Titanoboa

[Ninja-Bear]

Re: Titanoboa

 

If you don't have the APG' date=' yes. But the APG Suffocation works just like drowning -- no recoveries, STUN damage until unconsciousness, then BODY damage. This better simulates the slow death via constriction. With an AVAD/NND HKA, it'll be over a lot faster (which works for a "Hollywood" snake, I guess.)[/quote']

 

Thanks, I was wondering if it was an APG thing. Also, how about drain PD linked to STR? To represent that as the snake as you brethe, the snake constricts around you.

[Christopher]

Re: Titanoboa

 

Thanks' date=' I was wondering if it was an APG thing. Also, how about drain PD linked to STR? To represent that as the snake as you brethe, the snake constricts around you.[/quote']

Why would that lower your ability to withstand a punch?

 

I think most of the constrictor snakes power is diverted towards just holding it's prey, so it has time to kill it. It doesn't needs much to do that.

[Susano]

Re: Titanoboa

 

Thanks' date=' I was wondering if it was an APG thing. Also, how about drain PD linked to STR? To represent that as the snake as you brethe, the snake constricts around you.[/quote']

 

I state it's an APG power in the notes under Powers and Tactics. And I don't think a Drain PD makes much sense. Maybe CON or END (to indicate diminishing energy reserves.)

[Hugh Neilson]

Re: Titanoboa

 

If I read Susano's comments correctly, he wants a big snake that, if it gets the drop on you and you're stuck in its coils, death will come pretty quickly. If this thing gets the drop on any heroic character, or many Supers, they better have friends to hack it apart or they're snake chow. If they do have friends, it's tough enough, and inflicts damage quickly enough, that there's still going to be some tension over whether it can be taken out quickly enough to save the target (although I suspect most constrictors, faced with serous resistance, would flee rather than fight - but not so many fantasy monsters). So I'd say mission accomplished.

 

The only question I would have is whether you want it to be a real threat to a team of heroes, or a single hero not caught unawares. It probably doesn't meet that criteria, primarily due to its low OCV, but there's still the risk of a lucky shot (which, for a solo hero, is still probably a death sentence). As a sign that there is much danger here, especially for the unwary or the loner, it more than serves its purpose.

 

Looking at Post 1 again (mainly to rep), the Constrictor bites first to establish a hold, then Grapples. That's really not a great tactic under the Hero mechanics, is it? What if the Bite were Constant (once he clamps down, he can keep chewing) and he received a significant OCV bonus to Grapple if he hits with the bite (so that's the benefit of "bite first", even if the target has enough defense to render the KA meaningless)?

[Susano]

Re: Titanoboa

 

If I read Susano's comments correctly, he wants a big snake that, if it gets the drop on you and you're stuck in its coils, death will come pretty quickly. If this thing gets the drop on any heroic character, or many Supers, they better have friends to hack it apart or they're snake chow. If they do have friends, it's tough enough, and inflicts damage quickly enough, that there's still going to be some tension over whether it can be taken out quickly enough to save the target (although I suspect most constrictors, faced with serous resistance, would flee rather than fight - but not so many fantasy monsters). So I'd say mission accomplished.

 

The only question I would have is whether you want it to be a real threat to a team of heroes, or a single hero not caught unawares. It probably doesn't meet that criteria, primarily due to its low OCV, but there's still the risk of a lucky shot (which, for a solo hero, is still probably a death sentence). As a sign that there is much danger here, especially for the unwary or the loner, it more than serves its purpose.

 

Looking at Post 1 again (mainly to rep), the Constrictor bites first to establish a hold, then Grapples. That's really not a great tactic under the Hero mechanics, is it? What if the Bite were Constant (once he clamps down, he can keep chewing) and he received a significant OCV bonus to Grapple if he hits with the bite (so that's the benefit of "bite first", even if the target has enough defense to render the KA meaningless)?

 

You can Grab with a Bite, reducing the target's DCV for the follow up coils-based Grab (and I believe the HSB allows the snake to do HKA damage while biting and Grabbing). Also, said Grab with a Bite means the target not going to run away. While not an "effective" HERO tactic, it's how such snakes really work. And, for what it's worth, I was trying to model the real animal, not a fantasy giant snake (although at 48', it's as big as many fantasy giant snakes).

