Facing and Passing

[Doc Democracy]

Re: Facing and Passing

 

I think the biggiest problem is that you are presenting the Orc as a being with Metagame Knowledge. The Orc really shouldn't know that the Knight has a phase or not. Just that the Knight is protecting the Princess from him. So the Orc should do the RolePlay thing of brushing past the Knight' date=' having to make a strength roll to move the knight aside. Also a princess no matter how useless will at least run away with her saved phase if an Orc comes after her. These things all have roleplaying answers. Not everything needs to be spelled out in the rules.[/quote']

 

The biggest problem with roleplay solutions is that the players will find a roleplay solution to access the rules that best suit them. It is often better for the rules to provide sufficient practical disincentives for such easy choices.

 

If I was a player then I would be looking to see how I might gain access to the wizard without fighting my way through the tough minions. If it is as easy as making a half move through the right hexes then I will do that before seeking to engage the minions.

 

It is always easy to argue individual situations where the rules would work, it seems more difficult to agree on places where the rules may not work. However, no-one loses if the rules have a hole that the fan community can suggest plugs for. That way the game gets potentially better for everyone. If you do not see the holes in your game then you do not have to use them. If others recognise a hole then it behoves others to challenge the solutions rather than challenge the challenge to the rules.

 

Doc

[Sean Waters]

Re: Facing and Passing

 

I think the biggiest problem is that you are presenting the Orc as a being with Metagame Knowledge. The Orc really shouldn't know that the Knight has a phase or not. Just that the Knight is protecting the Princess from him. So the Orc should do the RolePlay thing of brushing past the Knight' date=' having to make a strength roll to move the knight aside. Also a princess no matter how useless will at least run away with her saved phase if an Orc comes after her. These things all have roleplaying answers. Not everything needs to be spelled out in the rules.[/quote']

 

I agree it is not all that easy: the Orc requires some luck and more smarts than most Orcs...but, say, the Orc does a PRE attack (which takes no time) as he is approaching PP and she freezes for long enough for him to cover her, the Orc does not have metagame knowledge, it is just he has a lot of combat experience and knows what works - and it works because the rules say it does, but that is coincidence.

 

If you can do it all with roleplaying, then you don;t really need a rules system, beyond a very basic one, and Hero is not a very basic rules system. There are rules for all kinds of stuff: why not this?

[Christopher]

Re: Facing and Passing

 

If I was a player then I would be looking to see how I might gain access to the wizard without fighting my way through the tough minions. If it is as easy as making a half move through the right hexes then I will do that before seeking to engage the minions.

Like I said, Covering an area means two times your hth reach as radius in 6E. So likely 2 hexes/4 meters in each direction. Place the three protectors in equidistant hexes adjacant to the wizard and there is no way you can avoid more than one of them hitting you before you get into range. And even then the third can still abort to block for his wizard (as you can always abort a held phase and he is in hth-reach to your target).

[Sean Waters]

Re: Facing and Passing

 

Also, regarding blocking for somebody else:

You only have to be in reach to the attacker OR the target. Again, with the sword you have 2m reach.

 

Yes, but you need actions in hand for both that and the optional 'covering an area 'rule, and, as I have pointed out, that is not going to work out well for you. Either the Knight keeps holding actions, in which case there is a stalemate, or attacks and, if the Orc survives, the Orc has a very good chance of winning.

 

The Knight's only real hope is that the Orc does not think this through and hurls himself into a hopeless battle - which seems daft.

[Christopher]

Re: Facing and Passing

 

Yes, but you need actions in hand for both that and the optional 'covering an area 'rule', and, as I have pointed out, that is not going to work out well for you. Either the Knight keeps holding actions, in which case there is a stalemate, or attacks and, if the Orc survives, the Orc has a very good chance of winning.

 

The Knight's only real hope is that the Orc does not think this through and hurls himself into a hopeless battle - which seems daft.

