How do you handle Moments of Mastery/ Dramatic Comebacks?

[Querysphinx]

My favorite moments in books, films, and stories of all sorts, are moments of mastery (where the protagonist in the midst of peril finally has his or her abilities all come together in a whole that is greater than the sum of the parts) and the Dramatic Comeback, where the hero had been beaten to death's door (metaphorically; any great loss will do) but somehow finds the wherewithal to come roaring back into the fight. I find, however, that such moments as these are very difficult to arrange in role-playing games. The mechanics of games are not as a whole designed to accommodate them. Sometimes, through a lucky series of dice rolls one will get a comeback, but as a dramatic construct conceived of beforehand as part of a story arc, they have an unfortunate tendency to fall victim to bad dice roles. It would be like the chase down the Death Star trench in the real Star Wars movie went the wrong way because either Han or Luke rolled an 18 or because Vader rolled a 3.

 

So do you, as a GM or a player, ever just set the dice aside and let the moment live on its own, or do you consider the arbitration of the dice to be a feature rather than a bug, do you have some other way of handling it, or do you consider roleplaying to be a dry tactical simulation with no place fore drama?

 

FWIW as GM, there are times I find roleplaying so perfect for the moment (even in dice-driven moments like combat) that the story trumps the dice. The needs of the drama outweigh the arbitrary fairness of the dice, but I'm interested in hearing other people's opinions about this aspect of storytelling in RPG's

[AmadanNaBriona]

Re: How do you handle Moments of Mastery/ Dramatic Comebacks?

 

As a freely admitted Genre Fiend, I can understand where you're coming from.

 

the kind of narrative events you describe imply a need for a narrativist mechanism to enable them.

You could implement an on-the-spot, use-it-or-lose-it HeroPoint reward system for Roleplaying or excellent play, right off the top of my head

[Christopher]

Re: How do you handle Moments of Mastery/ Dramatic Comebacks?

 

I had thoughts about this as well. If I am going to GM, I will propably do this:

Just allow the player to temporarily use a sheet that is more powerfull. Basically just take the current point total, multiply it by 125% or 150%*. The player can use this total to make a totally new Form, add powers or just upgrade his powers with these points. After the battle is over, he just returns to "normal".

 

These "Momens of Power" can happen in the followign situations:

- Story driven. It can be the radiation accident that "enables"/"unleashes" the use of a new power. Or it's a story about the hero. That simply requires a enemy too powerfull for the normal team, but so weak that he falls to the hero with his powerup (400 to 500 or 600 should be good powerup).

- At the players hand. They can do this once every X sessions (with the value of X being the balacing factor). But only if the World depends on it and the team as whole has alrady failed. This is bascially a fallback "the heroes always win" plan - if the dice roll so bad that the villain seemingly wins, one hero suddenly has a second wind and beat him almost singlehandedly. It's npt to stop the average theft of "plot device Nr. 1423" that builds up to the final fight.

- To make a single foe a worthy opponent: Yes, villains can use that upgrade too. Usually it works for an entire story and makes 400 point Ogre a fitting adversary for an entire superteam. This can be a temporal magical/chemical/superscience powerup (see the Comic in Champiosn 6E for an example) or just simply "Conservation of Ninjutsu", because he is allone agaisnt the team.

- the hero is the Villian: Either because he is mind Controlled or temporarily transformed into a monster. Or perhaps lex Luthor switched minds with Flash. The "upgrade" helps him to battle the entire team.

 

 

*How much exaclty, might depends on the possible downsides. You can get 125% without downsides, but the 150% either has an off switch (this easily destroyed talisman for Villains) or a downside (your hero could go mad/berserk because of it, making him the final boss).

 

 

Examples I know of...

...from the Justice League Cartoon:

Supermans "world of cardstock" speech

 

For the 150% with Downsides (he almost vanished), Flash beats the Braniac/Luthor Fusion:

 

Green Lantern John Steward, when he beats the Manhunters (it's a "Character-epsiode" example)

 

The aformentioned "Lex Luthor switches minds with Flash", wich made up an entire epsiode (or was it even two?).

 

Teen Titans:

How Raven beat Trigon

How Cyborg beat Brother Blood (even lampshading my idea: "Are you now magic?" "No, I think that was a one time thing, [super science babble explanation]").

How Beast Boy got his "not an animal form" (in part it was "he is the villain")

How Robin/Terra's tenure as Slades Apprentice ended (with a 150%/downside version for Terra).

Simply put, every season finale except the 5th and often on the end of 2 or 3 parters/character epsidoes.

 

 

 

Other Cartoons:

The Final of "Green Lantern first flight" has Hal Jordan become Ion, to Battle sinestro and his Power battery.

 

Dragon Ball:

That his how the good guys always win the fight. Basically the entire story is just to build up for the "Goku get's his powerup moment" by showing just HOW hopeless it is...