[Ninja-Bear]

Re: Titanoboa

 

I do see King Cobra stealing the fossilized remains for his neferious purposes.

[Brother Jim]

Re: Titanoboa

 

I saw a show on the Nat Geo channel called "Super Snake" that might have useful info for you.

It wasn't about Titanoboa, but about anacondas and pythons, but had info on how they kill.

[Ninja-Bear]

Re: Titanoboa

 

Why would that lower your ability to withstand a punch?

 

I think most of the constrictor snakes power is diverted towards just holding it's prey, so it has time to kill it. It doesn't needs much to do that.

With the drain I was thinking that each phase, i t would make damage easier to get through to represent

The constricting. And about taking a punch-have you never enjoyed bruised ribs? Where it hurts just to breathe?

[Midas]

Re: Titanoboa

 

How about supress vs REC?

[Susano]

Re: Titanoboa

 

How about supress vs REC?

 

As written, with the Suffocation Change Environment, you don't get REC.

[Sean Waters]

Re: Titanoboa

 

A couple of thoughts:

 

1. Squeezing so you can not breathe is a bit like holding your breath, the difference being that when you hold your breath, you have a store of air and so can last some time. I can not recall exactly how it works in Hero, but I think you get CON phases before you start taking damage - something like that - if you are hit with a choke hold or squeeze, you are likely to have less air to start with. Also a choke hold may well cut or reduce blood flow to the brain. Certainly judo chokes work by rolling the muscle away from your jugular and cutting off blood flow which can result in unconsciousness within 4 or 5 seconds and death within half a minute. I assume in Hero if you choke hold someone to unconsciousness, maintaining the hold to finish them off would use the coup de grâce rule.

 

2. Very strong characters could possibly breathe despite the squeeze, so perhaps the Suffocation should have a limitation: requires STR v STR roll?

 

3. 48 STR is a lot but you 'only' need 10 pd to largely ignore the Body damage: that is possible even for heroic characters, HOWEVER, most 'real' armour is not designed to prevent squeeze damage so may be ineffective. Tougher characters would still be suffocated, but it would take much longer, which may be fine.

[Sean Waters]

Re: Titanoboa

 

In fact, there is no reason that the snake can not perform a coup de grâce once it has the target unconscious and helpless, which would make the whole 'killing' process a lot quicker as even superheroic level characters would be taking significant STUN from 48 STR (well many of them would anyway). 48 STR averages about 33 Stun, so a heroic character with even 20 pd (which is pretty damn high IME for a heroic character) would be unconscious in 3 or 4 phases as they are not getting recoveries.

 

Also, thinking about it, the 'RSR on suffocation' is not necessary as it only applies when the grab is on and the grab can be escaped with a STR v STR anyway.

 

Thinking again, that is not QUITE right. To escape a grab you need to exceed the Body total of the grab, whereas to avoid RSR suffocation, the snake needs to beat the STR of the victim, so there is an overlap point where the victim could remain in the grab but avoid suffocation for that phase (and if that is a segment 12, possibly get a breath and a recovery).

[Hugh Neilson]

Re: Titanoboa

 

Sean, in addition to that average roll, I think the last writeup applied Penetrating to STR, so even if you have a 35 PD, 9.5 STUN slips through on average. Even most Supers will fall fairly rapidly to that - if you can't break free, and you don't have Impenetrable defenses, it's only a question of how long.

[Susano]

Re: Titanoboa

 

A couple of thoughts:

 

1. Squeezing so you can not breathe is a bit like holding your breath, the difference being that when you hold your breath, you have a store of air and so can last some time. I can not recall exactly how it works in Hero, but I think you get CON phases before you start taking damage - something like that - if you are hit with a choke hold or squeeze, you are likely to have less air to start with. Also a choke hold may well cut or reduce blood flow to the brain. Certainly judo chokes work by rolling the muscle away from your jugular and cutting off blood flow which can result in unconsciousness within 4 or 5 seconds and death within half a minute. I assume in Hero if you choke hold someone to unconsciousness, maintaining the hold to finish them off would use the coup de grâce rule.

