Regenerative Shields

[CptPatriot]

I have a character with a "force field" purchased as a huge chunk of STUN along with Resistant Defenses. I would like to have the "force field" gain some STUN every phase however because of campaign restrictions, I cannot use any alternate rules, such as the Regeneration alternatives in the APG, and I would prefer not to bug my generous GM with rule queries, if I can avoid it.

 

I was thinking to use the Computer rules to have the computer have STUN & REC and let it 'take a recovery' as its action to recover STUN at the computer's SPD but I'm not 100% certain how I would write it up and what consequences there might be.

[Sean Waters]

Re: Regenerative Shields

 

Well, you could limit your recovery so that it did not all come back PS12 but over the course of the next turn: effectively the shields do not start regenerating until then following turn, but then regenerate every phase. In recompense that is a limitation so it costs slightly less.

[Sougen]

Re: Regenerative Shields

 

What you can do is buy an Aid power that is used to restore the shields. Have it work on a trigger or built to be constant, etc.

[Killer Shrike]

Re: Regenerative Shields

 

Self-resetting Trigger.

 

 

Keep in mind however that your character will likely be getting con stunned a lot if this is his main defense. You might be better off simply buying STUN only Damage Reduction.

[Xavier Onassiss]

Re: Regenerative Shields

 

Would this work?

 

+40 STUN (20 Active Points); Increased Endurance Cost (x4 END; -1 1/2), Costs Endurance (Only Costs END to Activate; -1/4)

 

PLUS

 

Endurance Reserve (8 END, 8 REC) Reserve: (8 Active Points); REC: (6 Active Points); Personal REC (-1/2)

 

Total cost: 13 Real Points (Hero Designer, HS6e)

 

 

I'm not 100% sure how "only costs End to activate" works with expendable characteristics like Stun, but what I intended to do with this build was to construct the power so that it would regain 5 Stun for each point of Recovery used. (Also not sure exactly how powerful the OP wants this to be: the numbers can be adjusted to suit, of course.) If this isn't quite right, then some variation on it will probably work; I'll leave it to the experts.

[SteveZilla]

Re: Regenerative Shields

 

I have a character with a "force field" purchased as a huge chunk of STUN along with Resistant Defenses. I would like to have the "force field" gain some STUN every phase however because of campaign restrictions, I cannot use any alternate rules, such as the Regeneration alternatives in the APG, and I would prefer not to bug my generous GM with rule queries, if I can avoid it.

 

I was thinking to use the Computer rules to have the computer have STUN & REC and let it 'take a recovery' as its action to recover STUN at the computer's SPD but I'm not 100% certain how I would write it up and what consequences there might be.

 

I mean no insult, but having a "second character" of a computer to always take recoveries feels (potentially very) munchkiny to me. Unless you have a very generous GM, I am doubtful that such a computer would pass muster. Then there is the matter of what requires an attack's STUN damage to come off of the "shield" first? And as someone else pointed out, the extra STUN doesn't protect the character from being CON-Stunned* as it is still his (or her) STUN.

 

*Though I realize you could also buy the Android Power "Takes No STUN", and limit it like "Only Up To Shield's STUN Value" and Linked as well. But that might affect the cost of your defenses in undesired ways.

 

At its heart, what "effect" (mechanically speaking) are you wishing to duplicate with this power? Something approaching nigh-invulnerability that can be "battered down"? Star Trek-like vehicle shields? A defense that is cheaper than one that protects all the time because it can be gotten through (with effort)?

[Christopher]

Re: Regenerative Shields

 

I thought about a similar design, makign a computer that gives you +X PD/ED, with Feedback (so the Computer takes the STUN).

Anohter option would be to use Damage Based Endurance Cost of PD (it's in one of the APG's, I think II) + an Endurance Reserve, but that won't be point effective.

 

if you want it to regenerate every phase, try buying REC equal to multiple of your SPD and ask your GM if you can "Pro-rate" the recovery.

Example:

SPD 5, Recovery 10. Instead of 10 at the Post Segment 12, 2 every turn.

 

But overall this is propably way to granulary for any game that isn't designed around Star Trek like shields.

[Ndreare]

Re: Regenerative Shields

 

Why not just link the stun and additional recovery to the shield. Give the recovery a "Shield Stun Only -1/4" limitation. What you are discribing sound no different from a endurance reserve really.

