Facing and Passing

[Sean Waters]

A couple of things that I am occasionally aware of in play are the rules, or lack of rules on facing (i.e. which way the character is oriented) and passing (i.e. one character's ability to move unimpeded past a hostile character).

 

As far as facing goes I have always assumed that the characters are in constant movement and so the rules on flanking and multiple attackers do a reasonable job of dealing with the consequences of facing without needing to bother with the actual micro-mechanics of it. However there are some situations where facing matters, for example if a character has a shield that only covers one half of their body, you need to know if you are looking at the covered bit or not. You CAN simulate that with a 'Requires a Roll' limitation BUT that does not allow a sneaky attacker to influence the chance by approaching from a certain angle. You could use an opposed roll, but that also seems problematic too: the character with the shield could just 'plant' it and stay behind it, which would mean that attacking from a certain angle would DEFINITELY hit shield (say the character is defending a narrow corridor and just concentrating on defence). Of more general applicability we sort of have a facing rule in regard to bracing against knockback: you have to declare which direction you are bracing against...OK not necessarily the same as facing, but similar.

 

Also lack of 'facing' rules discriminates against people who have bought senses with increased arc of perception.

 

So, what do people think? Do the existing rule adequately cover the idea of facing and are there any improvement that could be made?

 

More of an issue to my mind is passing. If Superman is trying to protect Lois Lane and jumps in front of her to stop some villain grabbing her and threatening to break her neck, in Hero, unless Superman is occupying a very narrow space, there is nothing to stop the villain just walking round him and grabbing Lois anyway, assuming Superman does not have a held action. Does anyone else see that as a problem and, if so, what would you do to address it?

 

Let me just say that I imagine that many people, like me, 'correct' for this lack of rule by simply not having the villain walk round Superman and grab Lois, but the fact that we make sure the situation does not come up does not seem like a good reason not to have a mechanic in place for when it does; Hero would be a slimmer tome if we took that approach.

[Hugh Neilson]

Re: Facing and Passing

 

As far as facing goes I have always assumed that the characters are in constant movement and so the rules on flanking and multiple attackers do a reasonable job of dealing with the consequences of facing without needing to bother with the actual micro-mechanics of it. However there are some situations where facing matters' date=' for example if a character has a shield that only covers one half of their body, you need to know if you are looking at the covered bit or not. You CAN simulate that with a 'Requires a Roll' limitation BUT that does not allow a sneaky attacker to influence the chance by approaching from a certain angle. You could use an opposed roll, but that also seems problematic too: the character with the shield could just 'plant' it and stay behind it, which would mean that attacking from a certain angle would [i']DEFINITELY [/i]hit shield (say the character is defending a narrow corridor and just concentrating on defence). Of more general applicability we sort of have a facing rule in regard to bracing against knockback: you have to declare which direction you are bracing against...OK not necessarily the same as facing, but similar.

 

Why can't the shield have a limitation that it acts like bracing for knockback - that is, it only covers (say) three hex facings, and the character may only change these by a zero phase action? We had a character with a personal Force Wall who did exactly this. Slap it in a "Variable Limitation" - either it only covers three facings OR it requires a roll, depending on whether the character plants it in place or keeps moving.

 

Also lack of 'facing' rules discriminates against people who have bought senses with increased arc of perception.

 

Here, we probably need to assess whether "increased arc" should provide a bonus to PER rolls since the character is less likely to "not be looking that way" since he can look a lot more ways at the same time.

 

More of an issue to my mind is passing. If Superman is trying to protect Lois Lane and jumps in front of her to stop some villain grabbing her and threatening to break her neck' date=' in Hero, unless Superman is occupying a very narrow space, there is nothing to stop the villain just walking round him and grabbing Lois anyway, assuming Superman does not have a held action. Does anyone else see that as a problem and, if so, what would you do to address it?[/quote']

 

Attacks of opportunity? Alternatively, perhaps this should be addressed by overriding the general rule that one cannot abort to an attack action in such cases. Mind you, why can't Supes use his Heat Vision from 20 meters away to protect Lois? For those with easily activated ranged powers, why is proximity a significant issue?

 

Let me just say that I imagine that many people' date=' like me, 'correct' for this lack of rule by simply not having the villain walk round Superman and grab Lois, but the fact that we make sure the situation does not come up does not seem like a good reason not to have a mechanic in place for when it does; Hero would be a slimmer tome if we took that approach. [/quote']

 

If we introduce Facing rules, what prevents the villain walking around the hero on his phase to "attack from behind"?

