Regenerative Shields

[Sean Waters]

Re: Regenerative Shields

 

I am looking at the REC aspect of the power. Is this a post segment 12 recovery only or would it add up if you spent a phase recovering as well?

 

Doc

 

I suppose that it would 'start' once you take a recovery of any sort: you do not get the REC instantly, but spread evenly over the next turn.

 

One issue: Say you are down 10 stun and get a recovery. Your SPD is 5 so you recover 4/phase over the next turn. If you had the recovery all at once then you could only recover the 10 Stun and would not recover more until your next recovery. Spreading it out potentially means (depending on how you rule it) that you can recover more than that 10 Stun if you take damage in the following turn. if you did rule that way thn maybe the 'limitation' of not getting the recovery 'up front' would be balanced by being able to potentially recover more and the 'Delayed Recovery' limitation should be removed.

[Sean Waters]

Re: Regenerative Shields

 

Christopher's post just made me think of an advantage of using STUN for this kind of force field. I am presuming it remains inside the defences but it defends against all of the things that those defences do not usually protect against. It will soak up NND damage, it is not subject to armour piercing etc. So it could be quite an effective defence in a game where attacks veer to the exotic...

 

Doc

 

Last edited by Doc Democracy; Mar 2nd, '12 at 04:10 PM. Reason: grammar

 

A great mind seldom differs. I had no idea your Gran knew so much about Hero.

 

Actually I say 'stun works against everything': it does not work against stunning, which is why the Wolverine build above included an extra CON element.

[Christopher]

Re: Regenerative Shields

 

Regarding the Price of recovery for the "STUN-reserve", I had soem thoughts about how the Endurance Reserve is Priced:

The Recovery is Rated as 3 REC (3 AP), Only for Endurance (-1/2), Independant (-0); 2 Real Cost

 

"Indepentant" seem to be a "boni and penalties equal" thing. On the ons side it means this Recovery is unaffected by you being K.O. On the other hand it also means it only works against the Single pool of Endurance and you can't actively recover it.

 

The Price for End-Reserve END is a little bit more tricky, as it seems to be higher than normal Endurance. Taking 4 Character Points of each (20 normal END, 16 Endurance Reserve END) it seems to have a +1/4 Persistent Advantage - so it works while you are Stunned and K.O.. It also has the independant Limitation, so only one type of REC (the one you bought specifically for that one*) counts for it.

 

*It is calrified in the APG's that that END-Reserves can't share REC. Also a VPP needs a +1/4 Advantage when you want to choose between normal or Reserve Endurance when makign powers.

[CptPatriot]

Re: Regenerative Shields

 

How about if we tried making the RFF(regenerating force field) as a hybrid; using some resistant defenses and Stun to soak?

 

I hadn't thought about trying to manipulate when the RFF takes the damage in the typical order of things, but that does make sense.

 

Now, a lot of concepts for FF as Defenses have been brought up: Damage Reduction, Barrier, combinations of Stun/Rec and/or Regen, but is there a way we can try to make this construct within the scope of what books are out?

 

Our RFF is now a bank of Stun & Body, possibly some resistant defenses in the form of either Barrier or Resistant Protection and/or Damage Reduction. Now, are there any consequences, if the RFF runs out of Stun or Body?

[SteveZilla]

Re: Regenerative Shields

 

It is not limited to being outside your defences (unless there is a rule that says such characteristic buys have to be which I have missed), it is between your defences and your personal STUN/BODY. That is the way I see it working, even if it is a force field type thing. As you say if it IS outside then it would be cheaper as you could stick on at least an additional -1/2.

 

The advantage of this sort of 'defence' is that it works against AVAD, Penetrating and all the other stuff that normally foils defences. Stun works against everything.

 

Except the amount of STUN damage going over the target's CON and Stunning them?

 

Actually I say 'stun works against everything': it does not work against stunning' date=' which is why the Wolverine build above included an extra CON element.[/quote']

 

Ah, okay.

[Sean Waters]

Re: Regenerative Shields

 

How about if we tried making the RFF(regenerating force field) as a hybrid; using some resistant defenses and Stun to soak?

