What does routine skill check, easy skill check & difficult skill check mean to you ?

[NuSoardGraphite]

Re: What does routine skill check, easy skill check & difficult skill check mean to y

 

Hi Everyone,

 

I have been pondering this for a little while and I have come to you all to get some expert advice.

 

In the hero system we have routine skill check modifiers and additional modifiers which as a GM we can apply accordingly.

 

My question is how in a game setting can we describe the situation where a routine skill modifier would be needed, or a easy skill modifier or even a difficult skill modifier would be needed to determine success when a roll of the dice is made.

 

Any input on this question would be greatly appreciated.

 

 

Thanks in advance.

 

I use a slightly more detailed chart than what official HERO published material uses. It is based on the difficulty ratings in ROLEMASTER, which is where HERO got some of it's ratings from back when I.C.E. published HERO products.

 

RATING/Bonus

Routine/+5

Incredibly Easy/+4

Very Easy/+3

Easy/+2

Light/+1

Medium/+0

Moderate/-1

Tough/-2

Difficult/-3

Very Difficult/-4

Extremely Difficult/-5

Sheer Folly/-6

Absurd/-7

Herculean/-8

Virtually Impossible/-10 (or more)

 

When it comes time in play to describe the difficulty or lack thereof for the task at hand, the simple descriptive provided may be enough, depending on the situation and the level of detail your players prefer to be immersed in.

[Christopher]

Re: What does routine skill check, easy skill check & difficult skill check mean to y

 

91 years - not a huge difference in years. Ignore all before 1965 if you want (or some other arbitrary date' date=' if you prefer). There are still lots of scandals - among those who appear to know how well modern publicity works, and how their indiscretions will be viewed if discovered.[/quote']

Casanova himself had more Scandals in an average Town than are on that list.

 

And how can you use a listing for the time after World War I, to deduce how many scandals where there 200-130 Year before 1920?

[Hugh Neilson]

Re: What does routine skill check, easy skill check & difficult skill check mean to y

 

Casanova himself had more Scandals in an average Town than are on that list.

 

But Casanova has Legendary seduction skills.

 

And what "scandals" are you including? Does this count every incident of sex with a partner to whom he was not married (lots of that all over the landscape today as well), or some more restricted definition (only where his partner was married? Lots of that goes on today too). The fact is that a lot of what was scandalous a few hundred years ago is generally accepted behavior today.

 

And how can you use a listing for the time after World War I' date=' to deduce how many scandals where there 200-130 Year before 1920?[/quote']

 

I don't. You said that Casanova's successes were more attributable to a general moral decadence in his time than any special skill on his part. I challenge that assertion - similar scandals occur today. They occur with such frequency that very few are even considered newsworthy. I simply selected a list of scandals (and high profile ones) in Christian faiths since the "seduce a nun" trope was the subject of your objection.

[Christopher]

Re: What does routine skill check, easy skill check & difficult skill check mean to y

 

But Casanova has Legendary seduction skills.

The time/soceity he moved in enabeled this. In fact he choose soceities/women he could (relatively) easily seduce.

 

And what "scandals" are you including? Does this count every incident of sex with a partner to whom he was not married (lots of that all over the landscape today as well)' date=' or some more restricted definition (only where his partner was married? Lots of that goes on today too).[/quote']

Do you even think for one single moment what adultery could mean for women? If she was droped, she had no way of fending for her life and she it would be really hard to get her married again. They were not even allowed to learn things on the same level as man and finding work was practically impossible.

We are not talking about reading about it in the "News of the world", but potentially (social or real) death.

 

I don't. You said that Casanova's successes were more attributable to a general moral decadence in his time than any special skill on his part. I challenge that assertion - similar scandals occur today. They occur with such frequency that very few are even considered newsworthy. I simply selected a list of scandals (and high profile ones) in Christian faiths since the "seduce a nun" trope was the subject of your objection.

No, (sex) scandals todays are not similar to the one Casanova was involved in. You said your self, promiscuity/sex before marriage is normal so those are by no means "equal" scandals.

[Hugh Neilson]

Re: What does routine skill check, easy skill check & difficult skill check mean to y

 

The time/soceity he moved in enabeled this. In fact he choose soceities/women he could (relatively) easily seduce.

 

Do you even think for one single moment what adultery could mean for women? If she was droped, she had no way of fending for her life and she it would be really hard to get her married again. They were not even allowed to learn things on the same level as man and finding work was practically impossible.

We are not talking about reading about it in the "News of the world", but potentially (social or real) death.

 

No, (sex) scandals todays are not similar to the one Casanova was involved in. You said your self, promiscuity/sex before marriage is normal so those are by no means "equal" scandals.

