Normal Damage Weapons used at Range

[Dr Divago]

Hi

in 6E1 231 for HtH attacks says you cannot use "Ranged" modifier

 

this char has the power to create an ice javelin (normal hand to hand attack) who can be also thrown. Similarly to weapon made in FH6 191, he added "ranged based on STR" to hth attack

 

BUT 6E1 states you can use it on HKA, not in HA (ie you can for killing not for normal damage attacks)

 

so... it's legal to build HA with Ranged advantage (like used in FH6 for throwning knives)?

or, if not legal, how can i build an HA who can be used at range?

 

ty for reply

[Steve Long]

Re: Normal Damage Weapons used at Range

 

This doesn't seem to be a rules question but a "how to," so I've moved it to the Discussion forum.

[Christopher]

Re: Normal Damage Weapons used at Range

 

Asuming this is about 6E:

You can apply "Range based on STR" to HKA.

This is not allow for Hand-to-hand Attack. When you want a ranged, normal damage attack that does not adds to STR you simply take blast.

[CrosshairCollie]

Re: Normal Damage Weapons used at Range

 

Apparently, it's legal to put Ranged on an HKA, but not a HA ... which doesn't make a lot of sense to me, so that's a rule I generally ignore.

 

I believe the official way to do it would be to buy an Energy Blast vs PD, with the limitation 'range based on STR'.

[Christopher]

Re: Normal Damage Weapons used at Range

 

Apparently, it's legal to put Ranged on an HKA, but not a HA ... which doesn't make a lot of sense to me, so that's a rule I generally ignore.

 

I believe the official way to do it would be to buy an Energy Blast vs PD, with the limitation 'range based on STR'.

I too wondered about it. We can make the HKA (wich adds to STR) ranged, but not the HA (wich also adds to STR). I can't really decided if it is arbitrarily or it makes a certain (logical) sense to not allow you to throw a Club to do Normal Damage and still ad STR.

 

One way to still make a ranged, normal Damage Attack that requires the use of STR:

6d6 Blast

plus

+6d6 Blast, Linked (to 30 Points of STR; proportionally; -1/2)

[Dr Divago]

Re: Normal Damage Weapons used at Range

 

mmmhhh ok

the rule is pretty clear so is not a "rule question"; btw i dunno why i can just add an advantage to a HKA and i can't on a HA

 

so far i can solve this in three way:

1) i can use blast to create a normal damage attack at range

BUT

blast is not hand to hand; i can use blast at point blank but:

- can be reflected by a reflection (not sure if reflection can reflect hth attack in 6E)

- can be blocked only if GM permits you (blocking ranged attack is something you can do only if GM permits it, 6E2 59; actually, i'm planning on NOT permitting block ranged attack unless you buy deflection, like it was in the 5ER)

- does not add normal STR damage

 

2) The more "realistic" way to use a normal damage weapon at range is using throw maneuver on it (6E1 231 and 6E2 80-83) but again there is two big problems

- i dont' add STR to thrown weapon damage

- an HA is not a weapon, so i can't throw it unless i focus it/give physical manifestation (technically, got no PD and no BODY so max damage is 0 DC)

 

3) i can buy two different powers (ranged and hth, maybe with union)

 

so, let's go creation

Icee is manifestation of pure "frost essence"; she can use her ice power to create a shard of pure ice. She can use this shard like a baton to smash here and there or she can throw them like a javelin.

She got STR 15

 

option 1: blast attack

Ice Shard - blast:  Blast 3d6 (15 Active Points); Range Based On STR (-1/4)
12 points
1 END

she does 3d6 at point blank (aka hth attack)

she does 3d6 normal damage (3DC) at up top 24m (12 with a standing throw)

attack can't be blocked (unless GM allows it (1) or buy a deflection) even at point blank

attack can be reflected

 

option 2: hand attack

Ice Shard - hand attack:  HA +3d6 (15 Active Points); Hand-To-Hand Attack (-1/4)
12 points
1 END

she does 6d6 (6DC) at point blank (aka hth attack)

she does 3d6 (3DC) at up to 24m (12m with a standing throw) IF GM allows it (2)