[Christopher]

Re: Facing and Passing

 

As far as facing goes I have always assumed that the characters are in constant movement and so the rules on flanking and multiple attackers do a reasonable job of dealing with the consequences of facing without needing to bother with the actual micro-mechanics of it. However there are some situations where facing matters' date=' for example if a character has a shield that only covers one half of their body, you need to know if you are looking at the covered bit or not. You CAN simulate that with a 'Requires a Roll' limitation BUT that does not allow a sneaky attacker to influence the chance by approaching from a certain angle. You could use an opposed roll, but that also seems problematic too: the character with the shield could just 'plant' it and stay behind it, which would mean that attacking from a certain angle would [i']DEFINITELY [/i]hit shield (say the character is defending a narrow corridor and just concentrating on defence).

At least the Shields I know of are normally built as extra DCV (wich can also be applied as extra OCV to a Block).

 

While Sneaking up to an opponent is simulated as +1 to +3 OCV.

 

When you boost too OCV + waiting for the segment your target can't abort* (and set all his CSL to OCV/Damage) isn't enough to overcome his DCV/Block with the Shield, then you are simply outclassed and should not be able to hit him.

 

*plus maybe the fact that the target coulnd't percieve you with a targettings sense befor the attack.

 

Also lack of 'facing' rules discriminates against people who have bought senses with increased arc of perception.

This does not solves that fact that you still can only defend in on direction. This is more an issue of the limitations on how far you can move your arms than what you can percieve.

 

More of an issue to my mind is passing. If Superman is trying to protect Lois Lane and jumps in front of her to stop some villain grabbing her and threatening to break her neck' date=' in Hero, unless Superman is occupying a very narrow space, there is nothing to stop the villain just walking round him and grabbing Lois anyway, assuming Superman does not have a held action. Does anyone else see that as a problem and, if so, what would you do to address it?[/quote']

When he not had a held action, he needed everything (every bit of speed) he got just to get in the way. And seriously what villain would not try to smack him out of the way first?

 

Attacks of opportunity? Alternatively' date=' perhaps this should be addressed by overriding the general rule that one cannot abort to an attack action in such cases. Mind you, why can't Supes use his Heat Vision from 20 meters away to protect Lois? For those with easily activated ranged powers, why is proximity a significant issue?[/quote']

In many interpretations supermans Heat Vision is seemingly a Killing Attack. While his superbreath seems to take extra time.

Also there are many instances where Aborting to an attack is allowed per RAW. Including the basic abortign rules (6E2) and optional maneuvers like Interference and Contest of Power (both APG).

[Sean Waters]

Re: Facing and Passing

 

OK, forget Superman, you have a Fantasy Hero Knight with the PITA Princess behind him and he is being attacked by an orc. The orc will stand little chance against the knight so walks round him and menaces the Princess. Assuming the Knight has acted he can not do anything about it, but, realistically, just walking past an opponent (or breaking off from an opponent) is not that straightforward.

 

DnD had Attacks of Opportunity, which could be a little complicated, but it could be simpler than that: simply 'can't be done' or 'requires an opposed roll', or somesuch: I'm not o much interested at this stage in what the rule should actually be as whether there is a need for such a rule at all.

[Christopher]

Re: Facing and Passing

 

There is the "Guarding Areas and ignorign Foes" and "Interposing" Optional Rule on 6E2 128.

 

Or the completely Standart Maneuver "Blocking for somebody nearby". (Interposing gives you a nice OCV bonus)

[Sean Waters]

Re: Facing and Passing

 

There is the "Guarding Areas and ignorign Foes" and "Interposing" Optional Rule on 6E2 128.

 

Or the completely Standart Maneuver "Blocking for somebody nearby". (Interposing gives you a nice OCV bonus)

 

Good thoughts, but still requires a held action, or an action in hand. If you have that then you can probably stop the orc anyway. Assuming the orc and the knight are the same speed, the knight can not simply keep on holding his action or the sequence will never resolve. In reality you can not simply ignore the huge fella menacing you with a pointy bit of metal and walk past to the soft target behind him, because in reality that would be suicide.