 

I hadn't thought about trying to manipulate when the RFF takes the damage in the typical order of things, but that does make sense.

 

Now, a lot of concepts for FF as Defenses have been brought up: Damage Reduction, Barrier, combinations of Stun/Rec and/or Regen, but is there a way we can try to make this construct within the scope of what books are out?

 

Our RFF is now a bank of Stun & Body, possibly some resistant defenses in the form of either Barrier or Resistant Protection and/or Damage Reduction. Now, are there any consequences, if the RFF runs out of Stun or Body?

 

 

A hybrid force field would certainly be a sensible and cheaper option...but...you simply can not build a character who has defences against everything, which leads to logical inconsistencies between the build and the description of how the power works. Worth it though, IMO. This was just an attempt to take the idea to an extreme to see where we ended up.

[SteveZilla]

Re: Regenerative Shields

 

Here's my stab at this using 6e:

 

Temporary "Invulnerability":

Barrier: 10 PD/10 ED, 16 BODY, 4m long, 2m tall, ½m thick, Non-Anchored, Counteracts Indirect (+¼), One-Way Transparent (+1), Mobile (+¼), Reduced Endurance (0 END; +½) (180 Active Points); No Range(-½), Personal Defense(-½). Total Cost 90 Points.

 

Instead of it being STUN damage that will "take it down", it is BODY. In a 12 DC game (i.e., most 'regular' attacks are going to do 60 Active Points worth of regular/killing damage), it will take 8 hits to knock this power down. During that time, this character takes no STUN damage from those attacks (except potentially the last one). Playing around with the PD/ED values, and the amount of BODY, will modify how long it will last. I didn't include any kind of "shield regeneration" into the mix because I thought that could easily make this power near-unbeatable. If someone wants to add in a kind of "regeneration" (probably with Aid), I would strongly suggest lowering the PD/ED values.

 

Also, this power might benefit from some form of Limitation that gives it a recharge/cooldown period that prevents it from being re-established the very next Phase after it is dropped.

 

With the One-Way Transparent Advantage, I don't expect the "thickness" of the barrier to be an issue to interacting normally (i.e., it won't prevent) with the environment like picking up stuff. Naturally, said stuff is on the "outside" of this defense.

[Sean Waters]

Re: Regenerative Shields

 

That is certainly a tough defence, although I may have issues with how it is used in practice; effectively you are carrying a portable wall with you. Mobile barriers have no STR and can not be used to push stuff, unless your GM rules that 'one way transparent' allows you to use STR through the barrier without restriction. If anything it seems too tough for the cost and that rings alarm bells. Whilst you can atatck through it I doubt you can manipulate stuff through it (pick things up and such).

 

I'm also not sure if I would allow 'personal defence': people can still stand behind you!

 

I actually thought when I first saw 'barrier' that it would be nice if you could buy a regeneration rate for it.

[Christopher]

Re: Regenerative Shields

 

the cost could be mitigated with a cooldown. Acording to APG I 5 Minutes would be -1.

 

As for the issue of transparent and usign STR through it:

It's indeed an issue. But a -0 Limitation "Does not affects use of STR by or vs Character" could solve this, as could the Barrir Options in APG II.

[bigbywolfe]

Re: Regenerative Shields

 

the cost could be mitigated with a cooldown. Acording to APG I 5 Minutes would be -1.As for the issue of transparent and usign STR through it:It's indeed an issue. But a -0 Limitation "Does not affects use of STR by or vs Character" could solve this' date=' as could the Barrir Options in APG II.[/quote']Wouldn't your suggested Limitation negate the very purpose of this power as it would no longer protect against Damage caused by STR?

[SteveZilla]

Re: Regenerative Shields

 

That is certainly a tough defense' date=' although I may have issues with how it is used in practice; effectively you are carrying a portable wall with you. Mobile barriers have no STR and can not be used to push stuff, unless your GM rules that 'one way transparent' allows you to use STR through the barrier without restriction. If anything it seems too tough for the cost and that rings alarm bells. Whilst you can attack through it I doubt you can manipulate stuff through it (pick things up and such).[/quote']

 

Well, I did foresee that as a possible result of using Barrier. I had thought that since having the +1 One-Way Advantage lets you use your STR to attack "through" the Barrier, it would let you use less than that and for non-attack reasons. If this is not the case, there is still a work-around: No Range TK.

