A Lich's Phylactery

[QuietusEmissary]

I've been trying to work out a a set of abilities for the lich I'm designing. So far, for the "doesn't stay dead" effect, I have:

Cannot Be Slain: Regeneration (1 BODY per Week), Can Heal Limbs, Resurrection (stopped by destroying Phylactery) (29 Active Points); Resurrection Only (-2), Inherent.

The problem is that I have no idea how to represent the lich's body dissipating and re-forming at the Phylactery's location without buying an expensive Triggered MegaScaled Teleport. Or does Regeneration (Resurrection Only) cover that already? Also, any ideas for a good limitation for powers like Life Support that would fail if the Phylactery is destroyed? Would that be Limited Power (and if so, to what degree) or something else?

[QuietusEmissary]

Re: A Lich's Phylactery

 

This is, for clarification, a lich who stores all or part of his soul or life essence in a receptical (the Phylactery) so that he can't die, like Sauron, Voldemort, or a D&D lich. When he is "killed", his body is destroyed and the Phylactery makes a new one for him.

[Nolgroth]

Re: A Lich's Phylactery

 

I've been trying to work out a a set of abilities for the lich I'm designing. So far' date=' for the "doesn't stay dead" effect, I have:[/font']

Cannot Be Slain: Regeneration (1 BODY per Week), Can Heal Limbs, Resurrection (stopped by destroying Phylactery) (29 Active Points); Resurrection Only (-2), Inherent.

The problem is that I have no idea how to represent the lich's body dissipating and re-forming at the Phylactery's location without buying an expensive Triggered MegaScaled Teleport. Or does Regeneration (Resurrection Only) cover that already?

I would say that Resurrection covers the reforming of the body. The special effect is that it ends up elsewhere. You may even apply Extra Time to represent how long it takes for the body to relocate and reform.

Also, any ideas for a good limitation for powers like Life Support that would fail if the Phylactery is destroyed? Would that be Limited Power (and if so, to what degree) or something else?

Why not just use Focus for that. It is probably Inobvious (otherwise the lich is in for a short lifespan) but Accessible versus Inaccessible is entirely up to the special effect. Necklace that can be ripped off with a Grab? Accessible. Ring? Inaccessible. And that doesn't mean that the lich actually has to have the item on his person. It can be hidden behind a brick in the wall for all of that.

[Christopher]

Re: A Lich's Phylactery

 

Just to be sure I understand it right before answering:

Has he other Regeneration Powers? (like one that heals him faster once he is back at negative Body)

How do your picture the Ressurection to work? How long until he can act again? How long until he will be fully healed?

What happens if his Phylactery is destroyed while he is not regenerating?

[prestidigitator]

Re: A Lich's Phylactery

 

Another idea is to build the phylactery itself as a "character". Give it a Summon Lich (Slavishly Loyal) ability and a Mind Link to the lich it summons.

[Christopher]

Re: A Lich's Phylactery

 

Another idea is to build the phylactery itself as a "character". Give it a Summon Lich (Slavishly Loyal) ability and a Mind Link to the lich it summons.

That would mean his body could be affected by a Dispel Summon or Drain Summon.

[Kraven Kor]

Re: A Lich's Phylactery

 

And I certainly would not make it inherent... inherent means the power can't be stopped, period, for the most part. You can't drain it, suppress it, take it away, etc. by anything short of a Major Transform or anything that might be added as a limitation. What were you trying to represent with it being inherent? Trust me, I used to make all sorts of stuff inherent that shouldn't have been.

[Mister E]

Re: A Lich's Phylactery

 

What about storing 1 point of BODY in a Focus and hiding it under your bed? Would that be cheesy?

[prestidigitator]

Re: A Lich's Phylactery

 

What about storing 1 point of BODY in a Focus and hiding it under your bed? Would that be cheesy?

That wouldn't keep you from losing the Body; in fact it would mean you lose it when it's under your bed instead of being carried around by you.

[prestidigitator]

Re: A Lich's Phylactery

 

That would mean his body could be affected by a Dispel Summon or Drain Summon.

I suppose. That could simply be a particular weakness (for temporarily dismissing the threat. Or, if you're worried about it, make the Summon Difficult to Dispel or give the phylactery some Power Defense or something. There are going to be little quirks no matter what way you go. No need to use the idea; it's just another possible implementation.