[Christopher]

Re: Facing and Passing

 

Good thoughts' date=' but still requires a held action, or an action in hand. If you have that then you can probably stop the orc anyway. Assuming the orc and the knight are the same speed, the knight can not simply keep on holding his action or the sequence will never resolve. In reality you can not simply ignore the huge fella menacing you with a pointy bit of metal and walk past to the soft target behind him, because in reality that would be suicide.[/quote']

Again:

If you don't have enough movement to still end up with a held action, you just aren't fast enough to pulls this off.

 

Combat might be handeled "stop and go", but it isn't stop and go. If you can't move into a blocking position, slow down and still threathen your enemy you are too far away. You can of course do things like pushing your movement rate to get there with a half move, but if you don't have a held action after your action is resolved you are simply not fast enough.

[Sean Waters]

Re: Facing and Passing

 

Orc and Knight in combat, trading blows, orc clearly losing. Knight attacks, orc survives and instead of playing against the odds, walks round knight and an extra couple of metres to Princess PITA and covers her. Orc wins. Knight is not moving at all, but the point is there is no penalty to the orc to ignoring a clearly very dangerous opponent and simply walking away. This can only happen in a 'stop and go' situation with discrete turns. In reality if the orc just ignored the knight, the knight could atatck much more quickly as he does not have to worry about defence.

[Christopher]

Re: Facing and Passing

 

Orc and Knight in combat' date=' trading blows, orc clearly losing. Knight attacks, orc survives and instead of playing against the odds, walks round knight and an extra couple of metres to Princess PITA and covers her.[/quote']

Knight aborts to Block that "Cover" attack of the orc. Orc won nothing.

[Sean Waters]

Re: Facing and Passing

 

Knight aborts to Block that "Cover" attack of the orc. Orc won nothing.

 

In the example I gave, Knight has already attacked so can not abort this phase.

[Christopher]

Re: Facing and Passing

 

If the orc wants to grab and cover the princess, then this needs two phases/a multiple attack - one to grab, one to cover. So he has all the penalties for that as well.

 

If the Orc just holds his phase until the knight attack him - then the knight stopped protecting the princess to make an attack and it's his own fault.

[JamesG]

Re: Facing and Passing

 

If the orc wants to grab and cover the princess' date=' then this needs two phases/a multiple attack - one to grab, one to cover. So he has all the penalties for that as well.[/quote']

 

Who says the orc needs to grab her first? I don't think Cover requires that. But lets make it even simpler. Princess PITA has already fainted from the stress, so is completely helpless and unable to take any action to defend herself.

 

If the Orc just holds his phase until the knight attack him - then the knight stopped protecting the princess to make an attack and it's his own fault.

 

No, that just ends in a tedious Mexican standoff if your solution depends on the Knight holding his action whenever the Orc does. I agree with Sean. While the existing Interpose rules are good, there is a hole in them in the situation Sean laid out.

[Christopher]

Re: Facing and Passing

 

No' date=' that just ends in a tedious Mexican standoff if your solution depends on the Knight holding his action whenever the Orc does.[/quote']

The reason it comes to a mexican standoff is simple: Neither side dares to act.

 

The same is here - unless one side decides to act (despite the downsides) or get's an opportunity to act (a distraction), neither side wins. Whoever get's reinforments first propably wins.

This is not a fault of the system, it is exactly how such sitatuations are supposed to be.

[Hugh Neilson]

Re: Facing and Passing

 

Christopher, you seem bound and determined to defend the rules rather than discuss them.

 

How often does combat become a mexican standof, neither side daring to act? Probably not often in reality. Definitely not often in the cinematic source material we are trying to emulate.

 

Sean's scenario seems quite plausibe. Knight acts at DEX 15, Ph 4 and slices a gash into Orc's arm. Orc says "screw this", and on DEX 14, walks three meters from "in front of knight" to "beside Princess PITA" and covers her. "HA HA, Sir Knight - drop your sword or I carve up Princess PITA".

 

Absent rules changes, this is the result. Alternatively, Bold Sir Knight can't take any actions as long as Princess PITA is in the area for fear Orc will use the time he gets to attack the princess.

 

Does that sound like the cinematic and heroic adventure we're trying to simulate, or a hole in the game rules that makes them Less Fun? I see the latter.

[Penthau]

Re: Facing and Passing

 

The way that you stop this kind of thing from happening in a wargame is by using a "zone of control", the hexes directly adjacent to a unit. Some games lock units from moving or more appropriately in this situation, slow movement through the zone. Since you are having to be careful moving so close to an active opponent, movement is doubled though the hexes. Maybe levels of OCV could be used to increase the movement rate, for instance every 2 levels used for ZOC increases movement rate by 1 per hex. Reach and some powers might increase the radius.