[SteveZilla]

Re: Regenerative Shields

 

Wouldn't that seem to give it similar properties of Barrier? As long as the shield's 'STUN' is positive, none gets though to the player, right? Maybe starting with Barrier as the base power might be a better approach?

[CptPatriot]

Re: Regenerative Shields

 

I didn't expect so many responses, so I'll try to answer each of these.

 

Well' date=' you could limit your recovery so that it did not all come back PS12 but over the course of the next turn: effectively the shields do not start regenerating until then following turn, but then regenerate every phase. In recompense that is a limitation so it costs slightly less.[/quote']

 

Well, if I can survive the initial turn's damage, perhaps. How much of a limitation would it be worth?

 

What you can do is buy an Aid power that is used to restore the shields.

 

Self-resetting Trigger. Keep in mind however that your character will likely be getting con stunned a lot if this is his main defense. You might be better off simply buying STUN only Damage Reduction.

------

+40 STUN (20 Active Points); Increased Endurance Cost (x4 END; -1 1/2), Costs Endurance (Only Costs END to Activate; -1/4) PLUS Endurance Reserve (8 END, 8 REC) Reserve: (8 Active Points); REC: (6 Active Points); Personal REC (-1/2)

 

Total cost: 13 Real Points (Hero Designer, HS6e)

 

I'm not 100% sure how "only costs End to activate" works with expendable characteristics like Stun, but what I intended to do with this build was to construct the power so that it would regain 5 Stun for each point of Recovery used. (Also not sure exactly how powerful the OP wants this to be: the numbers can be adjusted to suit, of course.) If this isn't quite right, then some variation on it will probably work; I'll leave it to the experts.

 

• Wouldn't I need to worry about maxing out my Aid power, Sougen?
  
• Yes, I did have added CON to avoid being stunned, Killer Shrike. DR is still a potential option.
  
• Xav, how would I recover the STUN I'm gaining to 'regenerate.'
  

I mean no insult, but having a "second character" of a computer to always take recoveries feels (potentially very) munchkiny to me. Unless you have a very generous GM, I am doubtful that such a computer would pass muster. Then there is the matter of what requires an attack's STUN damage to come off of the "shield" first? And as someone else pointed out, the extra STUN doesn't protect the character from being CON-Stunned* as it is still his (or her) STUN.

 

*Though I realize you could also buy the Android Power "Takes No STUN", and limit it like "Only Up To Shield's STUN Value" and Linked as well. But that might affect the cost of your defenses in undesired ways.

 

At its heart, what "effect" (mechanically speaking) are you wishing to duplicate with this power? Something approaching nigh-invulnerability that can be "battered down"? Star Trek-like vehicle shields? A defense that is cheaper than one that protects all the time because it can be gotten through (with effort)?

 

I was concerned that it might seem powergamerish.

I was trying to simulate a Champions Online(CO) power called Personal Force Field, which acts as you described where you have to beat down on it until it drops.

[SteveZilla]

Re: Regenerative Shields

 

You might take a look at Barrier as the base power then, IMO. Perhaps with a modified version of the Ablative Limitation, and some other power that works to restore (regenerate) it. An Adjustment power like Aid is naturally limited in how much it can restore -- that 'limitation' might be exactly in-concept, or it might be completely undesired.

[CptPatriot]

Re: Regenerative Shields

 

Why not just link the stun and additional recovery to the shield. Give the recovery a "Shield Stun Only -1/4" limitation. What you are discribing sound no different from a endurance reserve really.

True, but just buying STUN and REC as the 'force field' forces the character to take a phase to recover.

 

Wouldn't that seem to give it similar properties of Barrier? As long as the shield's 'STUN' is positive' date=' none gets though to the player, right? Maybe starting with Barrier as the base power might be a better approach?[/quote']

Hadn't thought to use Barrier, then again I neglected to mention the game was 5th Edition, but since there is talk about moving to the 6th Edition, I can still keep what is being said here to heart.