[Mister E]

Re: A Lich's Phylactery

 

That wouldn't keep you from losing the Body; in fact it would mean you lose it when it's under your bed instead of being carried around by you.

 

That sounds cool. So anyone with the Focus gets the BODY. That makes perfect sense.

 

 

~ Mister E ("Here you go. Have a can of Mr. E on me.")

 

[edit]: By BODY has its own BODY.

[casualplayer]

Re: A Lich's Phylactery

 

The funny thing about Foci is that Foci are funny things. Nolgroth delved into this a bit but Inaccessible can mean "Stored Seven Leagues Away." Making it unable to be incapacitated with a Grab can mean it isn't even there to be Grabbed. There would be a trail of power for those with eyes to see (Sense/Detect Foci-based Powers, Discriminatory, Tracking) and the adventure is often trying run the gauntlet between here and there.

 

Some lich (lichs? liches? lichen?) keep their phylacteries close at hand, even on their person, and protect them with their own vigilance and power. Some rely on nothing more than concealment and Concealment. Some put theirs in a chest, Davy Jones' Locker for a recent movie example. But in each case the mortality of the character is wrapped up in an object.

[QuietusEmissary]

Re: A Lich's Phylactery

 

I would say that Resurrection covers the reforming of the body. The special effect is that it ends up elsewhere. You may even apply Extra Time to represent how long it takes for the body to relocate and reform.

 

Excellent! I was hoping it would be that simple.

 

Just to be sure I understand it right before answering:

Has he other Regeneration Powers? (like one that heals him faster once he is back at negative Body)

How do your picture the Ressurection to work? How long until he can act again? How long until he will be fully healed?

What happens if his Phylactery is destroyed while he is not regenerating?

 

My current version of the lich is a template; I want any given lich to be a unique character with his own attributes and abilities, but using the same soul-preserving mechanic as the others. That Regeneration ability would be all the healing that the template provides, but an individual lich might have another one that helps him recover faster, or make preparations for a future regeneration (like a minion with a Healing spell, or some such). I want it to take a week at the very least (which is reflected in the nature of the power), but beyond that, it's up to the capabilities of the individual lich. There might even be an especially powerful lich whose Regeneration happens faster; such a lich could return within a day or even several hours.

 

Right now I'm constructing the Phylactery as a Follower (with 0 STR, 0 DEX, and 0 CON) with whom the lich has a permanent Mind Link with the Feedback (BODY and STUN) Limitation. So if the Phylactery is damaged, the lich takes equal damage. The Phylactery might not have enough BODY to kill the lich if it's destroyed, but it will certainly hurt, and would cost the lich all of his lich powers (specifically the Resurrection and Life Support that represent his undead existence). If the lich is already injured or has recently regenerated, it might very well finish him off. Making the Phylactery a Follower would also allow the lich to pay for increased PD and ED and several Powers that the Phylactery itself can use (to represent wards and other defenses)

 

And I certainly would not make it inherent... inherent means the power can't be stopped, period, for the most part. You can't drain it, suppress it, take it away, etc. by anything short of a Major Transform or anything that might be added as a limitation. What were you trying to represent with it being inherent? Trust me, I used to make all sorts of stuff inherent that shouldn't have been.

 

That's the whole point. I don't want characters to be able to prevent the lich from coming back except by destroying the Phylactery or employing VERY powerful magic. Sauron wouldn't have been much of an opponent if the Fellowship could've just cut off his connection to the Ring without destroying it, would he?

 

This is the first time I've made a post with quotes in it, so I hope I did it right.

[QuietusEmissary]

Re: A Lich's Phylactery

 

Well I didn't get those cool attribution things in the quotes, but otherwise, success!

 

To address another issue:

 

Why not just use Focus for that. It is probably Inobvious (otherwise the lich is in for a short lifespan) but Accessible versus Inaccessible is entirely up to the special effect. Necklace that can be ripped off with a Grab? Accessible. Ring? Inaccessible. And that doesn't mean that the lich actually has to have the item on his person. It can be hidden behind a brick in the wall for all of that.