 

Christopher, you seem bound and determined to defend the rules rather than discuss them.

 

How often does combat become a mexican standof, neither side daring to act? Probably not often in reality. Definitely not often in the cinematic source material we are trying to emulate.

 

Sean's scenario seems quite plausibe. Knight acts at DEX 15, Ph 4 and slices a gash into Orc's arm. Orc says "screw this", and on DEX 14, walks three meters from "in front of knight" to "beside Princess PITA" and covers her. "HA HA, Sir Knight - drop your sword or I carve up Princess PITA".

 

Absent rules changes, this is the result. Alternatively, Bold Sir Knight can't take any actions as long as Princess PITA is in the area for fear Orc will use the time he gets to attack the princess.

 

Does that sound like the cinematic and heroic adventure we're trying to simulate, or a hole in the game rules that makes them Less Fun? I see the latter.

[Christopher]

Re: Facing and Passing

 

Christopher, you seem bound and determined to defend the rules rather than discuss them.

 

How often does combat become a mexican standof, neither side daring to act? Probably not often in reality. Definitely not often in the cinematic source material we are trying to emulate.

 

Sean's scenario seems quite plausibe. Knight acts at DEX 15, Ph 4 and slices a gash into Orc's arm. Orc says "screw this", and on DEX 14, walks three meters from "in front of knight" to "beside Princess PITA" and covers her. "HA HA, Sir Knight - drop your sword or I carve up Princess PITA".

When he is there to defend the princes, he shouldn't have attack a foe of equal powerlevel (one he was not likely to drop). That is why some characters say "I keep him/her save". Because you can't properly defend some and fight offensively in a battle. You can do either, not both.

[Hugh Neilson]

Re: Facing and Passing

 

OK, so should the hero be able to wait for the Orcs to attack, then say "OK, I walk neatly between them and attack the wizard 3 meters behind them"? Either it is simplicty itself to walk past threatening opponents or it is not. I think it is not, and I think it is reasonable to expect the game rules to reflect that.

 

What difference does it make what the Knight does? If we use the optional rules on 6e2 128, what happens? The Knight gets an OCV bonus when he uses his held action, or the Orc gets a DCV penalty. We've already established that one hit from the Knight doesn't take the Orc down anyway, so he's precisely as wounded as he would have been if the Knight had attacked him in the first place. He now proceeds to walk past, and cover Princess PITA anyway.

 

Or he takes advantage of the Knight's weakness, avoids the impact of the knight's action overall and gets the Princess later.

 

Guess it just sucks to be a knight!

[Christopher]

Re: Facing and Passing

 

OK' date=' so should the hero be able to wait for the Orcs to attack, then say "OK, I walk neatly between them and attack the wizard 3 meters behind them"? Either it is simplicty itself to walk past threatening opponents or it is not. I think it is not, and I think it is reasonable to expect the game rules to reflect that.[/quote']

Combat might be resoled in phases, but it does not needs to be explained in phases. What is wrong with the idea that they run at each other, he avoids beign hit and then goes stragith for the wizard?

 

Let's also see what you problem with the "k.o. princess" is:

Hero has to guard the princes

Orc has total freedom of action

Sound like the lone hero is at a tactical disadvantage and there are three possible outcomes

 

First:

If the orc is an inferior opponent he propably has less SPD and OCV/DCV. So all the hero has to do is Hold actions for the orc phases and clobber him on his additional phases. Chances are the orc has to abort just to not be killed when attack, is quickly forced on the defense (has to abort every phase) and overcome.

 

Second:

If there are multiple orcs that are inferior opponents, the hero might have to fight defensively (only able to use half his phases to attack), but will still prevail. Unless one of the orcs is really smart and slips by when the knight is engagend.

Takie a look at this:

http://demonfist.com/?p=1973

http://demonfist.com/?p=1974

Take a look at the First comic, First panel, left guy.

Now take a look a the second comic, first panel, same guy.

He started togehter with the other two who just get a magicaly empowered fist (Multi attack). Propably in adjacent or same hex. Looks like he used the segment of the engagement (the hero had higher Dex/Surprise) to slip passt our "knight" to take the girl hostage.

In that case the hero still had a ace in the hole. So he let that one slip by (to make certain the other two are down). That is normal because he way outclasses his enemies. Like 400 point superhero vs. 50-100 point mooks.

