CrosshairCollie Posted May 15, 2012 Report Share Posted May 15, 2012 Re: Quickchange question Evidently they are different enough for the zeta beam transporters to not recognize Billy (from a recent Young Justice animated episode). That could be based on the physical alteration, though. If the Zeta Beam equipment is looking for someone 6'6" and 350 pounds of muscle ... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Hyper-Man Posted May 16, 2012 Report Share Posted May 16, 2012 Re: Quickchange question The description of the Limitation practically uses Captain Marvel/SHAZAM! as one example of how it should work. from 6e1 page 387: Only In Alternate Identity A character whose transformation to his alternate identity requires him to speak a magic word can be gagged or otherwise silenced to prevent the change. I'd say that's a pretty damn good argument for Captain Marvel/SHAZAM! to be built using the Limitation. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bigbywolfe Posted May 16, 2012 Report Share Posted May 16, 2012 Re: Quickchange question I completely agree. I think the question is does such a character need a Shapeshift or something else as well? Some people are saying yes. I would say generally no. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Hyper-Man Posted May 16, 2012 Report Share Posted May 16, 2012 Re: Quickchange question Does Iron Man/Tony Stark need Shapeshift? No one is even asking this question (answer = no) yet that is another equally valid special effect for using Only In Alternate Identity. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bigbywolfe Posted May 16, 2012 Report Share Posted May 16, 2012 Re: Quickchange question Agreed, which is why I said my answer would be "generally, no". I'm not the one who brought up the question of Shapeshift, I was just pointing out that, as far as I could tell, that was what was being debated, not OIAID. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
CrosshairCollie Posted May 16, 2012 Report Share Posted May 16, 2012 Re: Quickchange question I completely agree. I think the question is does such a character need a Shapeshift or something else as well? Some people are saying yes. I would say generally no. I would say definitely no. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Hyper-Man Posted May 16, 2012 Report Share Posted May 16, 2012 Re: Quickchange question Agreed' date=' which is why I said my answer would be "generally, no". I'm not the one who brought up the question of Shapeshift, I was just pointing out that, as far as I could tell, that was what was being debated, not OIAID.[/quote'] Sorry, I didn't mean that to sound like it was directed at you. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bigbywolfe Posted May 16, 2012 Report Share Posted May 16, 2012 Re: Quickchange question Sorry' date=' I didn't mean that to sound like it was directed at you.[/quote'] You didn't even quote me so I'm not sure why I responded as if that was aimed at me. Sorry. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Christopher Posted May 16, 2012 Report Share Posted May 16, 2012 Re: Quickchange question The description of the Limitation practically uses Captain Marvel/SHAZAM! as one example of how it should work. from 6e1 page 387: [...] I'd say that's a pretty damn good argument for Captain Marvel/SHAZAM! to be built using the Limitation. That was not the question. The question was if he needed a shape shift or not and how "much" Shape Shift Effect he can get for free just because he has OIAID. I completely agree. I think the question is does such a character need a Shapeshift or something else as well? Some people are saying yes. I would say generally no. Does Iron Man/Tony Stark need Shapeshift? No one is even asking this question (answer = no) yet that is another equally valid special effect for using Only In Alternate Identity. I do see a difference between Batman and Iron Man on the one side and Captain Marvel on the other: Destroyable Costume/Easyness to demask him. It (potentially) easy to unmask Batman (just take his colw). Iron Mans Armor can be cracked With the captain the easyness varies - sometimes he reverts when Stunned/K.O. Sometimes he stays in Alternate ID even when totally drained of power. Another thing might be "easyness to suit up". Of course, don't these things fall more into the area of taking, taking a less severe or not taking Secret Identity Complciation? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Hyper-Man Posted May 16, 2012 Report Share Posted May 16, 2012 Re: Quickchange question That was not the question. The question was if he needed a shape shift or not and how "much" Shape Shift Effect he can get for free just because he has OIAID. I do see a difference between Batman and Iron Man on the one side and Captain Marvel on the other: Destroyable Costume/Easyness to demask him. It (potentially) easy to unmask Batman (just take his colw). Iron Mans Armor can be cracked With the captain the easyness varies - sometimes he reverts when Stunned/K.O. Sometimes he stays in Alternate ID even when totally drained of power. Another thing might be "easyness to suit up". Of course, don't these things fall more into the area of taking, taking a less severe or not taking Secret Identity Complciation? You are just making a special effect based argument. No rule exists that requires the Billy/Cap' type to purchase shapeshift or multiform. A GM can certainly make such a distinction as a campaign rule but he better damn well have a good reason and apply it consistently in game. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Christopher Posted May 16, 2012 Report Share Posted May 16, 2012 Re: Quickchange question You are just making a special effect based argument. No rule exists that requires the Billy/Cap' type to purchase shapeshift or multiform. A GM can certainly make such a distinction as a campaign rule but he better damn well have a good reason and apply it consistently in game. I am not making an argument. I am meerly pointing out what both sides have as points for or against. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