 

The funny thing about Foci is that Foci are funny things. Nolgroth delved into this a bit but Inaccessible can mean "Stored Seven Leagues Away." Making it unable to be incapacitated with a Grab can mean it isn't even there to be Grabbed. There would be a trail of power for those with eyes to see (Sense/Detect Foci-based Powers, Discriminatory, Tracking) and the adventure is often trying run the gauntlet between here and there.

 

Some lich (lichs? liches? lichen?) keep their phylacteries close at hand, even on their person, and protect them with their own vigilance and power. Some rely on nothing more than concealment and Concealment. Some put theirs in a chest, Davy Jones' Locker for a recent movie example. But in each case the mortality of the character is wrapped up in an object.

 

Really, now? That's cool. I was under the impression that a Focus was something that you HAD to carry on your person to use, so that it could be damaged, disarmed, or otherwise removed in combat (for Accessible) or taken from you outside of combat (for Inaccessible), especially with Persistent Powers like Life Support. Since most liches (I *think* that's the right spelling...probably) probably won't want to take the source of their immortality wherever they go, I had been planning to go with Physical Manifestation and just defining it as the Phylactery instead of creating an object, but Focus might work better if it would be legal for something like this.

[Nolgroth]

Re: A Lich's Phylactery

 

but Focus might work better if it would be legal for something like this.

Are you planning this for publication? If not, then anything, you as the GM decide, is legal. People get caught up in whether it is book legal and often forget that it is fun. I can see two alternates to Focus (though I suppose Focus is how I would do it right now) without even thinking too hard; Custom Limitation and Special Effect. And that's not even counting your Physical Manifestation idea, which is also valid. You could create a new Limitation called "Tied to Phylactery" and give it a value of -1/4 through -10. Alternately, you can just say that it is and be done with it. It's all up to you and your campaign. Do you think one of your PCs will attempt lichdom at some point in the campaign? If so, define the rules and stick to them. If not, don't sweat it. When the PC paladin finally has that little bastard by the phylactery, it really doesn't matter. Define how it is destroyed (either by points or some special effect method (tossing into a volcano)) and be done with it.

 

The point of all this rant (and sorry about the rant tone) is that NPCs can be built however you need them to be. It is probably good practice for you to build them as if they are going to be approved by somebody else, but not strictly necessary. Don't let the obsession to stat things out ruin your own fun.

 

And to attribute a quote use...

 

 [quote=Nolgroth] 

Where "Nolgroth" is the name of the person you are quoting.

[Steve]

Re: A Lich's Phylactery

 

Okay, the phylactery as a Lich Summoner gave me an idea for character immortality. I'm curious what people think about this one.

 

Character A is able to Summon a soul preservation object of some kind, like the One Ring or whatever. That Summoned object has the ability to Summon Character A if it dies. As long as one of them is around, the other will be summoned back to life.

[Lucius]

Re: A Lich's Phylactery

 

Really, now? That's cool. I was under the impression that a Focus was something that you HAD to carry on your person to use, so that it could be damaged, disarmed, or otherwise removed in combat (for Accessible) or taken from you outside of combat (for Inaccessible), especially with Persistent Powers like Life Support. Since most liches (I *think* that's the right spelling...probably) probably won't want to take the source of their immortality wherever they go, I had been planning to go with Physical Manifestation and just defining it as the Phylactery instead of creating an object, but Focus might work better if it would be legal for something like this.

 

I don't think it IS legal, or at the least, it's pretty dubious. But Nolgroth is right - in your game, it can work however you want it to.

 

The question I would ask is, can someone else prevent it from working merely by gaining possession of it? If so, Focus might be appropriate. If not, probably not.

 

Lucius Alexander

 

Inobvious Inaccessible Palindromedary

[prestidigitator]

Re: A Lich's Phylactery

 

Are you planning this for publication? If not' date=' then anything, you as the GM decide, is legal. People get caught up in whether it is book legal and often forget that it is fun.[/quote']

Oh, quite true. Building it can help define how other powers interact with the whole thing. That can be good, but if it just gives you a headache and starts to get in the way, forget it! IMO the rules are there to be a useful, ambiguous (that's right!), helpful language rather than a hindrance.

[prestidigitator]

Re: A Lich's Phylactery

 

Okay, the phylactery as a Lich Summoner gave me an idea for character immortality. I'm curious what people think about this one.