 

Third:

The hero faces a orc of similar power. Foe of similar power + tactical disadvantage = you loose. Or you might be able to delay the inevitable (until reinforcements arrive). Perhaps you even manage to trick the enemy (say with Presence attacks) but it will be a though one.

 

Name me one instance in the source matieral that is not one of these three cases (wich are handeled using Guarding Area and standart combat resolution rules).

 

Having to protect someone is one of the easiest ways in hero to make an encounter against weaker foes interesting and challenging.

[JamesG]

Re: Facing and Passing

 

Having to protect someone is one of the easiest ways in hero to make an encounter against weaker foes interesting and challenging.

 

Except with the RAW*, if there are two orcs it does not just become challenging for the knight to protect Princess PITA, it basically becomes impossible even if he greatly outclasses the orcs.

 

All the orcs have to do is hold until they have a phase together (and in most cases they will have the same Speed so they don't even need to hold). Orc #1 moves towards the Princess. If the knight ignores him he Covers the princess and now the Knight can't do anything or the princess gets it. If he attacks the Orc #1 before the orc Covers the princess, the orc dodges or dives for cover. Then Orc #2 moves to Cover the princess and the knight can do nothing about it since he has already attacked that segment. So no matter what the knight does he can not protect the princess when faced with 2+ opponents. This does not model the source material at all.

 

I'm all for making things interesting and challenging for the knight. I'm not in favor of making it impossible.

 

Actually I just thought of an out for the knight, he can Block the Cover attack of Orc #1, and then the can Block (at -2) Orc #2's attack as well. Though I'm still not wholly satisfied with how the rules handle this situation.

 

* I'm speaking from a 5ER perspective as my group has never converted to 6E. If 6E has expanded the Interpose rules to better cover this situation then never mind.

[Hugh Neilson]

Re: Facing and Passing

 

I don't recall the Knight being "outnumbered" by ONE orc. I also think there is a lot of space between "one attack action is virtually guaranteed to remove Orc from the fight" and "Orc is of similar power".

 

I don't find the result of "Outclassed opponent easily slips by and is now able to kill the innocent unless the hero surrenders" very common in the source material. Having covered Princess PITA, Orc gets to cut her down in one shot if Knight chooses to take action. If your example allows the hero to take down that third mook BEFORE he gets an attack on the girl (she's covered - his attack hits at will now), then it's not consistent with our Orc example either. And oh, look - he doesn't get to attack the girl. Under Hero rules, he should get to complete his attack before those summoned creatures get to act at all. Even your own example fails to accord with the RAW you raise it to defend, instead showing the hero defeating his opponents with no harm to the innocent he is protecting.

 

Would you care to provide some examples? Given you can't imagine one instance where this is not the case, I assume you have tons of examples where it is. In my experience, the innocent sometimes get threatened, but the hero is able to act to make this more difficult or even impossible, not just stand around waiting for the bad guy to make a move on that other person. "One move and the girl gets it" tends to be limited to opponents who somehow get the drop on the hero, whether by outnumbering him (your own example has him outnumbered 3 to 1) or surprising him by going after the girl, not by just walking straight past the adversary he's in combat with.

 

If the source material made it that easy for any mook, minor villain, or even anyone of comparable power, to just ignore the hero he's already in combat with and go after the DNPC instead, the DNPC's would all be dead, or the heroes long since surrendered and dealt with.

 

By the same logic, why can't the Knight simply walk past the three Orcs threatening him (either they've already moved, or he'll let the three shots go - some will miss and he's tough enough to weather a couple of hits), walk straight up to the enemy wizard and attack him, ignoring all his defenders? The hero never has to deal with the villain's bodyguards/summoned monsters/whatever in order to get to the physically weaker mastermind villain in the source material, does he? It's easy to just walk past that "similar power opponent" who has engaged the hero in combat and shut off the Doomsday Device - you do that first, before you fight the villain, so there's no concern that the device will go off before you can defeat that opponent. That's why the source material rarely, if ever, has any dramatic tension beyond whether the Hero can ultimately defeat the Villain - the Doomsday Device always gets shut off at the outset.

 

Maybe we're not reading/viewing the same source material.

[Sean Waters]

Re: Facing and Passing

 

Christopher: 200 point Knight with SPD 4 and OCV/DCV 8 and DEF 9 Plate Mail vs a 100 point SPD 3 Orc with OCV/DCV 5 with DEF 2 leathers. Knight is protecting Princess PITA, so steps forward and slashes at the Orc but tolls a 15.