 

OK, I'm confused. What is your basis for concluding that Casanova's time was more decadent/immoral than our time? Your comments above seem to indicate there is no basis for comparing the two at all.

[megaplayboy]

Re: What does routine skill check, easy skill check & difficult skill check mean to y

 

Let's try some benchmarks for skill check difficulties:

PS: Bowling

Knock down a pin: routine

Roll a strike: straight skill check

Pick up a 7-10 split: -3 skill check

Bowl a perfect game: -5 skill check

Bowl 3 perfect games: -9 skill check(AIUI, this is actually extremely difficult to accomplish).

 

Any other ideas for benchmark tasks for other skills?

[Christopher]

Re: What does routine skill check, easy skill check & difficult skill check mean to y

 

OK' date=' I'm confused. What is your basis for concluding that Casanova's time was more decadent/immoral than our time? Your comments above seem to indicate there is no basis for comparing the two at all.[/quote']

I read the Wikipedia Article (wich has tons of references) about him: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Giacomo_Casanova

 

What did you read about him?

[gojira]

Re: What does routine skill check, easy skill check & difficult skill check mean to y

 

Any other ideas for benchmark tasks for other skills?

 

Write a computer program:

 

(I don't have my books with me, so I'm going to wing the numbers a bit.)

 

"Average" time for a computer project is about 18 months. Since I don't have my books with me, I'm going to guess that the "taking extra time table" will give you about a +6 to a skill roll for taking one year to do some task. I'm also going to assume that to make any task "routine", you'll need a 14- final skill check.

 

So, write an "average complexity" program in 18 months: routine, if your base skill is already 14-.

 

Write an "average complexity" program in 18 months: skill check at -2, if your base skill is 12- (14-12 = -2).

 

Write an "average complexity" program in less than 18 months: skill check at -1 per -2 months.

 

Write an "greater than average complexity" program: +3 months for each complicating factor. Same penalty above for reducing time: -1 skill check for each -2 months.

-- embedded program (requires firmware or specialized hardware support): +3 months

-- manpower shortage: +3 months for each person the project is short (18 months assumes a reasonable sized team. If a project that would take 10 folks to do in 18 months has only two people, add 8 * 3 = 24 months.)

 

Write an "easier than average complexity program: -3 months for each mitigating factor.

-- simple e-commerce website: 1-2 months total.

-- medium complexity webiste: help desk for large corporation: 6-12 months

-- medium complexity website: e-commerce with accounting back end and order fulfilment for medium company: 6-12 months

 

* * *

 

I'm thinking this sort of extending engineering chart could be used as a basis for other engineering projects. Use a base of 18 months, assume "the right" amount of people, and scale up or down from there based on whether the project is "complex" or "easy" and if you have enough people. Lots and lots of GM handwavium required here, just make up something that fits the plot well.

 

All this is for "PS" skills, i.e.: "PS: Computer Programming". The Computer Programming skill is basically combat programming: doing in phases what should take months or days at least. Shorten times greatly for skills like Computer Programming, Mechanics, Security Systems, etc. when dramatically appropriate. If your gadgeteer has Computer Programming and needs to whip up an "average complexity" program in a couple of days rather than 18 months, let him!

[Hugh Neilson]

Re: What does routine skill check, easy skill check & difficult skill check mean to y

 

I read the Wikipedia Article (wich has tons of references) about him: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Giacomo_Casanova

 

What did you read about him?

 

What does reading about him spoecifically have to do with your claim that Casanova's time was more decadent/immoral than our own, making his seductions easier?

 

For Casanova' date=' as well as his contemporary sybarites of the upper class, love and sex tended to be casual and not endowed with the seriousness characteristic of the Romanticism of the 19th century.[91'] Flirtations, bedroom games, and short-term liaisons were common among nobles who married for social connections rather than love. For Casanova, it was an open field of sexual opportunities.

 

That sounds similar to the casual attitude towards sex in current western culture, rather than being significantly more decadent or immoral (though hardly less so). You also opine above that, should knowledge of the affair come out, the woman would be socially and financially destroyed, but that is not consistent with the comments in the article on which you indicate you base your claims. In fact, that article indicates that, ultimately,

he would plead his unworthiness and arrange for her marriage or pairing with a worthy man' date=' then exit the scene [/quote'].

 

The fact was that he was so effective in this manner that his name is associated with seduction over 200 years later - if the ease of seduction were a function of the times, rather than his own skills, why would he stand out at all, much less be legendary in this regard?

 

I would finally expect players designing a character based on Casanove have visions of playing the legend, not the actual man. They expect to be able to achieve extraordinary seductions because the character purchased an extraordinary seduction skill, just as a player purchasing an extraordinary deduction skill has visions of achieving extraordinary deductions (a la Sherlock Holmes), an extraordinary climbing skill is intended to result in extraordinary success a la Tarzan, etc.