The knights best hope is not to fight with his DNCP within half move range of the orc. When you fight the orc 7-12 meters aways from the DNCP he has to make a full move to even get in range for Cover Maneuver. He still has to make the real maneuver. Wich mean he has to survive, propably unable to abort to a defensive action and "attack from behidn bonus" when you come after him. Don't turn away from your enemy.

 

Also regarding "dagger at the throath". This is a Cover Maneuver that targets a hit location. So it of course suffers the full hit location penalty (or maybe half of it if the princess is shocked that much). That makes -6 OCV or -10 OCV to Cover somebodies throath.

 

When your foe is in the same room with the person you want to protect you have seriously failed in the "protecting" part. You put your DNCP's into a save room with as few entrences as possible and then guard the enterances, not fight with your DNCP in the line of fire.

[Doc Democracy]

Re: Facing and Passing

 

Like I said' date=' Covering an area means two times your hth reach as radius in 6E. So likely 2 hexes/4 meters in each direction. Place the three protectors in equidistant hexes adjacant to the wizard and there is no way you can avoid more than one of them hitting you before you get into range. And even then the third can still abort to block for his wizard (as you can always abort a held phase and he is in hth-reach to your target).[/quote']

 

But you agree that it is a viable option to walk through to the wizard on your phase taking the chance that one of the defenders might get a hit on you. It makes the screen less useful for the wizard when people can just walk through with only the risk of a single hit. If I am a well armoured hero then I may be happy to chance one hit to gain access to the real danger - the wizard...

 

Doc

[Sean Waters]

Re: Facing and Passing

 

The knights best hope is not to fight with his DNCP within half move range of the orc. When you fight the orc 7-12 meters aways from the DNCP he has to make a full move to even get in range for Cover Maneuver. He still has to make the real maneuver. Wich mean he has to survive, propably unable to abort to a defensive action and "attack from behidn bonus" when you come after him. Don't turn away from your enemy.

 

Also regarding "dagger at the throath". This is a Cover Maneuver that targets a hit location. So it of course suffers the full hit location penalty (or maybe half of it if the princess is shocked that much). That makes -6 OCV or -10 OCV to Cover somebodies throath.

 

When your foe is in the same room with the person you want to protect you have seriously failed in the "protecting" part. You put your DNCP's into a save room with as few entrences as possible and then guard the enterances, not fight with your DNCP in the line of fire.

 

Well, yes, the Knight's best solution is not to be in the situation I am describing, but, unfortunately, he is. Maybe he came in late. Maybe the Orc was hiding, the point is you can not say that the rule (or lack thereof) is not a problem because a character shouldn't get himself into that situation. He IS in that situation. Should the orc be at some sort of disadvantage from simply ignoring the Knight and walking past? If the answer is 'No', then the rules are fine. If it is 'Yes', they are not.

[Christopher]

Re: Facing and Passing

 

But you agree that it is a viable option to walk through to the wizard on your phase taking the chance that one of the defenders might get a hit on you. It makes the screen less useful for the wizard when people can just walk through with only the risk of a single hit. If I am a well armoured hero then I may be happy to chance one hit to gain access to the real danger - the wizard...

If I can ignore the attacks without the need to abort, they are not usefull protection no matter how desperately they try to defend him.

Of course a wise defender would use even longer weapons (helbards and spears) and consider things like tripping his opponent (where Armor is irrelevant).

 

Well' date=' yes, the Knight's best solution is not to be in the situation I am describing, but, unfortunately, he is. Maybe he came in late. Maybe the Orc was hiding, the point is you can not say that the rule (or lack thereof) is not a problem because a character shouldn't get himself into that situation. He IS in that situation. Should the orc be at some sort of disadvantage from simply ignoring the Knight and walking past? If the answer is 'No', then the rules are fine. If it is 'Yes', they are not.[/quote']

That are oddly always the situations where an enemy does take the DNCP hostage. So the rules allow, what works in the material.