 

The Orc is not bright, but bright enough to realise that he is going to get smooshed, so walks round the Knight, completely ignoring him, and walks up to Princess PITA (1/2 move) and then used the 'Cover' maneouvre on PP. That is at -2 OCV, but PP is OCV/DCV 2, and he rolls a 9 anyway, so he has her covered, and can do the damage to her at any time thereafter. Unless a distraction can be arranged, PP and her Knight are basically at the mercy of the Orc.

 

That is simple RAW: if you don't think it should happen like that (and most people won't, I imagine) then, well, that's my point.

 

Now you can argue that Knight should hold his action as he has a speed advantage, but that makes no odds: the Orc walks round the Knight anyway and the Knight reacts by attacking: not many other options, really. If he hits it is probably all over, but if he misses, then the Orc has the upper hand, and he's playing a numbers game here - it is his only chance, and he is taking it.

 

I mean that, even if you were using DnD type Attack Of Opportunity rules, this could still happen, but at least Knight gets an additional chance to stop him.

[Tasha]

Re: Facing and Passing

 

OK, so should the hero be able to wait for the Orcs to attack, then say "OK, I walk neatly between them and attack the wizard 3 meters behind them"? Either it is simplicty itself to walk past threatening opponents or it is not. I think it is not, and I think it is reasonable to expect the game rules to reflect that.

 

What difference does it make what the Knight does? If we use the optional rules on 6e2 128, what happens? The Knight gets an OCV bonus when he uses his held action, or the Orc gets a DCV penalty. We've already established that one hit from the Knight doesn't take the Orc down anyway, so he's precisely as wounded as he would have been if the Knight had attacked him in the first place. He now proceeds to walk past, and cover Princess PITA anyway.

 

Or he takes advantage of the Knight's weakness, avoids the impact of the knight's action overall and gets the Princess later.

 

Guess it just sucks to be a knight!

 

First the Orc needs to make an Attack Roll at -2 OCV(plus any other Hit Location mods) vs the Princess's whole DCV. I would Imagine that she would dodge of an Orc came running up to her and stuck a sword at her body. So it's not as easy as all of that. 6e2 pg 85

 

The Knight that passes though the Orc's defensive line should have to make at least a Casual Strength roll to pass though the occupied hexes/past the line. If they miss the roll they are stuck in front of two Orcs that couldn't be shruged aside.

[Tasha]

Re: Facing and Passing

 

Christopher: 200 point Knight with SPD 4 and OCV/DCV 8 and DEF 9 Plate Mail vs a 100 point SPD 3 Orc with OCV/DCV 5 with DEF 2 leathers. Knight is protecting Princess PITA, so steps forward and slashes at the Orc but tolls a 15.

 

The Orc is not bright, but bright enough to realise that he is going to get smooshed, so walks round the Knight, completely ignoring him, and walks up to Princess PITA (1/2 move) and then used the 'Cover' maneouvre on PP. That is at -2 OCV, but PP is OCV/DCV 2, and he rolls a 9 anyway, so he has her covered, and can do the damage to her at any time thereafter. Unless a distraction can be arranged, PP and her Knight are basically at the mercy of the Orc.

 

That is simple RAW: if you don't think it should happen like that (and most people won't, I imagine) then, well, that's my point.

 

Now you can argue that Knight should hold his action as he has a speed advantage, but that makes no odds: the Orc walks round the Knight anyway and the Knight reacts by attacking: not many other options, really. If he hits it is probably all over, but if he misses, then the Orc has the upper hand, and he's playing a numbers game here - it is his only chance, and he is taking it.

 

I mean that, even if you were using DnD type Attack Of Opportunity rules, this could still happen, but at least Knight gets an additional chance to stop him.

 

I think the biggiest problem is that you are presenting the Orc as a being with Metagame Knowledge. The Orc really shouldn't know that the Knight has a phase or not. Just that the Knight is protecting the Princess from him. So the Orc should do the RolePlay thing of brushing past the Knight, having to make a strength roll to move the knight aside. Also a princess no matter how useless will at least run away with her saved phase if an Orc comes after her. These things all have roleplaying answers. Not everything needs to be spelled out in the rules.

[Christopher]

Re: Facing and Passing

 

Except with the RAW*, if there are two orcs it does not just become challenging for the knight to protect Princess PITA, it basically becomes impossible even if he greatly outclasses the orcs.

