Hugh Neilson Posted May 30, 2012 Report Share Posted May 30, 2012 Re: Facing and Passing Fine points. Just that we wer talking about the "how Usable as other form of Movement is Drained" thing' date=' so it has nothing to do with what we said.[/quote'] Oh, excuse me. I thought the statement that You and Hugh persistently asume that every GM they do not know will be a fool/incabable of deal with X in a balanced fashion and that his players will hate him for it. And that it is the rules palce to prevent it. I on the other hand have absolute faith that those people I do not know are capable people. That they are capable GM's. That most people come with a little thinking to the results/solutions I figure out with Casual INT (I am smart and I know it.). went beyond a single rules question on the application of an uncommon power to an infrequent advantage. I don't know HOW I could have gotten that from your comment above. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sean Waters Posted May 31, 2012 Author Report Share Posted May 31, 2012 Re: Facing and Passing - Not every single thing that might possibly be missunderstood needs a rulestext for it. You and Hugh persistently asume that every GM they do not know will be a fool/incabable of deal with X in a balanced fashion and that his players will hate him for it. And that it is the rules palce to prevent it. I on the other hand have absolute faith that those people I do not know are capable people. That they are capable GM's. That most people come with a little thinking to the results/solutions I figure out with Casual INT (I am smart and I know it.). Well by that argument we don't need rules at all. The point of rules - and discussing them - is to encourage everyone playing the game to take a consistent approach to it - or at least to be aware of when they are doing things differently to RAW/the community at large. This is not about a superior attitude on my part, or on Hugh's - an suggestion I strongly resent, by the way - it is about talking things through. Not everyone agrees with me, not everyone agrees with you. Not everyone is a capable GM yet - we all started somewhere. I have done a lot of GMing and playing over the years and this is still a problem that did not have an obvious answer you could take straight from the rules, at least to me. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Markdoc Posted May 31, 2012 Report Share Posted May 31, 2012 Re: Facing and Passing Well by that argument we don't need rules at all. The point of rules - and discussing them - is to encourage everyone playing the game to take a consistent approach to it - or at least to be aware of when they are doing things differently to RAW/the community at large. This is not about a superior attitude on my part, or on Hugh's - an suggestion I strongly resent, by the way - it is about talking things through. Not everyone agrees with me, not everyone agrees with you. Not everyone is a capable GM yet - we all started somewhere. I have done a lot of GMing and playing over the years and this is still a problem that did not have an obvious answer you could take straight from the rules, at least to me. Equally to the point, this is a gaming board, and we're in the "system discussion" section, so one should expect that discussion of RAW and rules minutæ are the order of the day. Saying "Ah, just wing it" might be appropriate in a thread where someone is asking advice for their own game, but there's not really much point to such a comment in a rules discussion! As for the original question, I stand by my original response: the effect of the drain depends on how the drain is defined when it is built. The only addition I'd make is that "Flight usable as swimming" does not IMO - turn it into swimming. It means simply that the flight mode can be used underwater. It's still flight. As an example, a regular plane flies. Sky Captain's amazing hot-rodded airplane flies - and can also fly underwater! It's doesn't wiggle its tail fins or flap its rigid aluminium wings: it just flies. Drains are to a large extent a metagamey effect (and to be fair, often mimic a meta effect from source material: how exactly does one turn off "a mutant power" anyway? Whatever, it happens all the time in the Marvel Universe) and needs to be looked at in that light. Thus (to reiterate) "drain swimming" does not drain "Flight usable as swimming", since the power in question is still Flight. If however, the drain was defined as thickening the water to retard any movement through it, that should be bought as "vs special effect" not "vs a single power" - in this case a pretty limited special effect, but still ... cheers, Mark Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Hugh Neilson Posted May 31, 2012 Report Share Posted May 31, 2012 Re: Facing and Passing I wonder if puffins have Flight and Swimming, or Flight usable as Swimming. They seem to dive into the water and just keep going, using more or less the same wing and body movements. Bestiary II will hopefully answer this clearly pressing question! Markdoc makes a point that often gets lost in these discussions. If the Drain doesn't work as expected on Power A, perhaps the Drain, and not Power A, is the inaccurate construction. Shouldn't that thickened water retard falling through it from above and wading through water 2' or 3' deep? Neither of those represent a movement "usable as swimming". Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Hugh Neilson Posted June 1, 2012 Report Share Posted June 1, 2012 Re: Facing and Passing Not every single thing that might possibly be missunderstood needs a rulestext for it. OK, it is late in the day on May 31/12 (for posterity), and I just popped back here from the Rules Question board. How many different people are posting under your login name? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bigbywolfe Posted June 1, 2012 Report Share Posted June 1, 2012 Re: Facing and Passing Can't spread rep to Hugh Neilson again. *Sigh* Spot on man, spot on. Bravo! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Christopher Posted June 1, 2012 Report Share Posted June 1, 2012 Re: Facing and Passing This is not about a superior attitude on my part' date=' or on Hugh's - an suggestion I strongly resent, by the way - it is about talking things through. Not everyone agrees with me, not everyone agrees with you. Not everyone is a capable GM yet - we all started somewhere. I have done a lot of GMing and playing over the years and this is still a problem that did not have an obvious answer you could take straight from the rules, at least to me.[/quote'] No talking abotu superior attitude. Just trying to make a houserule for every last and possible thing. Especially those that are solved by raw before they even get a problem. And that only might be a problem if the GM doesn't thinks or is in a "play against his players" situation. Equally to the point' date=' this is a gaming board, and we're in the "system discussion" section, so one should [b']expect [/b]that discussion of RAW and rules minutæ are the order of the day. Saying "Ah, just wing it" might be appropriate in a thread where someone is asking advice for their own game, but there's not really much point to such a comment in a rules discussion! I hardly ever say "wing it". I am pretty certain I always try to find a RAW before even thinking of feathers. When I have 4 answers, three of them are with a Book and Page Number. Drains are to a large extent a metagamey effect (and to be fair' date=' often mimic a meta effect from source material: how exactly does one turn off "a mutant power" anyway? Whatever, it happens all the time in the Marvel Universe) and needs to be looked at in that light. Thus (to reiterate) "drain swimming" does not drain "Flight usable as swimming", since the power in question is still Flight. If however, the drain was defined as thickening the water to retard [i']any movement through it[/i], that should be bought as "vs special effect" not "vs a single power" - in this case a pretty limited special effect, but still ... When a power affects all (non-teleport) movement, it is simply a Telekinesis Grab. Or a expanded Effect Drain. You would be suprised how many "Drain [Movement power]" are just better handeled by Tk-Grab or limited Entangle. When you write up the "make water thick" power as Drain Swimming, then some minor SFX-interaction in every flight, Usable as Swimming will negate that effect on Flight used as swimming. Such stuff also happens all the time in the source material. It doesn't needs to make sense, just be consistent. When superman "flies" underwater, it can very well be that special effects of his swimming make water resistance a non-issue. So if the water is thick or not has no effect at all. Thinking about it: 20m Fligh, UASwimming only gives you 20m Swimming when the same amount of CP/Endurance cost would give you 40m Swimming. The reason could be simple: Normal Swimming works with the water resistance. It is based on water having a resistance against being moved. When you move your arm faster than the water can evade, the rest energy goes into directed movement. Your Flight, UAS does is not affected by water resistance. You don't suffer from thicker water, but you also can't go "faster" by making swim gestures (or that little that you do make, compensates only what you by not fully concentrating on your flight). If you built the Same Flight and Swimming as Multipower (and thus do swim faster than you fly), then something in the special effect of your swimming allows you to move faster in water. Perhaps you somehow use the Physical Properties of Water to propell yourself faster. Perhaps you use something like the Di-Pol Drive from Aquanox. Or the character is a cryptionian/atalantean hybrid that uses his krytonian powers in the air and his atlantean power udner water. Markdoc makes a point that often gets lost in these discussions. If the Drain doesn't work as expected on Power A' date=' perhaps the Drain, and not Power A, is the inaccurate construction. Shouldn't that thickened water retard falling through it from above and wading through water 2' or 3' deep? Neither of those represent a movement "usable as swimming".