[Ninja-Bear]

Re: Facing and Passing

 

Well' date=' yes, the Knight's best solution is not to be in the situation I am describing, but, unfortunately, he is. Maybe he came in late. Maybe the Orc was hiding, the point is you can not say that the rule (or lack thereof) is not a problem because a character shouldn't get himself into that situation. He IS in that situation. Should the orc be at some sort of disadvantage from simply ignoring the Knight and walking past? If the answer is 'No', then the rules are fine. If it is 'Yes', they are not.[/quote']

 

Sean just thinking what if the situation was reversed? What if the knight has to go past the Orc to save the Princess? Are we going to penaltize him? IIrc some wargames (and I'm thinking warhammer 40k) have bad things happen if you try to go past an enemy. So if your looking for a rule, perhaps if you want to disengage from a melee attack, you have to make a sleight of hand or Pre roll to successfully and safely leave the encounter.

[Christopher]

Re: Facing and Passing

 

Also one thing regarding moving into a Covered Area is to mind your DCV while doing so:

You put your base DCV against the Full OCV of your target. Maybe even more if he used Interposing.

You cannot add DCV via CSL (as you don't do anything to wich you can apply CSL). He can.

You can't get a DCV bonus for Dodge and Move/Block and Move/Defense Strike and Move into the area as Dodge, Block and attacks are attack actions.

And if you try things like Move By (in the Charge Variant) it even drops your DCV.

 

That means the defender might make a Called Shot, Trip or other maneuver that stops you dead or is able to stop you. Going into a Covered Area is not as funny as it sounds.

[Manic Typist]

Re: Facing and Passing

 

Hm.

 

Two things.

 

One, if an opponent is willing to run past you and expose himself for a tactical advantage (potentially), well... that sounds familiar from both source material and the real world. Perhaps he should specifically take a negative to DCV since he is deliberately ignoring his opponent's attack in order to pass closely to the opponent to reach his target (the Princess).

 

Two, even if he doesn't take a negative to DCV (which again, might just be the thing we are looking at- he is engaged in an action that seems to limit his ability to behave/move defensively), he still has to risk receiving an attack to which he cannot respond... and for what? To arrive at another potential impasse. "Move and I'll kill the girl!" "Kill the girl and you die!" Having to defend a PITA Princess is a tactical disadvantage, and that seems to be accurately reflected in this scenario.

[Hugh Neilson]

Re: Facing and Passing

 

I think the biggest problem is that you are presenting the Orc as a being with Metagame Knowledge. The Orc really shouldn't know that the Knight has a phase or not. Just that the Knight is protecting the Princess from him. So the Orc should do the RolePlay thing of brushing past the Knight' date=' having to make a strength roll to move the knight aside. Also a princess no matter how useless will at least run away with her saved phase if an Orc comes after her. These things all have roleplaying answers. Not everything needs to be spelled out in the rules.[/quote']

 

Why should the Orc, or the PC, or anyone else, have to shoulder the other character aside? If this is to be a requirement, it should be in the rules. Perhaps the Orc has been tasked with the suicide mission of killing the Princess. He's not here to kill the Knight - he's just in the way. If he could reliably slash through him, he would. If not, well, his job is to kill the princess.

 

And she can't run because the Orc made a gutteral snarling PRE attack at the outset and scared the hell out of the Princess - she hesitated, then ran into a corner of the room so she has no way out.

 

We can envision millions of scenarios, but "hero must protect noncombatant threatened by/targeted by hostile opponent" seems like a standard trope for an array of genres.

 

How many low powered orc are also great tacticans/teamplayer enough to pull this off? in 95% of the cases they stand next to each other, so one Spread to Area Attack/Multiple attack can easily kill them both or force them to abort. If they even are handeled at one sheet each.

 

Also being outcalssed means you have less SPD and DEX. And propably so much less CV that you need to abort to dodge just to SURVIVE the attack of the hero. When you use your held phase to abort, you can't take it too. When you don't abort you are propably dead or stunned. And your 4 SPD foe is able to abort again faster than you.

