Shapeshifter : The Hawk-whale strategy

[IKerensky]

Hi,

 

one of my PC is a shapeshifter (16 animalsforms build on 350pts max). Under the advice of a fellow PC he plan to use a new strategy : fly above his target in hawk shape then transform into blue whale and crash upon it.

 

It sound pretty effective, even if not discriminary. What I wonder is how damaging it could be to himself.

 

I think that at least he should take damage from being out of the water, then how much damage for the fall and reception on a somewhat pointed target ? Also, what if he DIVE in hawk form before transforming, I guess the extra velocity could be very dangerous...

 

I am also pondering about the Fun factor versus realism, should I allow it because it seems like a fun and inventive idea or disallow it because it looks like a quick way to die.

[Escafarc]

Re: Shapeshifter : The Hawk-whale strategy

 

Depending on how high he falls from he could take up to 30d6 and more if he increases his velocity some how.

See falling damage 6E2 page 140

[Bloodstone]

Re: Shapeshifter : The Hawk-whale strategy

 

I would allow it.

 

It's a classic metamorph trick. Beast Boy, the Vision and Hank Pym do this sort of thing it all the time.

 

There are rules for increasing size/mass during a move through, but I'm not sure where they are in the 6E books

 

In 5E I believe they are covered in the Combat Handbook (p137), which I beleive are reprinted from the Champions main book. I think it was also covered in the Ultimate Metamorph...

 

You have to make sure he has his powers done correctly to allow for it though (the multiform transformation needs to be fast enough, for example, or he needs to fly high enough).

 

Of course, he's going to probably end up taking a lot of damage doing this, so I hope the whale form is tough enough to take it.

[Hatut Zeraze]

Re: Shapeshifter : The Hawk-whale strategy

 

Attack an opponent in the water as a whale. Swallow him whole. Then turn into a hawk and squeeze him to death!

 

Of course, the intended victim would probably burst from within the poor hawk and send hawk guts all over the place, so that might not really be in the top 5 Hawk-Whale maneuvers of all time.

[Christopher]

Re: Shapeshifter : The Hawk-whale strategy

 

I would allow it.

 

It's a classic metamorph trick. Beast Boy, the Vision and Hank Pym do this sort of thing it all the time.

 

There are rules for increasing size/mass during a move through, but I'm not sure where they are in the 6E books

I think that was the APG I, "Fastball Special".

 

I woudl allow it - as the SFX of Attack an. Maybe as the SFX of a Maneuver in the "Morphocombat" Martial Arts as shown in HSMA.

 

If he really want's to do this by literally transformign int oa whale - they aren't exaclty durable and he will take the same damage (or even more from the fall). I would count that as a special Move Thorugh where your "Whale Fallign Speed" is your velocity. The problem is you move on and the ground doesn't want's to be your friend...

[IKerensky]

Re: Shapeshifter : The Hawk-whale strategy

 

As a SFX of an attack ? nice idea. I have to check the Morphocombat thingies , sound like there is nice things in it.

 

He have the basic Multiform power so I guess the transformation is instant.

 

Anyway I should probably have him roll to hit with his move through

[csyphrett]

Re: Shapeshifter : The Hawk-whale strategy

 

I have had this in play in a Heroes Unlimited game. The shapeshifter had invulnerability so the penalties from impact didn't matter.

 

This is the kind of manuever you do when you are right above the target and the damage is negligible to you.

 

Chris missed for example

 

CES

[Christopher]

Re: Shapeshifter : The Hawk-whale strategy

 

Okay, looked some more stuff up:

Fast Ball Special is in Champiosn 6E 179. And it notes if somebody "drops" on somebody else (especially people with DI), use the rules for dropped objects on 6E2 141.

 

Those say an object should do at least damage equal to "the str required to lift it". With maximum Number of Dice equal to Body + PD (the breaking point. In the chase of characters, I would say Body x2 + PD).

Wikkipedia list the Blue Whale at 180 metric tons and the humpback at 36 tons. So they would do (and recieve) 12-13d6 and 10d6 respectively.

