did I suggest otherwise.

 

Read it again. I'm saying that, regardless of who pays for it, the cost for multiform is going to be for the most expensive form. (i.e. in a 200pt game, I must pay 40pts for a 200pt character, I cannot merely pay 5pts for a 20pt character).

 

I've corrected your statement:

The Multiform must be costed at the most expensive of all of the Forms.

[ghost-angel]

Re: Multiform

 

Sigh.

 

Wrong.

 

If I have a character who can change into a 20 Point Bird, I only pay 5 Points for that. Even if I'm a 700 Point Character. Even if I'm a 10,000 Point Character. If my most expensive Form in the Multiform is a 20 Point Sparrow, I pay 5 points.

 

the Base/True Character - the one that is Buying Multiform - does not count. So, of All the Alternate Forms Not The True Form.

[Rebar]

Re: Multiform

 

Sigh.

 

Wrong.

If you're going to be patronizing, you'd better make sure you're right.

 

The rules say the cost of MF is "1CP for every 5 points in the most expensive form." If "the most expensive form" is the true form, then that'll be what the cost is based on. It does not say anything about that "only alternate forms".

 

I'll grant that there may be room for ambiguity there, but I think the ambiguity falls in my favour: literally "most expensive form" includes all forms, unless noted otherwise.

 

 

the Base/True Character - the one that is Buying Multiform - does not count. So, of All the Alternate Forms Not The True Form.

Please quote the book on this. I did.

[Hyper-Man]

Re: Multiform

 

From the FAQ

http://www.herogames.com/rulesFAQ.htm?ruleset=&section=&keywords=multiform&dateString=

Does the cost of Multiform change based on, or influence, the cost of the true form or alternate forms?

 

No. A character’s true form can have more points than his alternate forms, or his alternate forms can have more points than his true form (before or after accounting for the points the true form pays for Multiform). As always, the GM should monitor the situation to prevent abuse.

 

Similarly, the true form’s cost has no effect on the cost of Multiform. It cannot count as the character’s “most expensive form” — what matters is the cost of the most expensive alternate form.

[Rebar]

Re: Multiform

 

From the FAQ

http://www.herogames.com/rulesFAQ.htm?ruleset=&section=&keywords=multiform&dateString=

 

Thank you for the link Hyper-man. That clears up the ambiguity.

 

If ghost-angel had done so, he wouldn't have gotten the frosty from me for being patronizing...

[ghost-angel]

Re: Multiform

 

Obviously, because I incorrectly thought that would be the blindingly obvious conclusion. My bad.

[Hyper-Man]

Re: Multiform

 

Thank you for the link Hyper-man. That clears up the ambiguity.

 

If ghost-angel had done so, he wouldn't have gotten the frosty from me for being patronizing...

 

Well, next to Steve Long, ghost angel is probably one of the top experts on HERO rules who regularly participates on the boards.

I tend to assume he's right unless I can prove him wrong.

[sobran]

Re: Multiform

 

Rebar, I think I know where your dissonance is coming from. I was three pages into this thread before I caught it. There is some confusion, due to the way the book is worded, as to what "most expensive form" means.

 

From a character concept point of view, the little girl and the bear are both forms. This isn't entirely the case, mechanically. Okay, that didn't make sense. I will illustrate with a somewhat more traditional use of Multiform.

 

Let's say I create a character named Nature Man. Nature Man is in a 200 point campaign and is built in 200 points. He has a few powers in his True Form--that of Nature Man. He can talk to animals, he has an Energy Blast bought as a pistol or some nonsense, and so on. Finally he has purchased Multi-Form. Nature Man can assume the following forms, in addition to that of Nature Man:

 

* A Sparrow built on 20 points

* A Raptor built on 180 points

* A Giant Snake built on 125 points

 

When figuring the cost of Multi-Form, it is costed based on the most expensive form--that of the Raptor. Note that Nature Man is built on 200 points, but it is not what is being referenced. Nature Man is not one of the Multi-Form's "forms", though conceptually, it is. Nature Man has the Multi-Form power, which allows him to turn into these three animals. He does not have to pay points for his own 200 points, nor does it figure into the cost of Multi-Form in any other way. The rule, to my understanding, has nothing to do with which form must purchase Multi-Form, but instead how you figure the cost for all of the Alternate Forms.

 

EDIT: To clarify, I believe it is the fact that the concept you outlined had only one form that confused the issue for you. The rules almost assume that you have more than one form when talking about costing, which muddles the issue.

 

EDIT2: Oops. I should have finished reading the thread. Disregard my presumptuous and pointless post.

[Rebar]

Re: Multiform

 

Obviously' date=' because I incorrectly thought that would be the blindingly obvious conclusion. My bad.[/quote']

It's not blindingly obvious. In fact, the best assumption is the way I'd was picturing it.

 

The original way multiform was built is that there is no distinction betweeen any forms - multiform simply had to cover the most expensive form. There is no reason to think that has changed in subsequent editions unless it is stated so.

 

Also, if it were blindingly obvious it wouldn't be a frequently asked question now would it?

 

 

Well, next to Steve Long, ghost angel is probably one of the top experts on HERO rules who regularly participates on the boards.

I tend to assume he's right unless I can prove him wrong.

Well then he, like me, was around during the early rules editions, and knows why I built it the way it's always been built, until told otherwise.