 

Sean gave us some stats: 200 point Knight with SPD 4 and OCV/DCV 8 and DEF 9 Plate Mail vs a 100 point SPD 3 Orc with OCV/DCV 5 with DEF 2 leathers. Let's expand that our Knight has a Shield adding 2 to his DCV, and a Longsword, plus a 17 STR, so he does 1 1/2d6 damage to the orc. He's got a fencing suite, so he can bump that to 2d6+1 pretty easily. The orc has a battle axe and an 18 STR, so he does 2d6+1 on a successful hit. Princess PITA is a slight, frail girl based on "standard normal" stats so she has CV 3, BOD 8 and no rDEF.

 

One hit from Sir Knight with his absolute maximum damage of 2 1/2 d6 averages 9 BOD. Absent a lucky hit location, the orc is badly hurt, but alive. So he is going to get to act after Sir Knight, which is when he circles around to cover Princess PITA. He's prepared to take his chances on hit location, so he strikes to Cover or, since his goal is to kill Princess PITAS, after all, he doesn't Cover at all, but uses his 5 OCV* to strike at PP's 6 (with Dodge) DCV - 50% chance for a hit that does 2d6+1 BOD, dropping her to 0 BOD with an average hit. Lucky roll (high damage and/or good hit location) and she's done for.

 

OCV 5 seems pretty light for an offense-oriented Orc - but he's a mook - if he has good odds to hit Sir Knight, his OCV needs to be much better, which enhances the likelihood of running PP through.

 

The only chance it would be impossible for the hero to take down both would be if they stood on different sides of him.

Considering how mooks that work togehter ALWAYS cluster togehter (because it is stupid to go against the hero 1 on 1) that would mean the GM plays them ways above thier power level.

 

Two of them? Well, if their mission is to kill the princess, splitting up seems like the answer, so they'll be on either side. But we're assuming just one Orc mook. JUST ONE outclassed Orc mook - who has a 50/50 chance to take out the Princess while Sir Knight stands ineffectually watching!

 

Oh, and why are the mooks assumed completely stupid with no combat savvy whatsoever, but Sir Knight is a brilliant tactician who never chooses a sub-optimal tactic for the sake of, say, honor or chivalry?

 

Not if the orc is surprised enough. The (superior) hero has Interaction Skills' date=' Presence attacks and sheer power on his side to kill the orc/get it to surrender despite the hostage. There are enough established ways to break cover both in Source Material and the Rules, so even in the 10% of all times one weak orc slips by the hero to cover the princess, I still think the hero will win eventually. It just get's a little bit more intersting.[/quote']

 

Surrender? The Orc believes he'll fare better if taken alive? Why? And let's assume it's mission is to kill the Princess - it's not waiting and it's not negotiating - it strikes as soon as it gets a shot. Interaction skills? So the Knight will persuade the Orc that they should be friends? Seems unlikely. PRE contest? OK, first off, I think if the princess is covered, our Knight is at a disadvantage (at best), so that's -1d6. He's in combat (-1d6). Does the Orc have relevant psych complications? Let's assume no - we're just trying to scare him. So if we assume our Hero has a 20 PRE (a true leader of men), he's starting with 2d6 against, say, 13 PRE for the Orc. He needs 2d6 worth of bonuses to have a shot, and that's giving him the benefit of the doubt. And if he fails, the Princess dies.

 

 

You should better look at coverign an area again. The area covered is twice the heroes HTH range.

Swords give +1m Reach, so he covers a 4m radius around his postion (1m default +1m Sword times two). Everyone who enters get's a sword in the face.

 

You should better look. This is an optional rule to begin with, and adds the further option that "If a character has a longer Reach due to a weapon, Stretching, or the like, the GM can choose to increase the size of the “guarded” area". There is no guarantee you get that larger area. Regardless, however, if that first hit would take the Orc down anyway, then there is no reason for the Knight to use his phase to guard the area rather than attack the Orc and take it down. I think we've established the Orc has a reasonable probability of surviving that one attack.