[CptPatriot]

Re: Regenerative Shields

 

You might take a look at Barrier as the base power then' date=' IMO. Perhaps with a modified version of the Ablative Limitation, and some other power that works to restore (regenerate) it. An Adjustment power like Aid is naturally limited in how much it can restore -- that 'limitation' might be exactly in-concept, or it might be completely undesired.[/quote']

I was just thinking, using Aid, it could also set up a mechanic where the 'Force Field' needs to be reset by turning off, especially since the Aid would only be used to bring the *FF to starting levels.

[SteveZilla]

Re: Regenerative Shields

 

I was just thinking' date=' using Aid, it could also set up a mechanic where the 'Force Field' needs to be reset by turning off, especially since the Aid would only be used to bring the *FF to starting levels.[/quote']

 

As a GM, I wouldn't let 'blipping' (quick off-on) the shield be all that is necessary to restore it to brand-spanking new, not without some sort of cooldown Limitation, because that would otherwise be a loophole allowing Aid to have an effect well beyond it's normal limits.

[Doc Democracy]

Re: Regenerative Shields

 

Hmm. I was thinking that if the forcefield is STUN then REC is the obvious feeder for that. If you want a slow feed of STUN each phase then I reckon that you need to buy more REC upfront with delayed effect on it. So that if you are SPD 5 and buy REC 20 then after the post segment 12 recovery, you get 4 STUN back on segment 3, 4 on segment 5 etc. You would limit the REC, "only for forcefield STUN" (removing the recovery of END would be worth +1/2 in my estimation) and "delayed effect" (I think it is all at the lowest level here). By taking an additional recovery in a normal phase you can boost the recovery for a turn to 8 STUN per phase. If you did not want to have the option of mid-turn recoveries then there would be an additional limitation, possibly another +1/4 to +1/2??

 

This seems a pretty straightforward use of limitations to service an already agreed set-up.

 

Doc

[Doc Democracy]

Re: Regenerative Shields

 

Well' date=' you could limit your recovery so that it did not all come back PS12 but over the course of the next turn: effectively the shields do not start regenerating until then following turn, but then regenerate every phase. In recompense that is a limitation so it costs slightly less.[/quote']

 

I completely missed this post and so replicated it in its entirety. Sorry Sean!

[Christopher]

Re: Regenerative Shields

 

I was trying to simulate a Champions Online(CO) power called Personal Force Field' date=' which acts as you described where you have to beat down on it until it drops.[/quote']

My best advice for such a think is: Don't bother.

Computer Game mechanics are always inferrior to P&P game mechanics. This is especially true if the Computer Game is based on the P&P-Rpg. In the real game you have some many way's to circumvent the Force Field (Chocke hold; other NND's; Dispel), or affect the target despite it (Garb, Trip, Disarm) and time to choose between either that you literally don't need to be able to wear it down.

 

As a GM' date=' I wouldn't let 'blipping' (quick off-on) the shield be all that is necessary to restore it to brand-spanking new, not without some sort of cooldown Limitation, because that would otherwise be a loophole allowing Aid to have an effect well beyond it's normal limits.[/quote']

The general rule is that you cannot enable and disable a power in the same Phase, even if it cost only a 0-Phase action to do either.

 

Note that healing could work instead of Aid. of course the maximum effect would have to be considered (so you need to buy it's tiem up).

 

There are of course many ways to build a Shield that is "breakign down" under fire and regenerate. But the way hero is conceived, each of them will give you a result much worser than if you just bought Resistant Protection (believe me, I went through those calculations) for the same cost.

Example using Damage based Endurance Cost (APG II) + Endurance Reserve:

DBEC is a -1/2 Limitation, that has "Cost Endurance to Activate" included in it's price.

10 rPD, 10 rED (30 AP), DBEC (-1/2), 20 Real. You save around 10 points relative to a normal, unlimited defense.

Now if you "invest" those points into a Endurance Reserve, Restricted Use (Only Shield, -1/4). You can get around 13 AP of Enduracne Reserve. You loose 1 END per 10 STUN (rounded up; not limited to the amount stopped) for every hit you recieve.

 

Another example (Ablative):

"A character can restore his Ablative Defenses to their starting values at the end of each adventure, or more frequently given the GM’s permission. This works just like Charges (6E1 367)." So, asuming you use the modifiers given at charges on ablative: "Recoverable Ablative" defense would be around 1/2 less Limitation than "normal" Ablative defense (so -0 or -1/2).

