Multiform

[Hugh Neilson]

Re: Multiform

 

It's not blindingly obvious. In fact' date=' the best assumption is the way I'd was picturing it.[/quote']

 

I agree with your first statement, but not your second statement. But that is without re-reading the rules. I know I never thought the "true form" points had any relevance.

 

The original way multiform was built is that there is no distinction betweeen any forms - multiform simply had to cover the most expensive form. There is no reason to think that has changed in subsequent editions unless it is stated so.

 

There is also no reason to think that has not changed in subsequent editions unless it is stated so. New editions keep some things the same and change others.

 

Also' date=' if it were blindingly obvious it wouldn't be a [u']frequently asked question[/u] now would it?

 

Steve tends to move most questions into FAQ to minimize rule questions, so perhaps a better title would be "Questions Asked At Least Once", but QAALA isn't an acronym people tend to be familiar with. Most of the 5e answers made it into the 6e rulebook - I wonder if this one did.

 

Well then he' date=' like me, was around during the early rules editions, and knows why I built it the way it's always been built, until told otherwise.[/quote']

 

Funny how such an absolute expert with unshakeable confidence in the rules has spent four pages trying to get a handle on how these rules work, isn't it?

 

My simplistic answer is that you seem to have a pretty solid view of how YOU think this multiform should work. So why spend time trying to find out the "official" rule when it seems clear that you like your way regardless. If it were me, I would impose your rule on your game and move on.

[Christopher]

Re: Multiform

 

So the solution looks like this:

200-pt Polar Bear Form (the sheet)

with amongst other powers:

Multiform: Small Human Girl (20pt), 4 AP, Reverts(Into Small Girl Form -1) = 2 Real Cost.

 

In 6E the Value of "Reverts" does not depend on that you revert to your True Form. It depends on one thing: If you revert to a weaker form. 400pt chapion that Reverts to his 400 pt True Form (even if it has paid the 80 CP for the Alternate Form): -0.

200 pt Polar Bear that Reverts to a 20 pt Little girl (no matter if it is in the rules of Multiform the "True Form" or an "Alternate Form"): definitely -1, mabe even -2.

[Rebar]

Re: Multiform

 

I agree with your first statement' date=' but not your second statement. But that is without re-reading the rules. I know I never thought the "true form" points had any relevance.[/quote']

The new rules don't actually retract the rules set out in the old rules. "Most expensive form" means "most expensive form", until they say "oh, but not including this form."

 

 

There is also no reason to think that has not changed in subsequent editions unless it is stated so. New editions keep some things the same and change others.

I don't think you meant to say this. Or you didn't think it through. You're saying that the rules could change without the rules saying so? I know my characters are telephathic - but I'm not!

 

 

My simplistic answer is that you seem to have a pretty solid view of how YOU think this multiform should work. So why spend time trying to find out the "official" rule when it seems clear that you like your way regardless. If it were me, I would impose your rule on your game and move on.

I stated pretty early that I don't want to just rule by GM fiat. I want to understand how it's intended to work. And that that intended way does actually work.

[Christopher]

Re: Multiform

 

I stated pretty early that I don't want to just rule by GM fiat. I want to understand how it's intended to work. And that that intended way does actually work.

The problem is mostly how the "buying Multiform" is written in 6E. Let's try to go through it with you concept in mind:

You want two forms:

20-pt Little Girl

200-pt Intelligent Polar Bear

 

There are highly different in abilites, points and complications so a Multiform is the right way to do it. Now the question is, what you want the True Form to be? And that is not about who transforms into who, but what does the player want to play.

Does he(or she) want to play as the Little Girl with no skills or relevant stats most the time?

Or as the Mighty Polar Bear, that is build on the campaing Limit?

 

I think all the relevant abilites/powers that define her role in the group are in the Bear Form, so that should be the true form for buying Multipower. So we got:

20-pt Little Girl (Alternate Form)

200-pt Intelligent Polar Bear (True Form)

 

Since there is only one Alternate Form, the cost Form Multipower is 20/5 = 4 Points (4 AP) and the True Form (Bear) Pays for it and writes it down on his sheet. Both forms a now build as completely different characters. If they share anything other than memory that costs points (Skills, Powers, a Horse) each of them has to pay for it seperately. Neither form has access to any of the resources, skills or stats of the other form for free.