 

But a normal human can easily archive a Velocity of 60m/segment with falling (doing 12d6 when he lands on someone). So every level of DI could imho increase that top speed by around +5m/segment. The acceleration per semgent should be always so, that tops speed is archived in 6 sgements.

So thier top falling speed of the two whales could be around 160m/segment and 150m/segment respectively. (let just say: ouch and invoke maximum damage here).

 

That is one "using falling objects and move-through rules".

 

When you want to build that as a maneuver or Power:

+6 HTH-Attack, Extra Time (one Segment), Linked to Movement.

This one is ideal if the character is build as a bunch of Powers like Flight, DI and Shape Shift that "simulate" all the possible shapes (no multiform, all his power just have the SFX of shape shifting).

Could also be a good chase for using Area Of Effect. Note that in this writeup, the attacker takes no Damage.

 

I checked "Battle Shifting" (HSMA 78; no idea how I got to Morphocombat). There is no maneuver for this, but you coudl easily build a maneuver like this:

5 Drop as a Whale: Strike +4d6 (6), +v/6 (3), +2 OCV (2), -2 DCV(-2), Lasting Restiction (-1), You Fall (-1), extra Segment(-1), Takes Half Damage(-1)

[Bloodstone]

Re: Shapeshifter : The Hawk-whale strategy

 

He have the basic Multiform power so I guess the transformation is instant.

 

Actually, Multiform takes a half-phase to change from any one from to any other.

 

You need an the Instant Change adder to make it a Zero-phase action.

[Escafarc]

Re: Shapeshifter : The Hawk-whale strategy

 

 

But a normal human can easily archive a Velocity of 60m/segment with falling (doing 12d6 when he lands on someone). So every level of DI could imho increase that top speed by around +5m/segment. The acceleration per semgent should be always so, that tops speed is archived in 6 sgements.

So thier top falling speed of the two whales could be around 160m/segment and 150m/segment respectively. (let just say: ouch and invoke maximum damage here).

 

 

Large Animals are not usually built with Density Increase(check out the HERO System Bestiary) so they would still max out 60m/seg.

[Christopher]

Re: Shapeshifter : The Hawk-whale strategy

 

Large Animals are not usually built with Density Increase(check out the HERO System Bestiary) so they would still max out 60m/seg.

Let me guess:

there are built with Growth (or the Size template). And Growth(and the size templates) contain about 3 Level of DI per Level in the values.

[Escafarc]

Re: Shapeshifter : The Hawk-whale strategy

 

Let me guess:

there are built with Growth (or the Size template). And Growth(and the size templates) contain about 3 Level of DI per Level in the values.

 

Growth doesn't have anything to do with Density Increase. An item's density stays the same no matter what size it is.

[Christopher]

Re: Shapeshifter : The Hawk-whale strategy

 

Growth doesn't have anything to do with Density Increase. An item's density stays the same no matter what size it is.

The mass increases up to 8 fold (equal to what three levels of DI do). Def increases by 3, STR by 15, STUN by 6, KB-Res by -6m. Again waht 3 Levels of higher mass/Density Increase* do.

 

*Density is only a function of Mass/Volume and sine your volume grows equally to "density" does not increases. But your mass does.

DI just let's your mass grow, without your size wich affects your density - as side effect of the increased mass.

[Escafarc]

Re: Shapeshifter : The Hawk-whale strategy

 

The mass increases up to 8 fold (equal to what three levels of DI do). Def increases by 3, STR by 15, STUN by 6, KB-Res by -6m. Again waht 3 Levels of higher mass/Density Increase* do.

 

*Density is only a function of Mass/Volume and sine your volume grows equally to "density" does not increases. But your mass does.

DI just let's your mass grow, without your size wich affects your density - as side effect of the increased mass.

 

But mass doesn't have an effect on falling the blue whale and a human would fall at the same rate(well maybe the whale would fall slower because of it's larger surface area)

[Escafarc]

Re: Shapeshifter : The Hawk-whale strategy

 

[Christopher]

Re: Shapeshifter : The Hawk-whale strategy

 

But mass doesn't have an effect on falling the blue whale and a human would fall at the same rate(well maybe the whale would fall slower because of it's larger surface area)

While your poitns is correct that the acceleration is equal (forgot that inertia cancels out the higher weight when calculating acceleration), the terminal velocity won't.

