The Power to cloud men's minds

[MisterVimes]

Because I am ramping up my unnamed GAC/Pulp campaign, I have been re-watching a lot of serials and re-reading a lot of pulps. In "Pulp Hero" 5Ed, Steve proposes the obvious solution to the Shadow's ability to ability to vanish by 'clouding men's minds' -- invisibility. Various versions are presented, but there is a suggestion that the GM optionally allow a +1 PER to detect the character for every 5 points of Mental Defense that the person has. That's totally in keeping with the power, those with strong minds can see through the Shadow's 'invisibility'.

 

That mechanic (while elegant) doesn't work for me. It doesn't take in to consideration merely those with high EGO and, from my perspective, it doesn't really fit the way we do things as a general rule (maybe I'm over analyzing). So, how would you write up Invisibility that can be perceived by those "with enough will"?

[Escafarc]

Re: The Power to cloud men's minds

 

Requires Opposed Skill Roll (EGO vs EGO) ?

[MisterVimes]

Re: The Power to cloud men's minds

 

Requires Opposed Skill Roll (EGO vs EGO) ?

 

That could work. What of all the normal folks? Would we assume a general roll against the 'casual intelligence' of the crowd?

[Christopher]

Re: The Power to cloud men's minds

 

I see two ways:

Invisbility to Sight, Psinocs (APG II 49; -1/2)

That makes him ivisible but leaves the indirect detection (seeing his footsteps) and detection via the Invisbility Fringe Mechanic possible. And he still turns up on cameras and similar devices.

 

Mental Illusion. Would be at least a EGO+20 while out of combat and a EGO+30 while in Combat.

[MisterVimes]

Re: The Power to cloud men's minds

 

I see two ways:

Invisbility to Sight, Psinocs (APG II 49; -1/2)

That makes him ivisible but leaves the indirect detection (seeing his footsteps) and detection via the Invisbility Fringe Mechanic possible. And he still turns up on cameras and similar devices.

 

Mental Illusion. Would be at least a EGO+20 while out of combat and a EGO+30 while in Combat.

 

I haven't read all the way through APG II yet. Interesting. I'll check that one out.

Mental Illusions was the first thing I thought of, but invisibility seems the quickest route.

[Hyper-Man]

Re: The Power to cloud men's minds

 

Because I am ramping up my unnamed GAC/Pulp campaign, I have been re-watching a lot of serials and re-reading a lot of pulps. In "Pulp Hero" 5Ed, Steve proposes the obvious solution to the Shadow's ability to ability to vanish by 'clouding men's minds' -- invisibility. Various versions are presented, but there is a suggestion that the GM optionally allow a +1 PER to detect the character for every 5 points of Mental Defense that the person has. That's totally in keeping with the power, those with strong minds can see through the Shadow's 'invisibility'.

 

That mechanic (while elegant) doesn't work for me. It doesn't take in to consideration merely those with high EGO and, from my perspective, it doesn't really fit the way we do things as a general rule (maybe I'm over analyzing). So, how would you write up Invisibility that can be perceived by those "with enough will"?

 

Here's how I did it with a custom Limitation for an old 5e character named I-Mind (a bit of a Marvel Girl pastiche).

 

Mental Invisibility: Invisibility to Sight, Hearing, Smell/Taste, Radio, Touch and Mystic Groups and Spatial Awareness , No Fringe, Costs END Only To Activate (+1/4) (75 Active Points); Limited Power Only vs. Sentient Targets That Character Is Aware Of (Not vs. Targets with EGO + Mental Defense Greater than 35; -1)

[Christopher]

Re: The Power to cloud men's minds

 

Because I am ramping up my unnamed GAC/Pulp campaign, I have been re-watching a lot of serials and re-reading a lot of pulps. In "Pulp Hero" 5Ed, Steve proposes the obvious solution to the Shadow's ability to ability to vanish by 'clouding men's minds' -- invisibility. Various versions are presented, but there is a suggestion that the GM optionally allow a +1 PER to detect the character for every 5 points of Mental Defense that the person has. That's totally in keeping with the power, those with strong minds can see through the Shadow's 'invisibility'.