 

It works like Drowning. You don't get REC and run out of END, then STUN, then BODY. See 6E2 130.

 

2. Very strong characters could possibly breathe despite the squeeze' date=' so perhaps the Suffocation should have a limitation: requires STR v STR roll?[/quote']

 

This would be (IMO) a -0 Limitation. In a Pulp game it'd never come up. In a Fantasy or Supers game, sure. One issue to consider is that even if an elephant as a STR of (say) 50, the snake would never attack it and thus the elephant's STR score is moot. The same goes for a Fantasy game. Sure, you might be a 45 STR giant, but unless you attack the snake, it's not going to try and eat you (although it might bite to defend itself.) That said, if you use the snake in a Supers game, where normal-sized people can have STR scores in excess of 48, then it might be an issue and a GM should consider it.

 

3. 48 STR is a lot but you 'only' need 10 pd to largely ignore the Body damage: that is possible even for heroic characters, HOWEVER, most 'real' armour is not designed to prevent squeeze damage so may be ineffective. Tougher characters would still be suffocated, but it would take much longer, which may be fine.

 

I gave the snake Penetrating on its STR, since the snake needs to kill 15 foot, 1,000 pound crocodiles. It also has the Suffocation power from APG1 to allow it to actually kill something it's knocked out.

[Susano]

Re: Titanoboa

 

In fact, there is no reason that the snake can not perform a coup de grâce once it has the target unconscious and helpless, which would make the whole 'killing' process a lot quicker as even superheroic level characters would be taking significant STUN from 48 STR (well many of them would anyway). 48 STR averages about 33 Stun, so a heroic character with even 20 pd (which is pretty damn high IME for a heroic character) would be unconscious in 3 or 4 phases as they are not getting recoveries.

 

Also, thinking about it, the 'RSR on suffocation' is not necessary as it only applies when the grab is on and the grab can be escaped with a STR v STR anyway.

 

Thinking again, that is not QUITE right. To escape a grab you need to exceed the Body total of the grab, whereas to avoid RSR suffocation, the snake needs to beat the STR of the victim, so there is an overlap point where the victim could remain in the grab but avoid suffocation for that phase (and if that is a segment 12, possibly get a breath and a recovery).

 

The snake has animal intelligence, so IMO it won't perform a coup de grâce. Modern snakes continue to construct for some time, to ensure death has set in.

[Christopher]

Re: Titanoboa

 

The snake has animal intelligence' date=' so IMO it won't perform a coup de grâce. Modern snakes continue to construct for some time, to ensure death has set in.[/quote']

You don't need intelligence to use a Combat Maneuver.

[Hugh Neilson]

Re: Titanoboa

 

To the STR vs STR issue, if you break the grab the snake stops suffocating you, so STR already has a significant impact. If you can't break the grab, how will you succeed in a STR vs STR contest to avoid suffocation?

 

To the "coup de grace", it does that - it continues squeezing until it knows with certainty that you are dead.

[Sean Waters]

Re: Titanoboa

 

I might argue that the coup de grâce does not require any particular intelligence, just a determination to continue squeezing once the target goes limp. Bear in mind that most of the resistance to damage will in fact be from using your strength to resist the squeeze (even though we actually use pd) and when you are unconscious you go limp and stop resisting, so all it is doing at that point is squeezing flesh and bone: the muscle has all gone non-resistive.

 

That would allow you to have the snake kill targets rapidly, even without having to add 'penetrating': 48 STR does enough Stun to render almost any grabbed character unconscious in a turn or so. Even superheroic characters would not last much longer (24 pd and 50 Stun would still only take 6 phases to KO, assuming no recoveries) Once they are unconscious, resistance effectively crumbles and the target is rapidly crushed to death.

 

Do you know I can not find the c-d-g rule in 6e. Is it gone, or just called something else?

 

It is a matter of style though: personally I do not like 'penetrating' as an advantage as I can never really make it make sense, whereas you may not like c-d-g.

[Susano]

Re: Titanoboa

 

You don't need intelligence to use a Combat Maneuver.