In fact the feather in your video has a lot higher terminal verlocity than it would have been in an atmosphere under the same gravity (because high drag/mass ratio is a design feature, so much it reaches Terminal velocity nearly instantly in atmospheres).

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Terminal_velocity

 

So the whale would only increase it's top falling speed (terminal velocity), not it's acceleration.

[Martin2]

Re: Shapeshifter : The Hawk-whale strategy

 

If a blue whale lands normally on a beach (by being propelled by waves) it will die if not refloated within a set time. Its body can not stand the weight on its organs out of water (and difficulty breathing etc). In real life dropping a blue whale at any speed onto the ground is death. Terminal velocity will be death very fast.

 

A whale with its large mass it may be able to absorb a lot of gun fire but all that mass hitting the ground is instant death in my book (so a dead character).

 

But then stats for a character blue whale woul dbe different from a real blue whale.

[Christopher]

Re: Shapeshifter : The Hawk-whale strategy

 

But then stats for a character blue whale woul dbe different from a real blue whale.

Especially for a Superpowered Blue Whale (one with super-level defenses and and body).

[Bloodstone]

Re: Shapeshifter : The Hawk-whale strategy

 

If a blue whale lands normally on a beach (by being propelled by waves) it will die if not refloated within a set time. Its body can not stand the weight on its organs out of water (and difficulty breathing etc). In real life dropping a blue whale at any speed onto the ground is death. Terminal velocity will be death very fast.

 

[Christopher]

Re: Shapeshifter : The Hawk-whale strategy

 

Yes, ideed. Knowing the why behind the thoughts of the bowl of petunias is a lot more relevant in the long term. As arthur will find out in the books.

[IKerensky]

Re: Shapeshifter : The Hawk-whale strategy

 

I LOVE THIS THING, what is it from ? is it a book ???

[Escafarc]

Re: Shapeshifter : The Hawk-whale strategy

 

I LOVE THIS THING' date=' what is it from ? is it a book ???[/quote']

 

The Hitchhiker's Guide To the Galaxy

[The Weapon]

Re: Shapeshifter : The Hawk-whale strategy

 

But mass doesn't have an effect on falling the blue whale and a human would fall at the same rate(well maybe the whale would fall slower because of it's larger surface area)

No the whale falls faster because it's mass to surface area ratio is higher. The surface area determines the air resistence and the mass the force downwards. When these are the same that's terminal velocity. Since mass increases with the cube of lenght and surface area by the square the amount of air resistence per kilogram at any speed goes up with the cube root of the square of size. Since air resistance goes up by the square of velocity this means that terminal velocity goes up by the cube root of size.

[csyphrett]

Re: Shapeshifter : The Hawk-whale strategy

 

No the whale falls faster because it's mass to surface area ratio is higher. The surface area determines the air resistence and the mass the force downwards. When these are the same that's terminal velocity. Since mass increases with the cube of lenght and surface area by the square the amount of air resistence per kilogram at any speed goes up with the cube root of the square of size. Since air resistance goes up by the square of velocity this means that terminal velocity goes up by the cube root of size.

 

It's bigger so it falls faster? I am guessing here because I don't understand what you just said.

CES

[Christopher]

Re: Shapeshifter : The Hawk-whale strategy

 

It's bigger so it falls faster? I am guessing here because I don't understand what you just said.

CES

First: In a 1 G gravity field everything accelerates with the same 9.8 m/s. A feather. A whale. A human. A human with parachute.

 

The only difference between them is their terminal velocity - there "top falling speed". The point at wich air-resistance cancels prevents any more acceleration. If your speed is somehow higher than you Terminal Velocitry, you actually slow down to it (that's how a parachute works. It just caps your terminal velocity).

 

Terminal velocity is determined by:

a) mass

surface area

 

When something "grows" to twice the size, it's mass increases by the factor 8. It's surface only by the factor 4. So asuming a linear growth, the terminal velcoity would also increase.

 

So: It's heavier and hasn't enough surface to cancel that out, so their top speed is faster.