 

Here we stand:

20-pt Little Girl (Alternate Form)

200-pt Intelligent Polar Bear (True Form), with 4-pt Multiform

 

But you still want the automatic transform to the little girl, of the bear is stunned or K.O. Let's take a little Look at Reversion:

It Basically says "Transforms into True Form when Stunned or K.O. Value Depends on relative Power of Alternate Form(s) and True Form". The word choice here is bad, I think: While 90% percent who buy reversion, may buy it as "Alternate Form to True Form", this is not really the point of this.

It's "Switch Form on Stun or K.O." with the value depending on the relative Strenghts of the Forms. I think transforming from a battle ready polar bear into a little girl, that has no Body, Stun, Rec, SPD or skills to speak of is a really big disadvantage.

There is still some use when the transform is volluntarily (as a disguise, when being small is helpfull), but for most parts all she can do is walk around with the group and talk, but she will hardly have any relevant knowledge to speak of, has no interaction skills on usefull levels, etc...

She get no powers the bear doesn't have (like flying, nightvision or the like), as most 20-pt Birds would do.

 

So overall, I think a -1 or -2 Limitation fit's it, since it's in all reagards a switch to a lesser form. Ausming we take the -2, we end up with:

20-pt Little Girl (Alternate Form)

200-pt Intelligent Polar Bear (True Form), with 4 AP Multiform, -2 Limitation (se above), 1 Point Real Cost.

[ghost-angel]

Re: Multiform

 

Wow. Even under the old 'most expensive forms must pay for it' versions before 5th I never assumed the character form actually paying the points to be counted as one of the forms. If my highest point form in th Multiform was a 20 point squirrel, it was a 20 point multiform, not a 350 point one if my Superhero was that many. I've never seen anything in any edition that counted the points of the character sheet paying for Multiform.

 

The intent is to pay points for the highest point total of the Character Sheets inside the Multiform. Always has been.

[Rebar]

Re: Multiform

 

The problem is mostly how the "buying Multiform" is written in 6E.

5E, please.

[Rebar]

Re: Multiform

 

Wow. Even under the old 'most expensive forms must pay for it' versions before 5th I never assumed the character form actually paying the points to be counted as one of the forms.

 

Why not? Surely if it was intended not to be included they would not have used the same word 'form'. Or would have at least qualified it and excluded it.

[Christopher]

Re: Multiform

 

When in doubt, "WwSLd (What would Steve Long do?)"

 

Also, since we use different version. Can anyboy give me the differences between my laydown and what the 5E rulebook says?

The important passage from 6E about the cost is: "The cost for Multiform, which only the true form pays for, is 1 Character Point for every 5 Character Points the most expensive alternate form is built with (i.e., his Total Points; Matching Complications don’t reduce the alternate form’s cost)." If the descriptions are otherwise identicall, I'd say it was just a misspelling that got corrected.

[Christopher]

Re: Multiform

 

Also, one more thing: Has 5E Multiform extra rules for Foci?

Because if your idea is true, how much would a Multiform bought as focus cost?

You don't know if a 25 pt child or a 400-pt Superhuman picks up your 100 pt Dog-Form-Amulett.

And should the mighty Hero not be able to transform into a lesser being for the same cost a small child does it?

[Rebar]

Re: Multiform

 

When in doubt' date=' "WwSLd (What would Steve Long do?)"

Actually, this is the philosphy I tend to follow.

 

How many times have I read things to the effect of

"If there are two ways of doing something in HG, an expensive one and a cheap one, the more expensive one is probably the right one."

"If it seems like you're getting something for free, you're probably doing it wrong."

[ghost-angel]

Re: Multiform

 

Why not? Surely if it was intended not to be included they would not have used the same word 'form'. Or would have at least qualified it and excluded it.

 

you're the only person I've ever met who's thought that. Don't know what to say. For me, it was obvious. For everyone I've ever played with, it was obvious. For everyone I've ever talked to, it was obvious. Until now. Got nothin' for ya. You know the rule now. Go forth and game. Enjoy.

[Christopher]

Re: Multiform

 

"If there are two ways of doing something in HG, an expensive one and a cheap one, the more expensive one is probably the right one."