 

That mechanic (while elegant) doesn't work for me. It doesn't take in to consideration merely those with high EGO and, from my perspective, it doesn't really fit the way we do things as a general rule (maybe I'm over analyzing). So, how would you write up Invisibility that can be perceived by those "with enough will"?

Okay, Psioncis doesn't deals with that. It mostly deals with the "Only agaisnt beings with Minds".

 

Let's see what we have:

Normal Invsibiltiy has a Fringe, wich means that the character can be percieved with a normal Perception Roll at 2m or less.

For a +10 adder, it can have no Fringe. Even if he stands right in your field of vision 10 cm from your eyes, you would not see him.

Then there is the Bright Fringe. For a -1/4 Limitation you can be seen with Perception Roll at up to 16m. At up to 4m the Per Roll has a +2.

 

How about re-defining the Roll to Percieve him to a EGO Roll + Mental Defense/5* and just keep the ranges? There is still no chance to see him on higher distances, but once he get's closer thigns get easier.

Another question is, if those described as having "High Willpower" might have actually been using some type of Mental Awarenss, Detect Minds (put in the Mental Group) or Mind Scan to find him.

 

*for -0, as it also has the advantage that high PER characters can't detect him that easily anymore.

[MisterVimes]

Re: The Power to cloud men's minds

 

Here's how I did it with a custom Limitation for an old 5e character named I-Mind (a bit of a Marvel Girl pastiche).

 

That's a very interesting way to do that. Excellent suggestion.

[MisterVimes]

Re: The Power to cloud men's minds

 

Okay, Psioncis doesn't deals with that. It mostly deals with the "Only agaisnt beings with Minds".

 

Let's see what we have:

Normal Invsibiltiy has a Fringe, wich means that the character can be percieved with a normal Perception Roll at 2m or less.

For a +10 adder, it can have no Fringe. Even if he stands right in your field of vision 10 cm from your eyes, you would not see him.

Then there is the Bright Fringe. For a -1/4 Limitation you can be seen with Perception Roll at up to 16m. At up to 4m the Per Roll has a +2.

 

How about re-defining the Roll to Percieve him to a EGO Roll + Mental Defense/5* and just keep the ranges? There is still no chance to see him on higher distances, but once he get's closer thigns get easier.

Another question is, if those described as having "High Willpower" might have actually been using some type of Mental Awarenss, Detect Minds (put in the Mental Group) or Mind Scan to find him.

 

*for -0, as it also has the advantage that high PER characters can't detect him that easily anymore.

 

Also a great suggestion. The idea is that his ability works on the average, weak willed who believe what they see and those with more active or vigorous mind (those not easily controlled or fooled) can see through the effect. It's pretty much the origins of the Jedi Mind Trick.

[Christopher]

Re: The Power to cloud men's minds

 

Also a great suggestion. The idea is that his ability works on the average' date=' weak willed who believe what they see and those with more active or vigorous mind (those not easily controlled or fooled) can see through the effect. It's pretty much the origins of the Jedi Mind Trick.[/quote']

Where is the threshold, then? At what point is the EGO+Mental Defense so high that he can be seen? How powerfull must it be against the everage 10 EGO human to work reliably.

Or in short: How many relevant* tragets shoudl be affected by it?

 

*Relevant in "ones that mater for the Story". When one every 4000 citizens sees him it won't affect his abiltiy to pass through a crowd very much.

[MisterVimes]

Re: The Power to cloud men's minds

 

Where is the threshold, then? At what point is the EGO+Mental Defense so high that he can be seen? How powerfull must it be against the everage 10 EGO human to work reliably.

Or in short: How many relevant* tragets shoudl be affected by it?

 

*Relevant in "ones that mater for the Story". When one every 4000 citizens sees him it won't affect his abiltiy to pass through a crowd very much.

 

An interesting point. Typically it was only those trained in mysticism or those rare characters necessary for the story. Perhaps "Requires ego vs ego roll" is the way to go.