 

I'm also not sure if I would allow 'personal defense': people can still stand behind you!

 

Personal Defense is a Limitation, eliminating that as a valid use. With it, the Barrier no more provides cover for someone 'behind' you than your own PD/ED. And it includes a lower Limitation, Restricted Shape (-¼), since it only englobes (you).

 

I actually thought when I first saw 'barrier' that it would be nice if you could buy a regeneration rate for it.

 

That would be neat, but imo very likely could be unbalancing. You could simulate a limited "regeneration" by buying more BODY for the Barrier and limiting it in some way...

[Christopher]

Re: Regenerative Shields

 

Wouldn't your suggested Limitation negate the very purpose of this power as it would no longer protect against Damage caused by STR?

"Does not affects non-damaging use of STR by or agaisnt Character".

 

And in the End, Two Way Transparence (non-damaiging uses of STR) makes you normally capable and succeptible for a Grab, Shove, throw, Trip and the like while protecting you agaisnt pure STR punches.

[SteveZilla]

Re: Regenerative Shields

 

I do belive there are rules listed in Barrier that govern it being moved after becoming unafixed (either that way naturally, or has been "broken free")

[Ice9]

Re: Regenerative Shields

 

If anything it seems too tough for the cost and that rings alarm bells.

Too tough for the cost? 180 AP would get you 60/60 Armor, or 18 DCs of Damage Negation (to both). Too tough for many campaigns, sure, but it's not exactly getting defense on the cheap.

[Sean Waters]

Re: Regenerative Shields

 

Too tough for the cost? 180 AP would get you 60/60 Armor' date=' or 18 DCs of Damage Negation (to both). Too tough for many campaigns, sure, but it's not exactly getting defense on the cheap.[/quote']

 

Well.....you may be right, BUT bear this in mind. the actual cost is 90 points because of the limitations that make the defence 'personal' so the cost, for comparison purposes, is more like 90. You have the equivalent of a 45/45 Resistant Protection. That is better, isn't it?

 

In some ways it is BUT it will still let some Stun through a 12d6 attack a little under half the time and quite a bit through if the attack is AP. Moreover the Barrier defence counteracts ADAV attacks.

 

What?

 

Well, it is a wall. If you are standing behind a wall, a NND attack will not ignore it and go through.

 

It also prevents Penetrating attacks from working as the damage hits the Wall not the person inside it.

 

That is the equivalent of having quite a few levels of hardened on the personal defence, which would bring the equivalent defence (working on say 2 levels, or +1/2) to 30/30: again very tough but nowhere near as tough as the Barrier defence.

[Sean Waters]

Re: Regenerative Shields

 

Here's a thought:

 

Regenerating defences

48 1) Resistant Protection (20 PD/20 ED) (60 Active Points); Costs Endurance (Only Costs END when Activated; -1/4) 6 END PLUS

12 2) Endurance Reserve (30 END, 6 REC) (12 Active Points) 0 END

So what happens is that you have 20/20 defences with an END reserve but the END reserve only gets used at whatever rate the defences are needed: if you take a hit that requires all 20 points, it costs you 6 END. That END comes from the END Reserve which can take 5 'full' hits before going down and regenerates/recovers at the rate of 1 full hit per turn.

 

It is not an efficient build in that for the same 60 points you could have 20/20 resistant defence that won't get chipped away, but if it is concept realisation you are after, it could work.

[Sean Waters]

Re: Regenerative Shields

 

Another alternative is to take 'normal' defences and limit them. I have used Damage Negation here as it affects everything. This dude would be hard to hurt at first (I am assuming he has reasonable other defences too, say 15/15 PD/ED) but his defences rapidly go away: he is going to have to play pretty tactically to allow his defences to regenerate, which would only take a turn from the last damage he took.