"If it seems like you're getting something for free, you're probably doing it wrong."

What other way is there to make a different form/second sheet?

And what do you get "for free" here? You pay for every single Point of the Alternate Form.

 

Why should Captain Universe (1000 points) pay 200 Points for a single 20 pt "Genuine Sparrow" Form, when Little girl (20 pt) could have the same ability for 4 points?

You don't let him pay 50 times the Points for 4 Point STR, PD/ED or anything else.

Multiform is just a power of the True Form like any other: You have a specified effect (x-Forms Build on y-Maximum Points each) and that's it.

 

I am very conservative about the rules and the balancing (as a dozen disputes in the forum show clearly) and when I want too convince you that there is no inbalance in having a 200 pt bear taking a 20 pt Little girl Form for 4 Points, than you can believe me there isn't a single one. It's just a plain typo/misspelling.

 

I think the best I can do is to ask Steve about it, right now.

 

Edit: Done

[Rebar]

Re: Multiform

 

I am very conservative about the rules and the balancing (as a dozen disputes in the forum show clearly) and when I want too convince you that there is no inbalance in having a 200 pt bear taking a 20 pt Little girl Form for 4 Points, than you can believe me there isn't a single one.

 

Wow. Modest much?

[dmjalund]

Re: Multiform

 

IMO there are only two ways theat

 

"If there are two ways of doing something in HG, an expensive one and a cheap one, the more expensive one is probably the right one."

 

apply

 

1) Advantages and Limitations i.e. the power version with the fewest Advantages and Limitations is probably the best one.

 

2) Stop Sign Powers: If you are replacing a regular power with a much cheaper Stop-Sign power, you are probably cheating

[ghost-angel]

Re: Multiform

 

Just to kill this once and for all;

 

5ER p211 "Buying And Building Alternate Forms"

-para 1; "In other words, the True Form does not have to be the most expensive of the character's forms, and the relationship of the costs of the forms does not affect Multiform's cost."

-para 2; "The cost for Multiform, which on the true form pays for, is 1 character point for every 5 Character Points the most expensive Alternate form is built with (including points from Disadvantages)."

 

5E p137

-para 2; "The cost for Multiform, which on the true form pays for, is 1 character point for every 5 Character Points the most expensive form is built with (including points from Disadvantages)."

-Sidebar; "Vari-Armor"; build is for 300 point forms, Standard Superhero in 5E is 350 Points, inference tells us that you pay for the 300 Points regardless of Character's True Form Point Totals.

5E p138

-para 2; "A character's forms are built on the same Base Points as the true form (or fewer points, if the player so desires).

 

No one I know has interpreted Multiform the way you have; possibly for several reasons:

in 4E you could not buy a Multiform whose alternate forms were more than your true forms Character Points.

in 5E it obviously gives an example of a 150 point character buying a 300 point alternate form (were-wolf); and infers an example of Superhero Power Armor that is less points than a standard 350 Point Superheroic Character. The first example completely nulls the 4E Multiform without question.

 

5ER has been out since 2004, that FAQ question came up so early on in 5E's existence I may simply have trouble imagining anyone interpreting 5E's Multiform any differently. Sorry.

Also, 5E, 5ER, and 6E all nicely, clearly, and easily spell out how XP is spent on Multiform.

 

So there you have it.

 

Edit: if you want to know which is Steve's intended interpretation: 5ER absolutely. That he had to add a FAQ to spell out absolutely what is fairly clear intent on the topic. . . . well. yeah.

[bigbywolfe]

Re: Multiform

 

What other way is there to make a different form/second sheet?

And what do you get "for free" here? You pay for every single Point of the Alternate Form.

 

Why should Captain Universe (1000 points) pay 200 Points for a single 20 pt "Genuine Sparrow" Form, when Little girl (20 pt) could have the same ability for 4 points?

You don't let him pay 50 times the Points for 4 Point STR, PD/ED or anything else.

Multiform is just a power of the True Form like any other: You have a specified effect (x-Forms Build on y-Maximum Points each) and that's it.

 

I am very conservative about the rules and the balancing (as a dozen disputes in the forum show clearly) and when I want too convince you that there is no inbalance in having a 200 pt bear taking a 20 pt Little girl Form for 4 Points, than you can believe me there isn't a single one. It's just a plain typo/misspelling.