 

All the orcs have to do is hold until they have a phase together (and in most cases they will have the same Speed so they don't even need to hold). Orc #1 moves towards the Princess. If the knight ignores him he Covers the princess and now the Knight can't do anything or the princess gets it. If he attacks the Orc #1 before the orc Covers the princess, the orc dodges or dives for cover. Then Orc #2 moves to Cover the princess and the knight can do nothing about it since he has already attacked that segment. So no matter what the knight does he can not protect the princess when faced with 2+ opponents. This does not model the source material at all.

How many low powered orc are also great tacticans/teamplayer enough to pull this off? in 95% of the cases they stand next to each other, so one Spread to Area Attack/Multiple attack can easily kill them both or force them to abort. If they even are handeled at one sheet each.

 

Also being outcalssed means you have less SPD and DEX. And propably so much less CV that you need to abort to dodge just to SURVIVE the attack of the hero. When you use your held phase to abort, you can't take it too. When you don't abort you are propably dead or stunned. And your 4 SPD foe is able to abort again faster than you.

Knight wins.

 

The only chance it would be impossible for the hero to take down both would be if they stood on different sides of him.

Considering how mooks that work togehter ALWAYS cluster togehter (because it is stupid to go against the hero 1 on 1) that would mean the GM plays them ways above thier power level.

 

I don't recall the Knight being "outnumbered" by ONE orc. I also think there is a lot of space between "one attack action is virtually guaranteed to remove Orc from the fight" and "Orc is of similar power".

 

I don't find the result of "Outclassed opponent easily slips by and is now able to kill the innocent unless the hero surrenders" very common in the source material. Having covered Princess PITA, Orc gets to cut her down in one shot if Knight chooses to take action.

Not if the orc is surprised enough. The (superior) hero has Interaction Skills, Presence attacks and sheer power on his side to kill the orc/get it to surrender despite the hostage. There are enough established ways to break cover both in Source Material and the Rules, so even in the 10% of all times one weak orc slips by the hero to cover the princess, I still think the hero will win eventually. It just get's a little bit more intersting.

 

And oh' date=' look - he doesn't get to attack the girl. Under Hero rules, he should get to complete his attack before those summoned creatures get to act at all. Even your own example fails to accord with the RAW you raise it to defend, instead showing the hero defeating his opponents with no harm to the innocent he is protecting.[/quote']

Those aren't Summons. Those are followers/non recombing Duplciates that stayed hidden (invisible) but fully able to act.

I did mention "badass 400 point hero vs. 50 point mook" up there, right?

 

"One move and the girl gets it" tends to be limited to opponents who somehow get the drop on the hero' date=' whether by outnumbering him (your own example has him outnumbered 3 to 1) or surprising him by going after the girl, not by just walking straight past the adversary he's in combat with.[/quote']

When you are in combat against an equal foe you have to spend phases just to stay alive/unhit.

 

Christopher: 200 point Knight with SPD 4 and OCV/DCV 8 and DEF 9 Plate Mail vs a 100 point SPD 3 Orc with OCV/DCV 5 with DEF 2 leathers. Knight is protecting Princess PITA' date=' so steps forward and slashes at the Orc but tolls a 15.[/quote']

The propability of a 15 roll is 5%. Yes it the same chance as 1 or 20 on D20.

And I discussed ways to break a cover above.

 

The Orc is not bright' date=' but bright enough to realise that he is going to get smooshed, so walks round the Knight, completely ignoring him, and walks up to Princess PITA (1/2 move) and then used the 'Cover' maneouvre on PP.[/quote']

You should better look at coverign an area again. The area covered is twice the heroes HTH range.

Swords give +1m Reach, so he covers a 4m radius around his postion (1m default +1m Sword times two). Everyone who enters get's a sword in the face.

 

Even if the princess adjacent hexes where outside this area* and even if the orc had the movement freedom to completely circumvent the are that is covered**, he won't be able to cover her that phase. Because you can't run around a 4m Radius area with only 12m Running at half move.

 

*so there is a point where he could Cover her without entering the protected area

**wich is unlikely. Everyone covering a helpless target will seek a position where he can protect the area effectively.

[Christopher]

Re: Facing and Passing

 

Also, regarding blocking for somebody else:

You only have to be in reach to the attacker OR the target. Again, with the sword you have 2m reach.