attack can be blocked normally at hth; follow normal ruling for ranged attacks while at range

attack can't be reflected at hth range; follow normal rules while at range

 

option 3: two different unified powers

Ice Shard - unfied powers
1) Ice Shard - blast:  Blast 3d6 (15 Active Points); Lockout (can't use hand to hand version of Ice Shard while attacking at range; -1/2), Range Based On STR (-1/4), Unified Power (all Ice Shard powers; -1/4) [7 points, 1 END]
2) Ice Shard - hand attack:  HA +3d6 (15 Active Points); Lockout (can't use ranged version of Ice Shard while attacking hand to hand; -1/2), Hand-To-Hand Attack (-1/4), Unified Power (all Ice Shard powers; -1/4) [7 points, 1 END]
14 points
1 END each use

she does 6d6 (6DC) at point blank.

she does 3d6 (3DC) at up to 24m of running throw (12m standing throw) and no rule breaking issue as with previous version (see also note (2))

attack can be blocked normally at hth; follow normal ruling for ranged attacks while at range

attack can't be reflected at hth range; follow normal rules while at range

can't use multiple attack to attack both hth and ranged version same phase

cost a little more (around 15% more); cost rise to 20 point (66% more) if i can't use lockout

 

option 3 beta 2: multipowered

Ice Shard  [Multipower]
Ice Shard:  Multipower, 15-point reserve 	
1f	1) Ice Shard - blast:  Blast 3d6 (15 Active Points); Range Based On STR (-1/4) [1 END]
1f	2) Ice Shard - hand attack:  HA +3d6 (15 Active Points); Hand-To-Hand Attack (-1/4) [1 END]
17 points
1 END each use

same as option 3 but with more total cost

 

option 4: killing ice shard

Ice Shard - killing:  HKA 1/2d6 (1d6+1 w/STR), Range Based On STR (+1/4) (12 Active Points)
12 points
1 END

she does 1d6+1 (4DC) hand to hand

she does 1d6+1 (4DC) at range

follow normal rule for both hand to hand and ranged attack

and it's way more simpler than building a multipower or two unified powers

 

Notes:

(1) 6E2 59 clearly states "if GM permits...". i really don't like the idea of blocking ranged attacks without proper powers. maybe i should start a thread about it...

(2) i really doubt i would permit to throw a HA without some proper Focus, Physical Manifestation or Lingering advantage

[prestidigitator]

Re: Normal Damage Weapons used at Range

 

I have the suspicion that this rule for the difference between HKA and HA mainly stems from the old (5E), very complex rules for adding damage with different types of attack. If you've carefully considered what Advantages to consider when figuring DCs, what kind of maximums you might want to place on damage adding, and all of that, IMO it would be appropriate to add consideration of whether or not to allow forms of the Ranged Advantage on HA and HKA to the same bundle of construction and play guidelines.

[Kraven Kor]

Re: Normal Damage Weapons used at Range

 

I think an Ice Javelin sounds fairly RKA to me... you aren't punching them with the ice javelin or hitting them with kinetic energy... you are throwing a spike made out of ice at them. A 'frost bolt' or 'snowball' type attack would, to me, be more agreeable with a Blast w/ Range Based on STR.

 

Just my $0.25 (adjusted for inflation and my own ego.)

[Dr Divago]

Re: Normal Damage Weapons used at Range

 

I have the suspicion that this rule for the difference between HKA and HA mainly stems from the old (5E)' date=' very complex rules for adding damage with different types of attack. If you've carefully considered what Advantages to consider when figuring DCs, what kind of maximums you might want to place on damage adding, and all of that, IMO it would be appropriate to add consideration of whether or not to allow forms of the [i']Ranged[/i] Advantage on HA and HKA to the same bundle of construction and play guidelines.