[Sean Waters]

Re: Regenerative Shields

 

Say something like this (6e version):

 

Force Field

+40 Stun (20 points) CAN ONLY USE 'Special REC' -0 Only vs damaging attacks, not Stun adjustment (-1/4), Not used to determine consciousness (-1/4) 13 Real points

+20 REC (20 points) Only to recover 'Force Field' STUN (-1*) Delayed recovery (REC spread through the turn) (-1/4) 9 real points

So you have a 22 point power that absorbs the first 40 points of STUN through defences (from ANY source) and that STUN Battery recovers at 20/SPD per phase (after the first PS 12**). You would not be able to rely on this as your only defence (just like you can not rely on Damage Negation as a sole defence), but it it pretty good as a damage buffer. If you wanted it as a sole defence then you would need to buy up the STUN quite a lot (at least 150 STUN***) and buy some extra CON limited so that the maximum value is the amount of STUN in the STUN Battery/Force Field (which is probably -1/4).

 

* This may seem a lot but bear in mind that it does not apply to END, BODY or the character's 'base' Stun.

** Combat starts on Segment 12, and if you are hit then the recovery starts on your first phase in the first full turn, if not you have to get through the first Turn, but an additional 40 STUN, assuming you also have some other defences, will really help AND this affects ANY damaging effect (except adjustment powers, but you could put that in too), however it is built.

*** I'm assuming a 12DC game which does 42 stun/attack on average: 150 stun allows you to survice 3 to 4 average hits, which is about right for a Superhero character.

[Sean Waters]

Re: Regenerative Shields

 

I completely missed this post and so replicated it in its entirety. Sorry Sean!

 

No worries: I think someone forged it under my name anyway. Bloody hackers.

[Sean Waters]

Re: Regenerative Shields

 

Also you might want to look at:

 

http://www.herogames.com/forums/showthread.php/51312-Damage-Conversion?highlight=battery

http://www.herogames.com/forums/showthread.php/72514-Regenerating-defences?highlight=defence

 

Sorry about them being 'me' posts: there are lots of other similar ideas from others (and often ideas I have are triggered by reading something someone has written anyway); it is just that I tend to remember stuff I've posted.

[Sean Waters]

Re: Regenerative Shields

 

So here is a complete 'Regenerating Shields' package. It is expensive: 241 points, but it covers both STUN (which actually 'only' costs 91 points AND BODY, which accounts for the rest. It would be much more efficient to buy defences against Body damage, with a little regeneration and define the thing as apparently taking damage but almost instantly getting better*.)

 

[TABLE]

[TR]

[TD]Damage Absorbtion Regenerating Shields [/TD]

[TD][/TD]

[/TR]

[TR]

[TD=align: right]53 [/TD]

[TD]1) +160 STUN (80 Active Points); Limited Power Power loses about a fourth of its effectiveness (Not against adjustment powers; -1/4), Limited Power Power loses about a fourth of its effectiveness (Does not affect consciousness; -1/4) [/TD]

[TD][/TD]

[/TR]

[TR]

[TD=align: right]18 [/TD]

[TD]2) +40 REC (40 Active Points); Limited Power Power loses about half of its effectiveness (Only to recover 'Shield' Stun; -1), Limited Power Power loses about a fourth of its effectiveness (Delayed recovery; -1/4) [/TD]

[TD][/TD]

[/TR]

[TR]

[TD=align: right]20 [/TD]

[TD]3) +30 CON (30 Active Points); Limited Power Power loses about a fourth of its effectiveness (Only to determine if Stunned; -1/4), Limited Power Power loses about a fourth of its effectiveness (Maximum effect = remaining Stun in Shield; -1/4) [/TD]

[TD][/TD]

[/TR]

[TR]

[TD=align: right]37 [/TD]

[TD]4) +56 BODY (56 Active Points); Limited Power Power loses about a fourth of its effectiveness (Not against adjustment powers; -1/4), Limited Power Power loses about a fourth of its effectiveness (Does not affect 'life'; -1/4) [/TD]

[TD][/TD]

[/TR]

[TR]

[TD=align: right]6 [/TD]

[TD]5) +10 REC (10 Active Points); Limited Power Power loses about a third of its effectiveness (Only to recover 'Shield' Stun and Body; -1/2), Limited Power Power loses about a fourth of its effectiveness (Delayed recovery; -1/4) [/TD]

[TD][/TD]

[/TR]

[TR]

[TD=align: right]107 [/TD]

[TD]6) Regeneration (10 BODY per Turn) (160 Active Points); Limited Power Power loses about a third of its effectiveness (Only to recover 'Shield' Body; -1/2) [/TD]

[/TR]

[/TABLE]

 

It is a pretty good way to do a 'Wolverine character (although W would need some regeneration that also applied to his base Body).