[Christopher]

Re: The Power to cloud men's minds

 

An interesting point. Typically it was only those trained in mysticism or those rare characters necessary for the story. Perhaps "Requires ego vs ego roll" is the way to go.

When it is most often those with Similar Training, I would mostly put it under "had an alternative sense that was not affected". It might have been shown as seeing, but in reality it was "detecting his Mind". Mind scan can be really annoying for Invisible Characters who don't cover the Mental Group.

 

For any other approach we also need to know if Proximity has any effect. Makes it a difference if he is 2m away, 16m or 1 km?

[MisterVimes]

Re: The Power to cloud men's minds

 

When it is most often those with Similar Training, I would mostly put it under "had an alternative sense that was not affected". It might have been shown as seeing, but in reality it was "detecting his Mind". Mind scan can be really annoying for Invisible Characters who don't cover the Mental Group.

 

For any other approach we also need to know if Proximity has any effect. Makes it a difference if he is 2m away, 16m or 1 km?

 

It think you're right in the first case. If the enemies are "trained" then they likely have enhance mental senses.

 

As the majority of the events the invisibility only mattered in close range, sort of like stealth.

[Enforcer84]

Re: The Power to cloud men's minds

 

...see Raquel Welch in the Gun Girls thread.

[Christopher]

Re: The Power to cloud men's minds

 

It think you're right in the first case. If the enemies are "trained" then they likely have enhance mental senses.

 

As the majority of the events the invisibility only mattered in close range, sort of like stealth.

Then you could just take Psionic and hte +0 Advantage "Fringe detected by EGO+Mental Defense instead of Preception". Maybe add "bright Fringe" if 16m sounds more like it than 2 meters.

[Lord Liaden]

Re: The Power to cloud men's minds

 

Because I am ramping up my unnamed GAC/Pulp campaign, I have been re-watching a lot of serials and re-reading a lot of pulps. In "Pulp Hero" 5Ed, Steve proposes the obvious solution to the Shadow's ability to ability to vanish by 'clouding men's minds' -- invisibility. Various versions are presented, but there is a suggestion that the GM optionally allow a +1 PER to detect the character for every 5 points of Mental Defense that the person has. That's totally in keeping with the power, those with strong minds can see through the Shadow's 'invisibility'.

 

That mechanic (while elegant) doesn't work for me. It doesn't take in to consideration merely those with high EGO and, from my perspective, it doesn't really fit the way we do things as a general rule (maybe I'm over analyzing). So, how would you write up Invisibility that can be perceived by those "with enough will"?

 

How about using an EGO Characteristic roll like a Complementary Skill roll to Perception?

[MisterVimes]

Re: The Power to cloud men's minds

 

How about using an EGO Characteristic roll like a Complementary Skill roll to Perception?

 

There's a mechanic I can get behind. Not that different than the original and still within the rules set.

[kahuna's bro]

Re: The Power to cloud men's minds

 

i alway thoght"the power to cloud mens minds refered to hypnosis

[MisterVimes]

Re: The Power to cloud men's minds

 

i alway thoght"the power to cloud mens minds refered to hypnosis

 

It does, technically, but the effect we are looking for is his ability to become invisible.

[Christopher]

Re: The Power to cloud men's minds

 

i alway thoght"the power to cloud mens minds refered to hypnosis

It is at is says in my Signature:

"If it looks like a duck, and sounds like a duck, it might just be a duck-flavored Killing Attack ;)"

 

It is Invisibility with the Special Effect "Hypnotizing everyone to not see me".

[Lord Liaden]

Re: The Power to cloud men's minds

 

Just a little brainstorming here: What would you think of basing the Perception roll to detect the Shadow's Invisible self on EGO instead of INT? That would directly correlate the mechanic to the character's strength of will. If this is for a 6E game the Characteristic costs square up, so I don't think you'd change the cost for Invisibility at all.