 

Bleach:

In what fight do they used this not?

 

New He-Man Cartoon:

How Cyclops had a 150% version, with his self-replcaiting monsters (summon with a really high max, and a trigger; bought on a focus)

We had multiple powerups: Skeletor usign Ambrosia. Skeletor and He-Man getting those armors and finding Sy-Klone

[Querysphinx]

Re: How do you handle Moments of Mastery/ Dramatic Comebacks?

 

The World of Carboard speech is a good example. There's the end of the original Highlander movie, where McCloud is losing his fight with the Kurgan until his girlfriend interferes and then when the Kurgan attacks her Conner find his center and it's ON. Really it happened at the end of many, many stories when that last-chance shot simple can't miss.

 

I want to say that I don't let the dice arbitrate those situations, but my response to the needs of the moment is not exactly codified. Sometimes it'll be: Don't bother rolling, the villain falls for the trick, or don't bother rolling that's a hit for maximum damage. Sometimes it will be more excessive than that.

 

On the other hand, I have a whole menu of meta-powers that that players can buy that facilitate moments like these. Powers like Limit Break (an AID that boosts major stats triggered by dramatically appropriate circumstances), Heroic Recovery (A triggered healing power that goes off when the character is KOed.), and Moment of Mastery (which increase SPD and CV, triggered by dramatically appropriate circumstances). I think including powers like these tends to encourage play that brings them to bear.

 

It's always a balancing act between mechanics and stories, but doing that balancing act is part of the fun/challenge of being GM.

[Christopher]

Re: How do you handle Moments of Mastery/ Dramatic Comebacks?

 

I want to say that I don't let the dice arbitrate those situations' date=' but my response to the needs of the moment is not exactly codified. Sometimes it'll be: Don't bother rolling, the villain falls for the trick, or don't bother rolling that's a hit for maximum damage. Sometimes it will be more excessive than that.[/quote']

I would definitely not like that. Because it means that I win because the GM decided it. And a Railroad plot (even one that let's me win), is a plot that does not needs me as a player - it needs my character and the GM.*

 

My approach gives the heroes a good chance, but they could still loose.

 

 

*the trick seems to be, to give the players meaningfull decisions. See the first part of this article: http://www.projectrho.com/rpg/cidiagram.html

[Querysphinx]

Re: How do you handle Moments of Mastery/ Dramatic Comebacks?

 

I would definitely not like that. Because it means that I win because the GM decided it. And a Railroad plot (even one that let's me win), is a plot that does not needs me as a player - it needs my character and the GM.*

 

My approach gives the heroes a good chance, but they could still loose.

 

 

*the trick seems to be, to give the players meaningfull decisions. See the first part of this article: http://www.projectrho.com/rpg/cidiagram.html

 

Interesting. Because I see those moments as being reward for roleplaying above and beyond the call of duty. It's the reward for player effort rather than a negation of it. You the player have put thought and emotion into the project. You've set up the plan, you've made the personal sacrifices, you've taken the hits, you've initiated the bold and clever maneuver, you deliver the stirring soliloquy... and then you fall flat on your face because the dice said so. And if the GM is being honest, you die and the bad guys parade your head on a pike down main street.

 

Perhaps this is because dice hate me and never fail to bungle those moments.

 

Interesting article by the way. I wrote a similar one many moons ago.

[Christopher]

Re: How do you handle Moments of Mastery/ Dramatic Comebacks?

 

Perhaps it's just that I prefer the objective call of the dice over the subjective judgement call of a GM.

 

Sometimes it's the "I missed" moment that makes for the greates roleplaying. And those moment is something a GM has a hard time to give you, without looking like a setup/decidedly unfair decision (wich would produce antagonism, rather than imersion).

[Querysphinx]

Re: How do you handle Moments of Mastery/ Dramatic Comebacks?

 

Perhaps it's just that I prefer the objective call of the dice over the subjective judgement call of a GM.

 

Sometimes it's the "I missed" moment that makes for the greates roleplaying. And those moment is something a GM has a hard time to give you, without looking like a setup/decidedly unfair decision (wich would produce antagonism, rather than imersion).

 

I grant you the benefit of different experiences. Every time that's happened to me, the GM's next (and usually the only logical) line is, "Okay, you die."

[Balabanto]

Re: How do you handle Moments of Mastery/ Dramatic Comebacks?

 

I let the dice fall where they may. My games are based around superhero teams rather than individuals, and are far more "Mighty Heroes United as a Team" (Avengers) than "World's seven most powerful individuals." (Justice League)

 

It's okay to lose. That's part of the genre, too. We've lost sight of that over the years.

[MisterVimes]

Re: How do you handle Moments of Mastery/ Dramatic Comebacks?