 

Character A is able to Summon a soul preservation object of some kind, like the One Ring or whatever. That Summoned object has the ability to Summon Character A if it dies. As long as one of them is around, the other will be summoned back to life.

 

Hmm. Well, what I was thinking for the lich is that Mind Link included with the phylactery could give you enough continuity in the story and the monster's "memory" to hold things together, but since the lich is probably more of an NPC obstacle than a character that is really expected to be unique and interesting in terms of personality, it probably wouldn't matter if you're using Summon to generate a, "new lich," each time. I guess you'd have to judge whether that is really sufficient or whether you're going to have to include the Specific Being Advantage to the Summon and a (linked?) Resurrection Healing. At what point do you consider it, "cheating?"

[QuietusEmissary]

Re: A Lich's Phylactery

 

Are you planning this for publication? If not, then anything, you as the GM decide, is legal. People get caught up in whether it is book legal and often forget that it is fun.

 

That's totally true, but I prefer to keep my designs as much in line with what the books say as I can. What originally drew me to the HERO System was the depth of the rules for designing new elements, and to me the biggest part of the fun is using the rules to turn a cool character concept into a part of the game. I love that. So when possible, I try to stay within the rules, because I actually have more fun that way.

 

And I do prefer to keep things like this balanced enough for players to use, if they want to (and can pay the points, of course!). Although D&D is a great game, I had a big problem with some of the arbitrary limitations they put on character options. Do you want to play a noble vampire? Or an assassin who uses his supernatural infiltration skills to fight against a tyranical overlord? Too bad, unless you can get your DM to make an exception to the alignment restrictions. Weird character concepts like that tend to be my favorites. I always hated seeing a real cool part of the game in a book or encounter, and knowing that I could never use it because the rules had put a big "ONLY FOR NONPLAYER CHARACTERS" stamp on it. So whenever possible, I default to making everything available to (and appropriate for) the PCs, just in case one of the players ends up liking it. And it's nice to know that I could justify as an ability for a future PC of my own, too.

 

I didn't really think your post felt like a rant, personally. Everything you said was perfectly reasonable.

 

And thanks for teaching me how to give people credit for what they say!

[prestidigitator]

Re: A Lich's Phylactery

 

I didn't really think your post felt like a rant' date=' personally. Everything you said was perfectly reasonable.[/quote']

Ha! And thus you have found the Hero Games Board's version of a rant. Rather docile, isn't it? This is a pretty friendly place. Welcome!

 

(Okay. Every once in a while we have true rants, but I think more often than not you'll find people to "strike out" with something more akin dry wit and muted sarcasm. People know each other pretty well, and generally appreciate each other even when they might approach things from "violently" different viewpoints. It's a strength of the system that it is ambiguous and tolerates many solutions to the same problem; it's a strength of the community that we recognize this fact, appreciate it, and tolerate each other in a similar fashion.)

[Nolgroth]

Re: A Lich's Phylactery

 

Probably for the best. Since my first couple of posts and reading Lucius's post, I am thinking I would stick with either your initial thought of Physical Manifestation or go with a custom Limitation.

 

And you are welcome. Note that you can use the name portion to represent anything, such as quote=Washington Post if you wanted to show a portion of a news article.

[Nolgroth]

Re: A Lich's Phylactery

 

... it's a strength of the community that we recognize this fact' date=' appreciate it, and tolerate each other in a similar fashion.)[/quote']That's intolerable!

[QuietusEmissary]

Re: A Lich's Phylactery

 

I don't think it IS legal, or at the least, it's pretty dubious. But Nolgroth is right - in your game, it can work however you want it to.

 

The question I would ask is, can someone else prevent it from working merely by gaining possession of it? If so, Focus might be appropriate. If not, probably not.

 

That's what I was originally thinking. The lich definitely doesn't need to be the one in possession of his Phylactery to benefit from it, and it doesn't give another character any direct benefit for having it.

 

...Unless the lich gave it a beneficial Power that it could use on or for a nearby target, creating an incentive to not destroy it, as seen with the One Ring.

[Starcloud]

Re: A Lich's Phylactery

 

Duplicate, perhaps? Or maybe multiform. As long as one of the two "bodies" is around, the other can be recreated.