 

Going back to Steve's original proposed solution, against this Invisibility only, you might consider Character Points in Mental Defense as though they were bought for Perception Levels instead. With the switch to EGO-based PER it would all be thematically more consistent, at least IMHO. OTOH Levels bought for normal INT-based PER wouldn't apply at all.

[Christopher]

Re: The Power to cloud men's minds

 

Just a little brainstorming here: What would you think of basing the Perception roll to detect the Shadow's Invisible self on EGO instead of INT? That would directly correlate the mechanic to the character's strength of will. If this is for a 6E game the Characteristic costs square up, so I don't think you'd change the cost for Invisibility at all.

 

Going back to Steve's original proposed solution, against this Invisibility only, you might consider Character Points in Mental Defense as though they were bought for Perception Levels instead. With the switch to EGO-based PER it would all be thematically more consistent, at least IMHO. OTOH Levels bought for normal INT-based PER wouldn't apply at all.

I already brought that idea up.

 

I figured that changing Perception to 9+(EGO+Mental Defense)/5 was an even trade (+0 Advantage). After all it does mean that "Superperceptive guy" has fewer cance at detecting you than normally. And I doubt that Willstrong guys are as common as perceptive guys in many campaigns.

[Ockham's Spoon]

Re: The Power to cloud men's minds

 

I think Lord Liaden's idea of defining the PER for this Invisibility with EGO instead of INT is excellent; all the flavor without having to really change anything (in 6e anyway).

 

I had a couple of characters with a similar abilities in a 5e game. For one the Invisibility sfx was psychic cloaking and was built with with "Requires Skill Roll" only in this case the skill roll was defined as an EGO vs. EGO contest.

 

For the other, the character had Mind Control and the sfx was "I command you to forget I am here". Here the "skill roll" was defined as achieving EGO+20 result with his Mind Control. He didn't have to take an extra PHA or anything to activate the Mind Control any more than he would have for a regular skill roll, but it simulated the power of his Mind Control to become "invisible" well. You could do the same with Mental Illusions, but obviously this build only if the character has that power to begin with.

[MisterVimes]

Re: The Power to cloud men's minds

 

How about this build?

 

[table=width: 1024]

[tr]

[td]Cost[/td]

[td]POWERS[/td]

[td]END[/td]

[/tr]

 

[tr]

[td=align: right]18[/td]

[td]Cloud the Minds of Men: Invisibility to Sight and Hearing Groups , Costs Endurance Only To Activate (+1/4) (31 Active Points); Only Works Against Sentient Persons Character Is Aware Of (-1/2), Not effective against targets with Mental Defence of 10 or higher Power does not work in Uncommon Circumstances (-1/4), EGO replaces INT for perception rolls. (-0)[/td]

[td=align: right]2[/td]

[/tr]

 

[/table]

 

or (since the Shadow's power affected all minds around him)

 

[table=width: 1024]

[tr]

[td]Cost[/td]

[td]POWERS[/td]

[td]END[/td]

[/tr]

 

[tr]

[td=align: right]25[/td]

[td]Cloud the Minds of Men: Invisibility to Sight and Hearing Groups , Costs Endurance Only To Activate (+1/4) (31 Active Points); Not effective against targets with Mental Defence of 10 or higher Power does not work in Uncommon Circumstances (-1/4), EGO replaces INT for perception rolls. (-0)[/td]

[td=align: right]2[/td]

[/tr]

 

[/table]

[Lord Liaden]

Re: The Power to cloud men's minds

 

I already brought that idea up.

 

I figured that changing Perception to 9+(EGO+Mental Defense)/5 was an even trade (+0 Advantage). After all it does mean that "Superperceptive guy" has fewer cance at detecting you than normally. And I doubt that Willstrong guys are as common as perceptive guys in many campaigns.

 

My apologies, I missed that on skim-through.

 

Correlating Mental Defense points to Perception Levels, as I suggested, would tend to be more advantageous than MD/5, since levels with All Senses cost 3 CP per. But since Mister Vimes seems to want to stay as close to the standard HERO way of doing things as possible, I thought a direct transposition might appeal to him.