MisterVimes Posted April 24, 2012 Author Report Share Posted April 24, 2012 Re: The Power to cloud men's minds But since Mister Vimes seems to want to stay as close to the standard HERO way of doing things as possible' date=' I thought a direct transposition might appeal to him.[/quote'] I find the alternative leads to madness and (worse) exceptions. The exceptions come at night and eat your toes. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lord Liaden Posted April 24, 2012 Report Share Posted April 24, 2012 Re: The Power to cloud men's minds How about this build? [TABLE=width: 1024] [TR] [TD]Cost [/TD] [TD]POWERS [/TD] [TD]END [/TD] [/TR] [TR] [TD=align: right]18 [/TD] [TD]Cloud the Minds of Men: Invisibility to Sight and Hearing Groups , Costs Endurance Only To Activate (+1/4) (31 Active Points); Only Works Against Sentient Persons Character Is Aware Of (-1/2), Not effective against targets with Mental Defence of 10 or higher Power does not work in Uncommon Circumstances (-1/4), EGO replaces INT for perception rolls. (-0) [/TD] [TD=align: right]2 [/TD] [/TR] [/TABLE] or (since the Shadow's power affected all minds around him) [TABLE=width: 1024] [TR] [TD]Cost [/TD] [TD]POWERS [/TD] [TD]END [/TD] [/TR] [TR] [TD=align: right]25 [/TD] [TD]Cloud the Minds of Men: Invisibility to Sight and Hearing Groups , Costs Endurance Only To Activate (+1/4) (31 Active Points); Not effective against targets with Mental Defence of 10 or higher Power does not work in Uncommon Circumstances (-1/4), EGO replaces INT for perception rolls. (-0) [/TD] [TD=align: right]2 [/TD] [/TR] [/TABLE] No criticism intended, but I just want to point out that defining a set amount of Mental Defense as a cut-off point beyond which the Power doesn't work at all means that less than 10 MD are "wasted" points versus this effect. This approach also defines two types of "strong mind" with different mechanics for each, those with MD and those without. System-mechanically I see nothing wrong with either build, and if they work for you that's what you should go with. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Christopher Posted April 24, 2012 Report Share Posted April 24, 2012 Re: The Power to cloud men's minds No criticism intended' date=' but I just want to point out that defining a set amount of Mental Defense as a cut-off point beyond which the Power doesn't work at all means that less than 10 MD are "wasted" points versus this effect. This approach also defines two types of "strong mind" with different mechanics for each, those with MD and those without.[/quote'] This is especially relevant as 10 Mental Defense means it doesn't works on close (2m) and long ranges (100m or more). It simply does not work at all against those people. Without bright Fringe the EGo roll only happens if he get's within 2 Meters of the target. taht could be intentional (taht much mental defense means they are immune agaisnt this "subliminal" technique). Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MisterVimes Posted April 24, 2012 Author Report Share Posted April 24, 2012 Re: The Power to cloud men's minds No criticism intended, but I just want to point out that defining a set amount of Mental Defense as a cut-off point beyond which the Power doesn't work at all means that less than 10 MD are "wasted" points versus this effect. This approach also defines two types of "strong mind" with different mechanics for each, those with MD and those without. System-mechanically I see nothing wrong with either build, and if they work for you that's what you should go with. Criticism was intended and welcomed, because it's constructive criticism. As always, you make a great point. Would you simply go with the EGO replaces INT? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MisterVimes Posted April 24, 2012 Author Report Share Posted April 24, 2012 Re: The Power to cloud men's minds This is especially relevant as 10 Mental Defense means it doesn't works on close (2m) and long ranges (100m or more). It simply does not work at all against those people. Without bright Fringe the EGo roll only happens if he get's within 2 Meters of the target. taht could be intentional (taht much mental defense means they are immune agaisnt this "subliminal" technique). Bright fringe is definitely the way to go from that perspective. And, with the Mental Defense, I was trying to define a "hard stop" wherein the target is so strong willed that it simply does not work on them. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lord Liaden Posted April 24, 2012 Report Share Posted April 24, 2012 Re: The Power to cloud men's minds Criticism was intended and welcomed, because it's constructive criticism. As always, you make a great point. Would you simply go with the EGO replaces INT? Well, not "simply." My correlation of Mental Defense points to Perception Level points was intended to make MD useful without changing the way Perception is handled, again to keep the effect as close to standard HERO as possible. However... And' date=' with the Mental Defense, I was trying to define a "hard stop" wherein the target is so strong willed that it simply does not work on them.[/quote'] If that's what you want it makes perfect sense. Alternatively, you could try setting a "total Character Points in EGO + Mental Defense" as the hard stop, so that high-EGO characters without MD would also be immune. In 6E the EGO and MD costs also line up. But you may want MD to have a qualitatively different effect, which is certainly justifiable. It all comes down to personal taste. I would never suggest to another HEROphile that the way they prefer to use the system is "wrong." Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MisterVimes Posted April 24, 2012 Author Report Share Posted April 24, 2012 Re: The Power to cloud men's minds Well, not "simply." My correlation of Mental Defense points to Perception Level points was intended to make MD useful without changing the way Perception is handled, again to keep the effect as close to standard HERO as possible. However... If that's what you want it makes perfect sense. Alternatively, you could try setting a "total Character Points in EGO + Mental Defense" as the hard stop, so that high-EGO characters without MD would also be immune. In 6E the EGO and MD costs also line up. But you may want MD to have a qualitatively different effect, which is certainly justifiable. It all comes down to personal taste. I would never suggest to another HEROphile that the way they prefer to use the system is "wrong." We are far too polite, you and I. I think the "total Character Points in EGO + Mental Defense" as the hard stop is an excellent suggestion. Seeing as this is a GAC game and we've established the MD value (arbitrarily) at 10, then set the total Character Points in EGO + Mental Defense at 20. Thoughts? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lord Liaden Posted April 24, 2012 Report Share Posted April 24, 2012 Re: The Power to cloud men's minds We are far too polite, you and I. I think the "total Character Points in EGO + Mental Defense" as the hard stop is an excellent suggestion. Seeing as this is a GAC game and we've established the MD value (arbitrarily) at 10, then set the total Character Points in EGO + Mental Defense at 20. Thoughts? That would give you a range for immunity from EGO 10 plus 20 points of MD (or more if EGO is bought down), to EGO 30 with no points of MD. Does that suit the campaign parameters you have in mind? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MisterVimes Posted April 24, 2012 Author Report Share Posted April 24, 2012 Re: The Power to cloud men's minds That would give you a range for immunity from EGO 10 plus 20 points of MD (or more if EGO is bought down)' date=' to EGO 30 with no points of MD. Does that suit the campaign parameters you have in mind?[/quote'] Typo on my part. A total of 20 (10+10) and, yeah, with a lot of mooks and Normal Characteristic maxima agents, I think that's about right. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Hyper-Man Posted April 24, 2012 Report Share Posted April 24, 2012 Re: The Power to cloud men's minds I see that you still place a high importance on Perception (which makes sense when choosing not to use the No Fringe Adder with Invisibility). If having some chance of defeating this ability with a roll is a primary goal you may want to consider the alternative mechanic of Images with the Self Only Limitation. It may end up being a higher Active cost but it would allow you to 'fine tune' the exact Perception Penalty the ability gives vs. an always debatable value Custom Limitation. I don't have time to play with Hero Designer to cost everything out right now but I'm sure an equivalent ability with a similar real cost could be worked out. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lord Liaden Posted April 24, 2012 Report Share Posted April 24, 2012 Re: The Power to cloud men's minds Change Environment penalizing Perception would be another way to go. The biggest difference between this or Images and Invisibility would be defining a set range and/or area for the "clouding" to take effect, so someone at a distance, with binoculars for instance, would be able to see the character. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lord Liaden Posted April 24, 2012 Report Share Posted April 24, 2012 Re: The Power to cloud men's minds In relation to the above, Mental Illusions was the first thing I thought of' date=' but invisibility seems the quickest route.[/quote'] MI, AoE, No Range, Set Effect, would give you the same sort of "clouding field" with all the Mental Combat aspects intact. Perception is no longer a factor, but EGO and Mental Defense all apply as per normal, with no need to fudge any rules. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bigbywolfe Posted April 25, 2012 Report Share Posted April 25, 2012 Re: The Power to cloud men's minds Are you trying to model the Shadow's ability exactly. I think several smart villains were able to attack him, or at least dodge him, by judging his position from his shadow, or at the very least realize they were not alone due to the "extra" shadow in the room. How often were characters, mystics or otherwise, actually able to see him himself? I don't remember that ever happening, but I've only listened to a couple dozen episodes. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Christopher Posted April 25, 2012 Report Share Posted April 25, 2012 Re: The Power to cloud men's minds Are you trying to model the Shadow's ability exactly. I think several smart villains were able to attack him' date=' or at least dodge him, by judging his position from his shadow, or at the very least realize they were not alone due to the "extra" shadow in the room. How often were characters, mystics or otherwise, actually able to see him himself? I don't remember that ever happening, but I've only listened to a couple dozen episodes.[/quote'] Only saw one film. He was indirectly detected once (walking in water), wich is much (as often as Superman is subjected to Kryptonite in his movies). Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bigbywolfe Posted April 25, 2012 Report Share Posted April 25, 2012 Re: The Power to cloud men's minds That would be the same as someone seeing his shadow, just with a huge PER boost from environmental factors, not someone seeing him because he couldn't "cloud their mind". Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Christopher Posted April 25, 2012 Report Share Posted April 25, 2012 Re: The Power to cloud men's minds That would be the same as someone seeing his shadow' date=' just with a huge PER boost from environmental factors, not someone seeing him because he couldn't "cloud their mind".[/quote'] Nope. The perception roll only works if you get Close (2m). But indirect targetting (while walking in water) can work on dozens of meters. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MisterVimes Posted April 25, 2012 Author Report Share Posted April 25, 2012 Re: The Power to cloud men's minds Only saw one film. He was indirectly detected once (walking in water)' date=' wich is much (as often as Superman is subjected to Kryptonite in his movies).[/quote'] Yeah. That's why I'm reading back through some of the books (randomly selected) to see if I can find anything like that. I don't recall it being in the books (which is what I'm aiming for) but there were over 300 stories, so I may have to extend my research. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bigbywolfe Posted April 25, 2012 Report Share Posted April 25, 2012 Re: The Power to cloud men's minds Nope. The perception roll only works if you get Close (2m).But indirect targetting (while walking in water) can work on dozens of meters.That doesn't alter my point' date=' that it is an [b']environmental effect[/b] and has absolutely nothing to do with not having your mind clouded. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bigbywolfe Posted April 25, 2012 Report Share Posted April 25, 2012 Re: The Power to cloud men's minds Yeah. That's why I'm reading back through some of the books (randomly selected) to see if I can find anything like that. I don't recall it being in the books (which is what I'm aiming for) but there were over 300 stories' date=' so I may have to extend my research.[/quote']I thought he didn't even have the invisibility power in the original pulp stories and that it was added around the same time the radio show started. Is that incorrect? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MisterVimes Posted April 25, 2012 Author Report Share Posted April 25, 2012 Re: The Power to cloud men's minds I thought he didn't even have the invisibility power in the original pulp stories and that it was added around the same time the radio show started. Is that incorrect? Radio shows, serials, comics, and books are starting to blur. So I'm going to go do some research. But it is very likely this will come up in my game and I want a fairly bulletproof build when it does. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MisterVimes Posted April 25, 2012 Author Report Share Posted April 25, 2012 Re: The Power to cloud men's minds I thought he didn't even have the invisibility power in the original pulp stories and that it was added around the same time the radio show started. Is that incorrect? I found this quote that shows that you are correct: Over the years, the character evolved. On September 26, 1937, The Shadow radio drama officially premiered with the story "The Deathhouse Rescue", in which the character had "the power to cloud men's minds so they cannot see him." This was a contrivance for the radio; in the magazine stories, The Shadow did not have the ability to become literally invisible. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MisterVimes Posted April 25, 2012 Author Report Share Posted April 25, 2012 Re: The Power to cloud men's minds And The Shadow Magazine ceased publication with the Summer 1949 issue, but Walter B. Gibson wrote three new "official" stories between 1963 and 1980. The first of these began a new series of nine updated Shadow novels from Belmont Books, starting with Return of The Shadow under his own by-line. But the remaining eight, The Shadow Strikes, Beware Shadow, Cry Shadow, The Shadow's Revenge, Mark of The Shadow, Shadow Go Mad, Night of The Shadow, and The Shadow, Destination: Moon, were not penned by Gibson but by Dennis Lynds under the "Maxwell Grant" byline. In these last eight novels, The Shadow was given psychic powers, including the radio character's ability "to cloud men's minds" so that he effectively became invisible, and was more of a spymaster than crime fighter. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MisterVimes Posted April 26, 2012 Author Report Share Posted April 26, 2012 Re: The Power to cloud men's minds I found this build from Darren for the Shadow and he doesn't address the issue of EGO at all. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bigbywolfe Posted April 27, 2012 Report Share Posted April 27, 2012 Re: The Power to cloud men's minds I found this build from Darren for the Shadow and he doesn't address the issue of EGO at all.And it's a great build' date=' but I thought [b']you[/b] wanted to include it. Or am I missing the point of this thread? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MisterVimes Posted April 27, 2012 Author Report Share Posted April 27, 2012 Re: The Power to cloud men's minds And it's a great build' date=' but I thought [b']you[/b] wanted to include it. Or am I missing the point of this thread? I do. But it was interesting to see what others have done. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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