 

Damage Negation (-6 DCs Physical, -6 DCs Energy) (60 Active Points);

Limited Power Power loses about a fourth of its effectiveness (When full DN is needed, the total DN is reduced by 1 for a turn; -1/4)

60 Active 48 Real

 

The SFX for this might be that he has a hard exoskeleton which breaks under attacks but rapidly re-forms. Or something.

[SteveZilla]

Re: Regenerative Shields

 

Well.....you may be right, BUT bear this in mind. the actual cost is 90 points because of the limitations that make the defence 'personal' so the cost, for comparison purposes, is more like 90. You have the equivalent of a 45/45 Resistant Protection. That is better, isn't it?

 

In some ways it is BUT it will still let some Stun through a 12d6 attack a little under half the time and quite a bit through if the attack is AP. Moreover the Barrier defence counteracts ADAV attacks.

 

What?

 

Well, it is a wall. If you are standing behind a wall, a NND attack will not ignore it and go through.

 

It also prevents Penetrating attacks from working as the damage hits the Wall not the person inside it.

 

That is the equivalent of having quite a few levels of hardened on the personal defence, which would bring the equivalent defence (working on say 2 levels, or +1/2) to 30/30: again very tough but nowhere near as tough as the Barrier defence.

 

Where does it say that Penetrating won't get though a non-hardened Barrier?

[Ice9]

Re: Regenerative Shields

 

As far as the limitations go, you could put nearly equal limitations on DN. For example:

Damage Negation (16 DCs physical and energy), Visible (-1/4), Limited Movement (-1/4), Shield (-1/4), 91 points

 

By Limited Movement, I mean the fact that Mobile only gives the Barrier a certain movement speed, so if you want to teleport or have someone faster carry you, it's not going to keep up. By Shield, I mean both the fact that it blocks tactile sensation and that it won't work against something that was already in your body when you activated it, like a poison dart.

 

And as DN, it does block most AVAD attacks that a non-opaque barrier would.

[Sean Waters]

Re: Regenerative Shields

 

Where does it say that Penetrating won't get though a non-hardened Barrier?

 

Well it does get through, but ONLY if the penetrating does BODY and even then it hits the BODY of the Barrier, not the thing it is protecting. It acts like a real wall - unless the idea of the 'Personal Defence' limitation was to remove that, in which case it is certainly worth -1/2. Your own Body/Stun are still protected, and you can renew the Body of the Barrier at any time, so, in practice, it is going to be really very difficult to whittle down the Body of the Barrier to the point where you actually get hurt.

 

That is the same reasoning why I say that you are protected from NND type attacks - they have to get through the Barrier before they get to you most attacks of that sort do not do BODY and so will not ever get through a Barrier.

[Sean Waters]

Re: Regenerative Shields

 

As far as the limitations go, you could put nearly equal limitations on DN. For example:

Damage Negation (16 DCs physical and energy), Visible (-1/4), Limited Movement (-1/4), Shield (-1/4), 91 points

 

By Limited Movement, I mean the fact that Mobile only gives the Barrier a certain movement speed, so if you want to teleport or have someone faster carry you, it's not going to keep up. By Shield, I mean both the fact that it blocks tactile sensation and that it won't work against something that was already in your body when you activated it, like a poison dart.

 

And as DN, it does block most AVAD attacks that a non-opaque barrier would.

 

I might insist that you do the movement thing with a lockout limitation on your movement powers (or parts of them). I'm not sure that lack of tactility is worth a limitation in itself (perhaps a Complication?), and I think all defences only work on 'new' attacks launched after activation.

 

Sorry, I obviously have my grumpy GM head on.

[Christopher]

Re: Regenerative Shields

 

The value of Touch Sense is not to be underestimated (6E2 9):

Normal touch is worth 10 Character Points

Loosing the sense of touch includes: -3 Penalty to Dex Skills, -3 to OCV in HTH-Combat (optionally also ranged) and other "dexterity based actions". The GM can use Mystery damage rules. I even consider Flashes against Touch a viable from of hindering the enemy.

Of course, not all ot this might apply here, especially if your weapon is "inside" the defense, you would still have normal touch sense against it.