[/quote'] In every discussion about superscience or supermagic, there is only one rule: As long as the idea is at least founded in realism, it works as shown. Example Wolverines Regeneration: We humans heal wounds (known fact). Mutants have Superpowers. Wolverines Superpower is Superhealing. He managed to heal from a single cell. With his memories intact! Memories, the stuff you store in a multiple killogram organ called brain. As a sequence of chemicals. Not to mention that this new bodymass had to come from somewhere. And 70% of that bodymass is water (that has to come from somewhere). If he had no source for this new Bodymass, he just violated the laws of Thermodinamics - because he just created mater from nowhere. OK' date=' it is late in the day on May 31/12 (for posterity), and I just popped back here from the Rules Question board. How many different people are posting under your login name?[/quote'] The same single person that, by your words, "always defends the rules". You might have mistake me with him: http://www.herogames.com/forums/member.php/145-Christougher (I mistook that name myself when first reading it). Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Hugh Neilson Posted June 1, 2012 Report Share Posted June 1, 2012 Re: Facing and Passing Lots of parts I'm just not going to touch in that post... When a power affects all (non-teleport) movement' date=' it is simply a Telekinesis Grab. Or a expanded Effect Drain. You would be suprised how many "Drain [Movement power']" are just better handeled by Tk-Grab or limited Entangle. None of the ones that slow movement, rather than either stopping it entirely or leaving it unimpeded. None that can't be "broken" or "escaped", either. You might have mistake me with him: http://www.herogames.com/forums/member.php/145-Christougher (I mistook that name myself when first reading it). He's not the fellow with four consecutive rules questions on the Rules Question board. I leave it to each reader to assess whether those questions are things that need formal rulings or some of those things that might possibly be missunderstood but do not need a rulestext. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bigbywolfe Posted June 1, 2012 Report Share Posted June 1, 2012 Re: Facing and Passing You and Hugh persistently asume that every GM they do not know will be a fool/incabable of deal with X in a balanced fashion and that his players will hate him for it. And that it is the rules palce to prevent it. I on the other hand have absolute faith that those people I do not know are capable people. That they are capable GM's. That most people come with a little thinking to the results/solutions I figure out with Casual INT (I am smart and I know it.). This is not about a superior attitude on my part' date=' or on Hugh's - an suggestion I strongly resent, by the way - it is about talking things through. Not everyone agrees with me, not everyone agrees with you. Not everyone is a capable GM yet - we all started somewhere. I have done a lot of GMing and playing over the years and this is still a problem that did not have an obvious answer you could take straight from the rules, at least to me.[/quote'] No talking abotu superior attitude. Just trying to make a houserule for every last and possible thing. Especially those that are solved by raw before they even get a problem. And that only might be a problem if the GM doesn't thinks or is in a "play against his players" situation. Regardless of your claim that it isn't about "superior attitude", you never retracted the rather rude allegation and your response seems to still be accusing them of believing that other GMs are inferior or "don't think". Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bigbywolfe Posted June 1, 2012 Report Share Posted June 1, 2012 Re: Facing and Passing The same single person that, by your words, "always defends the rules". You might have mistake me with him: http://www.herogames.com/forums/member.php/145-Christougher (I mistook that name myself when first reading it). Out of the last 35 post in the Rules Question Forum (which is how many show when I check the page) you have asked 13 of them, 37%, over a third. Christougher, who you think we might have confused you with has asked zero (0, none, 0%) of the currently shown questions. I'm pretty sure Hugh wasn't mistaken... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Doc Democracy Posted June 1, 2012 Report Share Posted June 1, 2012 Re: Facing and Passing You might have mistake me with him: http://www.herogames.com/forums/member.php/145-Christougher (I mistook that name myself when first reading it). That must have been weird! "WTF, I can't remember writing THAT!"......."Whoops, it wasn't me" :) Doc Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ninja-Bear Posted June 2, 2012 Report Share Posted June 2, 2012 Re: Facing and Passing Sean what did you think about the wounding rule? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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