Dunno, but in 5E and 5ER is exactly the same rule

and the "very complex rules for adding damage" is pretty similar: only that in 5E you add to do some math (like addiction and subtraction) while in 6E there is an easy-to-read table

 

differencies between HA and HKA are also the "hand attack only": HA has same active cost than Blast, with a mandatory -1/4 limitations; HKA is same cost of RKA without any mandatory limitation

this looks like a very old structure, maybe 4th or 3rd edition, but i'm too new to say it... maybe there is a consideration about keeping killing attacks more expensive

[Christopher]

Re: Normal Damage Weapons used at Range

 

I think an Ice Javelin sounds fairly RKA to me... you aren't punching them with the ice javelin or hitting them with kinetic energy... you are throwing a spike made out of ice at them. A 'frost bolt' or 'snowball' type attack would, to me, be more agreeable with a Blast w/ Range Based on STR.

 

Just my $0.25 (adjusted for inflation and my own ego.)

Or it is just ice Energy formed into a Javelin. The same way lightning energy is formed into a lightning bolt (wich is also how this seemingly KA weapon can do Normal Damage).

 

blast is not hand to hand; i can use blast at point blank but:

Yes, you can use your blast at HTH-range. There is not even a penalty. And if you do it, it is a HTH Attack

 

Do not mistake the range of a Power and the Range it is used:

If Captain Atom or Ironman fires his palm blast at a distance, it is a Ranged attack.

If either touches the enemy with said palm and then releases the energy, it is an HTH attack. It will circumvent a Block vs. Ranged, but will also trigger Damage Shields and his normal CSL with Blast might not apply (afer all, this use is rather unusual/untypical).

I think you would have to define the CSL so they cover the Ranged and HTH-Use, wich I would count as seperate attacks. 8-point CSL for the coudl be a judgement call (since all the Framework slotts times two would still be less than "Any ranged" or "Any HTH").

 

If the character uses Steching, he can deviler HTH-Range attacks at a greater distance from his body (normal Reach is 1 m), but it is still a HTH-Attack (including Activating Damage Shields, how it is blocked, etc...).

[dsatow]

Re: Normal Damage Weapons used at Range

 

I'd just go with a custom advantage on EB for +1/2 (can add Strength).

[Christopher]

Re: Normal Damage Weapons used at Range

 

Character Example for using normally Ranged Attacks in HTH:

Grimmjow from Bleach:

Here is he

 

He has (like many of his colleagous with similar Powers an Ranged Attack (it's used that way 99% of the time), Called Cero

 

But, he is a didicated HTH Fighter, wich means he tend to use like

this or this (most likely he has some all HTH-Levels, or at lesat 5 Points designed to Cover unarmed, Blades, the claws of his second form and HTH use of Cero - all things he was shown to use regulary).

[CrosshairCollie]

Re: Normal Damage Weapons used at Range

 

I think an Ice Javelin sounds fairly RKA to me... you aren't punching them with the ice javelin or hitting them with kinetic energy... you are throwing a spike made out of ice at them. A 'frost bolt' or 'snowball' type attack would, to me, be more agreeable with a Blast w/ Range Based on STR.

 

Just my $0.25 (adjusted for inflation and my own ego.)

 

The main difference is whether your power projects the ice chunk/ice spear, or if you have to physically chuck the thing after you create it (plus just how much detail you feel like putting in the build).

[Dr Divago]

Re: Normal Damage Weapons used at Range

 

the whole things was around a power concept

 

he (or she or it) create a "weapon" made of "energy" (ice, lightning, fruit jelly, whatever) and use it to smash bad guys

plus, can throw it like a ranged weapon, in similar manner to a throwing knife or hatchet but normal

 

so far seems you can't use hand attack this way, and to be honest it sounds really strange to me

 

so far, for my player i gave Lingering (Time Limit in 6E) and Physical Manifestation to HA; so for 1 turn weapon is fully physical and he can throw it

main problem is if i buy a +8d6 HA with 10 STR, i do 10d6 in hth and still 2d6 while throwing (it's based on my 10 points of STR); at the moment is not really a problem 'cause he got only a +1d6 HA and never use it, so in the future i can advise him to go for the "hand attack + blast, unified powers" option

 

it just... looks a really strange thing, you can buy a killing attack hand to hand with "ranged" advantage and you can't do the same for normal damage...

[Christopher]

Re: Normal Damage Weapons used at Range

 

Just give him a Blast. And make certain he applies Skill levels to HTH-use and Ranged use of the Blast. For example:

3-point CSL (Forst Blast, Frost Blast HTH-use, [one other maneuver or attack]).