 

In the cases cited above (I still get choked up when Wally gets pulled back from the Speed Force), it appears that the hero digs down deep, comes up with a plan, and pushes his power to the limits. We have a mechanic for that and when that cinematic moment comes, it usually works out. When it doesn't, then it's time to retreat, have a radiation accident/training montage/flashback to the sensei and when they win on the next go-around, the hero can smile and say "Not this time."

[Christopher]

Re: How do you handle Moments of Mastery/ Dramatic Comebacks?

 

I grant you the benefit of different experiences. Every time that's happened to me' date=' the GM's next (and usually the only logical) line is, "Okay, you die."[/quote']

Character death in superheroic? Sorry, but that makes no sense at all. When the hero is beaten despite his powerup, the villain usually takes his time to gloat (see Superman/Darkseid fight). Wich might just mean the "Deus ex machina" or another hero in pwoer mode pops up.

 

In the cases cited above (I still get choked up when Wally gets pulled back from the Speed Force)' date=' it appears that the hero digs down deep, comes up with a plan, and pushes his power to the limits. We have a mechanic for that and when that cinematic moment comes, it usually works out. When it doesn't, then it's time to retreat, have a radiation accident/training montage/flashback to the sensei and when they win on the next go-around, the hero can smile and say "Not this time."[/quote']

Pushing works for abilities like Superstrenght. But to work in game the addition of powers or advantages has to be posssible.

[Ockham's Spoon]

Re: How do you handle Moments of Mastery/ Dramatic Comebacks?

 

I would say it is situational and depends on the genre too. I have never tossed the dice out altogether, but I have been known to let heroes reroll if they really botch it, or to say that the villain goes down with the last ditch effort from the hero even though by the numbers he is still alive and kicking. But those exceptions are really for the climatic battle when it is either the heroes win or the world is destroyed kind of moments.

 

One way to implement the Dramatic Comeback trick is with some Item Of Power. If the villain has the IOP, then the heroes win by disarming him to make the fight fair. Or the heroes manage to acquire the IOP so that it can be used against otherwise insurmountable odds and defeat the villain. Generallly the IOP only has limited uses so that the heroes don't become unstoppable, or it has some nasty side effects so the heroes won't use it except in dire circumstances.

[DreadDomain]

Re: How do you handle Moments of Mastery/ Dramatic Comebacks?

 

My favorite moments in books' date=' films, and stories of all sorts, are moments of mastery (where the protagonist in the midst of peril finally has his or her abilities all come together in a whole that is greater than the sum of the parts) and the Dramatic Comeback, where the hero had been beaten to death's door (metaphorically; any great loss will do) but somehow finds the wherewithal to come roaring back into the fight. I find, however, that such moments as these are very difficult to arrange in role-playing games. The mechanics of games are not as a whole designed to accommodate them. Sometimes, through a lucky series of dice rolls one will get a comeback, but as a dramatic construct conceived of beforehand as part of a story arc, they have an unfortunate tendency to fall victim to bad dice roles. It would be like the chase down the Death Star trench in the real Star Wars movie went the wrong way because either Han or Luke rolled an 18 or because Vader rolled a 3. [/quote']

 

Aside from a player buying a "Second Wind" kind of power to his character (might be END Reserve, Recovery, Powers, etc only accessible when a certain threshold say for STUN and/or BODY is reached), HERO has at least three different set of rules for this :

 

• Pushing to give you the extra ooomph when you need it. Adding the extensive use of Pushing (APGII p.68) can really get you somewhere... at a price.
  
• The Power Skill to give more flexibility to your powers and simulate that power coming from nowhere in dire situation (APG p.39).
  
• Heroic Action Points (6EII p. 287) to spend on rols when the dice fail you or to alter the story in meaningful and interesting ways.
  

 

So do you' date=' as a GM or a player, ever just set the dice aside and let the moment live on its own, or do you consider the arbitration of the dice to be a feature rather than a bug, do you have some other way of handling it, or do you consider roleplaying to be a dry tactical simulation with no place fore drama?[/quote']

 

It happens that I roll the bones behind the screen more for the sound they make then the result they give. I roll them because they might bring the story somewhere unexpected, and I am always grateful for that, but I won't let them ruin it.

[Zen Archer]

Re: How do you handle Moments of Mastery/ Dramatic Comebacks?

 

So do you, as a GM or a player, ever just set the dice aside and let the moment live on its own, or do you consider the arbitration of the dice to be a feature rather than a bug, do you have some other way of handling it, or do you consider roleplaying to be a dry tactical simulation with no place fore drama?

 

It depends on the situation, and often the game being played as well.

 

On the rare occasions I GMed Champions and D&D, I mostly let the dice determine things. But if the players were smart, I added bonuses to their chances if I thought it appropriate or it contributed to a cool moment (though I never mentioned such). In my Call of Cthulhu games, the players knew they were in for a slow march to insanity and death, so I cut them a lot of breaks (also without mentioning it) also based on the moment.