 

To dismiss the more dificult/extraordinary/ "wow - his skill is amazing" possibilities of skills removes the cinematic/dramatic reality of the game in favour of a gritty, mundane reality.

 

While that is fine if that is the goal of the specific game in question, it would probably be accomplished as (or more) easily by simply capping the level of skill the characters can possess to restrict their ability to succeed to "realistic", rather than legendary, levels by not allowing skill rolls to advance beyond a "realistic" level. In fact, the Valdorian Age provides a precedent for this approach in establishing a skill maxima similar to normal characteristic maxima.

[torelin32]

Re: What does routine skill check, easy skill check & difficult skill check mean to y

 

You guys are great...keep giving me good ideas. I'm writing a program to take all this into account...what you all have mentioned in this thread. When I'm finished I will share my fruits of my labor.

[Christopher]

Re: What does routine skill check, easy skill check & difficult skill check mean to y

 

What does reading about him spoecifically have to do with your claim that Casanova's time was more decadent/immoral than our own' date=' making his seductions easier?[/quote']

Hmmm, how about the text you wrote rigth after it:

That sounds similar to the casual attitude towards sex in current western culture' date=' rather than being significantly more decadent or immoral (though hardly less so). You also opine above that, should knowledge of the affair come out, the woman would be socially and financially destroyed, but that is not consistent with the comments in the article on which you indicate you base your claims. In fact, that article indicates that, ultimately,[/quote']

So what is it now? Where they hard to get (making his seduction special), or where they not hard to get (making his seductions mundane).

 

Also note that you only quoted incomplete:

In a pattern he often repeated, he would discover an attractive woman in trouble with a brutish or jealous lover (Act I); he would ameliorate her difficulty (Act II); she would show her gratitude; he would seduce her; a short exciting affair would ensue (Act III); feeling a loss of ardor or boredom setting in, he would plead his unworthiness and arrange for her marriage or pairing with a worthy man, then exit the scene (Act IV).

[...]

asanova claims not to be predatory (“my guiding principle has been never to direct my attack against novices or those whose prejudices were likely to prove an obstacle”); however, his conquests did tend to be insecure or emotionally exposed women.

He also regulary left a city just because the local behavior did not "fit his purposes", because they knew his notoreity or were just more Morally upstanding that what he was used to "work with".

 

The fact was that he was so effective in this manner that his name is associated with seduction over 200 years later - if the ease of seduction were a function of the times' date=' rather than his own skills, why would he stand out at all, much less be legendary in this regard?[/quote']

Because he wrote a book about it. Nobody else did.

[Hugh Neilson]

Re: What does routine skill check, easy skill check & difficult skill check mean to y

 

So what is it now? Where they hard to get (making his seduction special)' date=' or where they not hard to get (making his seductions mundane).[/quote']

 

He was far more successful than his contemporaries, making his seduction special. Having a name synonymous with seduction over 200 years later suggests he had something going for him, doesn't it?

 

And I still see no indication that his times were more immoral/decadent than our own, although they appear to be closer to equivalent from that article, rather than there being a material difference either way.

 

My quote was not directed at the decadence, but rather that he would

arrange for her marriage or pairing with a worthy man, then exit the scene

, which seems to contradict your statement of

Do you even think for one single moment what adultery could mean for women? If she was droped, she had no way of fending for her life and she it would be really hard to get her married again. They were not even allowed to learn things on the same level as man and finding work was practically impossible.

 

We are not talking about reading about it in the "News of the world", but potentially (social or real) death.

 

Leaving her in a better marriage situation doesn't seem like "social or real death" to me. It seems like she comes out pretty much unscathed.

[prestidigitator]

Re: What does routine skill check, easy skill check & difficult skill check mean to y

 

Well, we pamper our children until they are 18 these days, in terms of a lot more than just their sexuality. Doesn't that make them more competent? More studious? More well-rounded? We're a much more civilized, peaceful, motivated society these d...oh, or not. But in any case the bar has been...well, moved. I just don't know that it works that well to measure the morality of different eras with the same stick like that.

 

Anyway, back on topic. I don't require rolls for "routine" tasks unless there are very stressful and complicating circumstances and/or the cost of failing is very significant. For "easy" rolls I require a roll when they are performed under stress but usually not otherwise. "Difficult" rolls always require a roll unless there is no cost for failure and you can try over and over and over again and it makes sense that you would eventually succeed. That's about how I break things down. Heh.

[Mister E]

Re: What does routine skill check, easy skill check & difficult skill check mean to y

 

I'd say maybe 1:100000 post-intellectual college grads can tell the difference between The Golden Rule & a drug prescription.