 

Actually, per page 37 of the HSB, there are some Combat Maneuvers animals normally shouldn't be allowed to use, since they are too complex or sophisticated. It doesn't mention coup de grâce because that's an optional rule for killing helpless opponents, it's not a Combat Maneuver. That said, constrictors, AFAIK, don't "coup de grâce" something in their coils. They have no idea of knowing when their victim has passed out, and want to ensure their target is dead and not going to suddenly wake up and run away once they drop their coils and get ready to eat. Sure, you could have your giant snake do such a thing in your game, but I think you're making your snake more combat savvy than a real animal.

[Sean Waters]

Re: Titanoboa

 

...and I probably should have argued that more quickly

[Sean Waters]

Re: Titanoboa

 

I think cdg is simply deliberately trying to kill a helpless opponent, and I do not think it requires intelligence or savvy, in fact, with something like a constrictor it is a hardwired instinct. Presumably a constrictor WILL know when a target is unconscious as it stops struggling and resisting and will also have some way of knowing when it is dead - perhaps it smells the blood from the ruptured organs. Otherwise it would squeeze forever. Animal intelligence can have some apparently very sophisticated results (if you look at the pack hunting instinct of wolves, for example), that are simply instinctual responses that LOOK like intelligence, but actually require no real reasoning.

 

Mind you, it is your snake

[Susano]

Re: Titanoboa

 

Do you know I can not find the c-d-g rule in 6e. Is it gone' date=' or just called something else?[/quote']

 

6E2, page 106. Bottom of the 1st column. Note that technically, the snake might not have the "sufficiently powerful attack" needed to simply kill its foe. I'd also argue that at this point, most targets are dead in a Turn or so (12-24 seconds) so using this rule's kind of a moot point from a real world standard.

 

It is a matter of style though: personally I do not like 'penetrating' as an advantage as I can never really make it make sense' date=' whereas you may not like c-d-g.[/quote']

 

Then don't use the Penetrating. I'm pretty sure the character states the combination might be overkill, but was made to cover all bases. It's like the Cold-Blooded Phys Comp, it's there for completeness sake.

[Susano]

Re: Titanoboa

 

I think cdg is simply deliberately trying to kill a helpless opponent, and I do not think it requires intelligence or savvy, in fact, with something like a constrictor it is a hardwired instinct. Presumably a constrictor WILL know when a target is unconscious as it stops struggling and resisting and will also have some way of knowing when it is dead - perhaps it smells the blood from the ruptured organs. Otherwise it would squeeze forever. Animal intelligence can have some apparently very sophisticated results (if you look at the pack hunting instinct of wolves, for example), that are simply instinctual responses that LOOK like intelligence, but actually require no real reasoning.

 

Mind you, it is your snake

 

Having just read some material on constrictors I'll point out a few things -- they only eat a few times a year, so they can afford to wait. Also, they let go based on (apparently) motion and breathing. They just hold and tighten until pretty much all motion has stopped. It might be heartbeat (or the stoppage there of) that triggers the release of coils (actually, that might be it) or a complete lack of resistance and a limp body.

[Sean Waters]

Re: Titanoboa

 

Unless I am missing something (often a problem...) adding 'penetrating' is not helping the problem much: it allows STUN damage to get through most defences, but does not increase the killi-ness of the squeeze. You specifically can not apply 'penetrating' to teh Body or normal attacks. In fact, unless you have more than 23 PD, you would be taking more STUN than the penetrating damage adds anyway, and that is unlikely except in superheroic genres , and in that sort of genre they can probably scag the snake anyway.

 

It still leaves the problem that, for anyone with 10 or more pd you are going to have to rely on suffocation to kill, which is going to take a lot more than a couple of turns.

 

It might be easier to just buy the additional 28 STR for maintaining the grab only and build a separate 1 pip AVAD (or, if you must, penetrating...) killing attack, if you want to kill with celerity.

[Christopher]

Re: Titanoboa

 

Having just read some material on constrictors I'll point out a few things -- they only eat a few times a year' date=' so they can afford to wait. Also, they let go based on (apparently) motion and breathing. They just hold and tighten until pretty much all motion has stopped. It might be heartbeat (or the stoppage there of) that triggers the release of coils (actually, that might be it) or a complete lack of resistance and a limp body.[/quote']

Considering how the feel vibrations, the heartbeat sounds like the simplest gauge for livingness.