 

I think there are some logical usues regarding "adding STR to an Energy attack" in general. But then again STR can mean many things, including natural Projection of gravity on HTH-Range.

So when in doubt, or adding STR is really important and the "Compund Power, with some parts linked to STR" is to complex:

Just ignore the rule and allow Range Based on STR on HA vs Energy Defense, with the SFX of throwing an "Ice Spear".

[prestidigitator]

Re: Normal Damage Weapons used at Range

 

Dunno, but in 5E and 5ER is exactly the same rule

and the "very complex rules for adding damage" is pretty similar: only that in 5E you add to do some math (like addiction and subtraction) while in 6E there is an easy-to-read table

Yes, they had the same rule. And I believe this is a holdover from then, see? I disagree that the rules for adding damage were so similar. 5E® attempted to define the notion of "Base Damage", and various things added to it, or circumvented the rules for doubling Base Damage, or were subject to doubling rules if this but not that, or.... No, 6E simplified things enormously. Now you choose what Advantages you believe affect damage, and apply them to the Base Points, and every 5 Active Points from that is a DC (or do exactly the reverse to see how many dice of damage more DCs add). There are vague suggestions about how much damage you might allow to be added to an attack, but no real attempt to differentiate between damage added by Martial Arts, Movement, Maneuvers, Strength, adding to Killing Attacks vs. Normal Attacks vs. "weapons", etc.

 

Before there were loads of rules and definitions and corner cases. Now there is one mechanic, and a suggestion or two applied generically that you are expected to use as you see fit. I see that as a huge improvement that can cut back drastically on the number of exceptions that have to cascade through all the mechanics of the system to try to mop up after the cumbersome quirks.

[Christopher]

Re: Normal Damage Weapons used at Range

 

Before there were loads of rules and definitions and corner cases. Now there is one mechanic' date=' and a suggestion or two applied generically that you are expected to use as you see fit. I see that as a [i']huge[/i] improvement that can cut back drastically on the number of exceptions that have to cascade through all the mechanics of the system to try to mop up after the cumbersome quirks.

Yet another reason why I am happy to have started with 6E. In the most simple aproach (I do) I just take the base DC (in 90% AP/5), add all DCs that add to that (CSL, Maneuvers), then find out how many dice (with this amount of DC-affecting Advantages) comes out in the end.

i even find it iritating that they write 2d6 KA and 8d6 Blast. I would just write "6 DC KA" and "8 DC Blast" (since you basically buy them DC per DC).

[prestidigitator]

Re: Normal Damage Weapons used at Range

 

I would just write "6 DC KA" and "8 DC Blast" (since you basically buy them DC per DC).

Good point, and I agree. Many times I have done just that myself.

[Dr Divago]

Re: Normal Damage Weapons used at Range

 

Before there were loads of rules and definitions and corner cases. Now there is one mechanic' date=' and a suggestion or two applied generically that you are expected to use as you see fit. I see that as a [i']huge[/i] improvement that can cut back drastically on the number of exceptions that have to cascade through all the mechanics of the system to try to mop up after the cumbersome quirks.

mmmhhh

i'm not a veteran player; i started playing superheroic last year and a running fantasy campaign is think no more than 2 years long (we stop every six month to play another game, then another game again, then coming back to hero)

but i found this not really complicated

- 2 csl add +1 DC

- martial arte add +x DC where x is the number written on the maneuver

- max doubling damage

 

only the STR has special rule, and this one is simplified in 6E using a table instead of a math formula (i got really no problem with math formulas, even 'cause HD does all the calculation!)

 

ok, 6E is simpler... but really don't see this overwhelming complication on 5ER...

 

btw, still the problem is unsolved: HA get the limitations while HKA not, and HKA can be ranged via a simple advantage while HA not...

why there is this xenophobia vs HA? u.u

[Hyper-Man]

Re: Normal Damage Weapons used at Range

 

I suggest taking a look at this old thread dealing with the same subject matter:

 

Thread: Ranged HA - What so bad about it