 

With even 'human normal; characteristics (say 15 CON, 5 PD and ED and 4 SPD) the character could stand up in a fight. Is it worth it? no, probably not. 'Straight' defences are almost always better value than enhanced recovery/regeneration, but if that is the concept you want to run with, it is certainly do-able.

 

 

 

*In fact, arguably, you could buy this type of shield as Damage Reduction at the 75% level and define the effect as heightened toughness and regeneration. Make the DR visible and it even looks like a force field and becomes cheaper. Never forget that what matters is not just how it works mechanically, but how it is perceived.)

[Doc Democracy]

Re: Regenerative Shields

 

Force Field

+40 Stun (20 points) CAN ONLY USE 'Special REC' -0 Only vs damaging attacks, not Stun adjustment (-1/4), Not used to determine consciousness (-1/4) 13 Real points

+20 REC (20 points) Only to recover 'Force Field' STUN (-1) Delayed recovery (REC spread through the turn) (-1/4) 9 real points

I am looking at the REC aspect of the power. Is this a post segment 12 recovery only or would it add up if you spent a phase recovering as well?

 

Doc

[Christopher]

Re: Regenerative Shields

 

Say something like this (6e version):

 

Force Field

+40 Stun (20 points) CAN ONLY USE 'Special REC' -0 Only vs damaging attacks, not Stun adjustment (-1/4), Not used to determine consciousness (-1/4) 13 Real points

+20 REC (20 points) Only to recover 'Force Field' STUN (-1*) Delayed recovery (REC spread through the turn) (-1/4) 9 real points

As I said earlier, point efficience works agaisnt such a build. For the 22 Real Cost You can get a 11 PD/11 PD (or 16/16, Cost Endurance or 11/11 resistant), that works against the Body of Normal Attacks and prevents you from being stunned/being knocked out.

 

Since it is "outside" of your defenses, the first 12 DC Normal Body attack will break it instantly, leavign you defenseless. Asuming a SPD of 5, the weakest attack that will bring it down in two phases (40+4 Recovery) is a 7 DC attack.

 

But I just noticed that STUN is normally on the "inside" of every defense (it's after DN, normal defense and DR), so it might still have room for a lot of Limitations.

[Doc Democracy]

Re: Regenerative Shields

 

Christopher's post just made me think of an advantage of using STUN for this kind of force field. I am presuming it remains inside the defences but it defends against all of the things that those defences do not usually protect against. It will soak up NND damage, it is not subject to armour piercing etc. So it could be quite an effective defence in a game where attacks veer to the exotic...

 

Doc

[Sean Waters]

Re: Regenerative Shields

 

As I said earlier, point efficience works agaisnt such a build. For the 22 Real Cost You can get a 11 PD/11 PD (or 16/16, Cost Endurance or 11/11 resistant), that works against the Body of Normal Attacks and prevents you from being stunned/being knocked out.

 

Since it is "outside" of your defenses, the first 12 DC Normal Body attack will break it instantly, leavign you defenseless. Asuming a SPD of 5, the weakest attack that will bring it down in two phases (40+4 Recovery) is a 7 DC attack.

 

But I just noticed that STUN is normally on the "inside" of every defense (it's after DN, normal defense and DR), so it might still have room for a lot of Limitations.

 

It is not limited to being outside your defences (unless there is a rule that says such characteristic buys have to be which I have missed), it is between your defences and your personal STUN/BODY. That is the way I see it working, even if it is a force field type thing. As you say if it IS outside then it would be cheaper as you could stick on at least an additional -1/2.

 

The advantage of this sort of 'defence' is that it works against AVAD, Penetrating and all the other stuff that normally foils defences. Stun works against everything.