 

I think the best I can do is to ask Steve about it, right now.

 

Edit: Done

 

There was no typo. The question was answered, in detail, with the FAQ before you posted this. Secondly, Steve doesn't answer 5E or earlier questions anymore. It says so right it the rules for posting to the question thread.

[Christopher]

Re: Multiform

 

And just one more from the one who wrote the rules himself:

A 20-point sparrow Multiform costs 4 Character Points (20/5). The overall Total Cost of the character buying the Multiform isn't a factor; what matters is the cost of the alternate form being bought.

So, the rules clearly state it.

 

Of course you could still override the rules if you are the GM, but frankly I can't think of any reason why a 20-pt child should be more worth than a 20-pt sparrow (wich is very small and can fly).

[Rebar]

Re: Multiform

 

Just to kill this once and for all;

 

Thank you for clearing it up.

 

(I take some weird solace in seeing that it took 4 pages to do so. Many people had opinions, true, but "You can trust me! Really!" is not exactly a compelling argument.)

[Rebar]

Re: Multiform

 

OK, so I'm rebuilding it with the normal human form having the multiform.

Multiform (200 Character Points in the most expensive form) (40 Active Points);

Reversion (-1),

Personality Loss First Roll After 1 Hour (-1),

4 Charges (-1),

Costs Endurance (Only To Change; -1/2)

Disad: Multiform Amnesia (maybe, haven't decided on this yet)

 

So, in the first adventure, true form has earned 4XP. If she puts 1XP into multiform, that is enough to jump the bear form to 218 points!

 

It seems to me, I still have to invoke a GM fiat that says bear form increases only at the same rate as XP earned.

[Christopher]

Re: Multiform

 

So' date=' in the first adventure, true form has earned 4XP. If she puts 1XP into multiform, that is enough to jump the bear form to 218 points![/quote']

I don't know if it is true for 5E, but in 6E Cots Endurance makes the power Continous, thus she would already revert when she gets stunned/k.o (since the power ends then). And charges remove the endurance cost. No Idea if this is true for 5E too.

 

Be certain not to over-limit it. When it is true that she still only has 20 points beyond the multiform, playing such a character could be frustrating. Especially with charges, Revert and Personality Loss her hero form.

[Rebar]

Re: Multiform

 

Also, I guess there's no incentive to give the 20pt human form any disads. In a 150+50 campaign, she's got 150pts to spend before she needs to worry about disads.

 

Also, there's no reason not to spend those 150. They're totally free. I'm going to have a 150pt 15 year old girl... And since she does have about 25pts in roleplaying disads, she might as well be a 175pt 15yo girl.

[Rebar]

Re: Multiform

 

I don't know if it is true for 5E' date=' but in 6E Cots Endurance makes the power Continous, thus she would already revert when she gets stunned/k.o (since the power ends then). And charges remove the endurance cost. No Idea if this is true for 5E too.[/quote']

These are all explicitly listed in the book unde multiform.

 

Be certain not to over-limit it. When it is true that she still only has 20 points beyond the multiform, playing such a character could be frustrating. Especially with charges, Revert and Personality Loss her hero form.

Yes, actually, I've realized there's little incentive beyond roleplayability to add any limits on the multiform. The human form has way more points than she has any need for.

[Rebar]

Re: Multiform

 

Dear player: if you are interested in making the best of your character, you have about 100 more points you can spend freely on your human form. I know it doesn't fit your character conception, but the alternative is that, if you are more interested in roleplaying, those 100 poiints should be discarded now and forever. Your call.

 

Maybe this character would be better built as OHID...

[Christopher]

Re: Multiform

 

Now and forever might not be fair, since the player knows as much about playing the game as you do. Depending on how conversations work (role play, roll-play or a mix) she might want to spend a little bit more on the skills and doesn't know it yet. It depends on so many factors, that you can't know in advance.

Give her perhaps a few adventures to think about it first, before she has to make the dicission.

[Rebar]

Re: Multiform

 

Actually, I'm trying rewriting the character as OHID. It's working pretty well. The human form has little in the way of cha or powers so it's pretty eay to build on. And the point cost works out similarly. (But I've got to invent a limitation: NOT in Heroic ID -1/4 for INT and skills.)