blake.duffey Posted May 16, 2012 Author Report Share Posted May 16, 2012 Re: Quickchange question I truly appreciate all the feedback. I'm going to go back and re-read the entire thread, I think the consensus is the transform really isn't necessary although there isn't a right/wrong answer. I'll be posting another query shortly. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bigbywolfe Posted May 16, 2012 Report Share Posted May 16, 2012 Re: Quickchange question That was not the question. The question was if he needed a shape shift or not and how "much" Shape Shift Effect he can get for free just because he has OIAID.I do see a difference between Batman and Iron Man on the one side and Captain Marvel on the other:Destroyable Costume/Easyness to demask him. It (potentially) easy to unmask Batman (just take his colw). Iron Mans Armor can be cracked With the captain the easyness varies - sometimes he reverts when Stunned/K.O. Sometimes he stays in Alternate ID even when totally drained of power.Another thing might be "easyness to suit up".Of course' date=' don't these things fall more into the area of taking, taking a less severe or not taking Secret Identity Complciation?[/quote']If you want Iron Man's armor to be able to be cracked and such then you buy it as a focus. If you don't want to deal with that in game than you buy it as OIAID and you don't have to worry about it. Your version of OIAID Batman confuses me. If his mask is ripped like you suggest does he lose access to his belt and other gadgets bought as OIAID? No? Then he probably shouldn't be built OIAID (or for some reason you magically can't rip his mask off just like the Iron Man example above). Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Christopher Posted May 16, 2012 Report Share Posted May 16, 2012 Re: Quickchange question Your version of OIAID Batman confuses me. If his mask is ripped like you suggest does he lose access to his belt and other gadgets bought as OIAID? No? Then he probably shouldn't be built OIAID (or for some reason you magically can't rip his mask off just like the Iron Man example above). Not "OIAID batman". Just Batman. I was pointing out that it is easier to demask Batman than it is to demask Captain Marvel. For one, you have to take off his cowl. For the other, you have to get him to say "Shazam" (and before that you have to know that it empowers/depowers him). Another factor is that the speed of the change is different: Batman won't get into his costume in a half phase or as 0-phase action. He has to find a place and have time to change. Superman and Flash have the same Costume situation, but they are solving it by using Instant Change. Captain Marvels ability seems to be heavy on the side of Shape Shift: He looks different (even age), his biometrics are different, he propably smells different (different body+different clothing), he propably has his mental signature masked, he may feel and taste differently. Also, his costume is effectively indestructible. And his switch is instant/really fast. So he does get a lot of free game effect as part of his OIAID. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bigbywolfe Posted May 16, 2012 Report Share Posted May 16, 2012 Re: Quickchange question So Batman actually had nothing to do with OIAID or your point whatsoever... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Christopher Posted May 16, 2012 Report Share Posted May 16, 2012 Re: Quickchange question So Batman actually had nothing to do with OIAID or your point whatsoever... My point was to listing all the Advantages Captain Marvel has compared to a guy with a mask/costume. And it sums up to a lot of effect. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bigbywolfe Posted May 16, 2012 Report Share Posted May 16, 2012 Re: Quickchange question We have yet to have a single reference from the source material in this thread that mentions his smell or taste, that's your assumption. The "mental signature" is questionable. Looks and size are things we often let slide with OIAID, you can find countless threads where the advice to new players is essentially "don't bother with shape shift, just have him look different when his powers are activated". If you don't like that, then when you run a game you can require Shapeshift. It has been my experience that most GMs don't. I don't think the costume being indestructable really counts as a point for requiring Shapeshift. His switch may be really fast but it is also very loud and extremely visible. OIAID is a Limitation and should outway any benifits it grants. The way I usually see it run it does. Short version, I don't think it "sums up to a lot of effect" in most cases. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
CrosshairCollie Posted May 17, 2012 Report Share Posted May 17, 2012 Re: Quickchange question For what it's worth, I can't think of a single officially printed Champions character in 4th or 5th edition with Only In Hero ID on his/her powers that also had Shapeshift as part of the package ... and there are several who have alternate forms without that limitation who don't have it, either, most relevant to this conversation being Harpy, who goes from 'normal woman' to, well, having wings and taloned feet. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lucius Posted May 17, 2012 Report Share Posted May 17, 2012 Re: Quickchange question Quick Change: (Total: 7 Active Cost, 3 Real Cost) Lightning Calculator (3 Active Points); Limited Power Only to make change (-1) (Real Cost: 1) plus Money: Well Off; Limited Power Can always make change if someone asks (Can pay for reasonable purchases with exact change; -1/4) (Real Cost: 1) b>plus Sleight Of Hand 11- (3 Active Points); Limited Power Only to produce and count money faster than the eye can follow (-1 1/2) (Real Cost: 1) Lucius Alexander The palindromedary takes its toll. Please have exact change. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Christopher Posted May 17, 2012 Report Share Posted May 17, 2012 Re: Quickchange question If you don't like that' date=' then when [i']you run a game [/i]you can require Shapeshift. You thought process is not suported by anything I said. Especially not what I said directly before your post. My point was to listing all the Advantages Captain Marvel has compared to a guy with a mask/costume. And it sums up to a lot of effect. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bigbywolfe Posted May 17, 2012 Report Share Posted May 17, 2012 Re: Quickchange question You quote one line and ignore where I point out that half the advantages you give are not supported in the source materia and several (size and looks) are usually allowedby most GMs. Yeah, that had nothing to do with your post at all. :eyeroll: Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
blake.duffey Posted May 17, 2012 Author Report Share Posted May 17, 2012 Re: Quickchange question Thanks, I think that's a really good point. (I often try to use the published NPCs as a guideline when I have questions on builds) Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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