 

The knights best hope is not to fight with his DNCP within half move range of the orc. When you fight the orc 7-12 meters aways from the DNCP he has to make a full move to even get in range for Cover Maneuver. He still has to make the real maneuver. Wich mean he has to survive' date=' propably unable to abort to a defensive action and "attack from behidn bonus" when you come after him. Don't turn away from your enemy.[/quote']

 

Now let's assume the battle takes place indoors, not on a clear field with unrestricted movement. How likely is it the Princess can be far enough away that the Orc has trouble closing? And if the Orc needed a full move to close with the Princess, doesn't the Knight need a full move to close with the Orc? And what "attack from behind" bonus - Hero doesn't have facing rules, remember? The Orc is presumed smart enough to watch his back knowing there is a fully armed and armored Knight likely to chase him. Finally, seriously, your best advice for the Knight trying to protect the Princess is to keep her 10+ meters away from him at all time?

 

Also regarding "dagger at the throath". This is a Cover Maneuver that targets a hit location. So it of course suffers the full hit location penalty (or maybe half of it if the princess is shocked that much). That makes -6 OCV or -10 OCV to Cover somebodies throath.

 

Only if you want the bonuses for "throat". Nothing requires the Orc to make a called shot. All he wants is the guaranteed hit if Sir Knight doesn't toss his sword aside (or maybe he just wants to close in and strike, forget threatening the Knight over the princess' life).

 

When your foe is in the same room with the person you want to protect you have seriously failed in the "protecting" part. You put your DNCP's into a save room with as few entrences as possible and then guard the enterances' date=' not fight with your DNCP in the line of fire.[/quote']

 

Once that opponent is in the doorway, where does Princess PITA run? And, again, you are positing a very specific scenario where it is both possible and practical to sequester the Princess for an indefinite period of time.

 

But you agree that it is a viable option to walk through to the wizard on your phase taking the chance that one of the defenders might get a hit on you. It makes the screen less useful for the wizard when people can just walk through with only the risk of a single hit. If I am a well armoured hero then I may be happy to chance one hit to gain access to the real danger - the wizard...

 

Yup

 

If I can ignore the attacks without the need to abort' date=' they are not usefull protection no matter how desperately they try to defend him. Of course a wise defender would use even longer weapons (helbards and spears) and consider things like tripping his opponent (where Armor is irrelevant).[/quote']

 

In the source material, their purpose is commonly not to adequately defend the wizard and survive, but to buy him a little time at the cost of their lives. In other words, get between the Hero and the Wizard long enough for him to take some action (complete a spell, pull the lever, run through the secret passage, whatever). If you can just walk past them, they do not serve that classic purpose.

 

Also one thing regarding moving into a Covered Area is to mind your DCV while doing so:

You put your base DCV against the Full OCV of your target. Maybe even more if he used Interposing.

You cannot add DCV via CSL (as you don't do anything to wich you can apply CSL). He can.

You can't get a DCV bonus for Dodge and Move/Block and Move/Defense Strike and Move into the area as Dodge, Block and attacks are attack actions.

And if you try things like Move By (in the Charge Variant) it even drops your DCV.

 

That means the defender might make a Called Shot, Trip or other maneuver that stops you dead or is able to stop you. Going into a Covered Area is not as funny as it sounds.

 

This assumes the GM does not interpret "cover an area" as being a "cover" combat maneuver itself, precluding its combination with other maneuvers. I don't see that as definitive, but then the whole "cover an area" is an optional rule with a yield sign. I think I'd require the character to select the maneuver in advance. He's already getting the benefits of delaying an action without the DEX roll to react first, plus halving the opponent's DCV if he does try to move past.

 

And why should the Orc enter the area anyway? The Knight has used his action to Cover the area. If he has a chokepoint, that seems quite effective. If the Orc has enough space to walk around, why not do so? You've established the Knight has to hold his action to have any shot at preventing the Orc attacking Princess PITA, so why should the Orc care how many phases he uses to get to the Princess? Maybe the Orc pulls a dagger out of his boot and throws it at the Princess (or the Knight, who has chosen to stand stock still and guard the area, so we have, I assume, departed from Orc and Knight being in direct combat - he can always back off).

 

Ultimately, however, the question isn't really one of "are there other tactics that could be used", but

Should the orc be at some sort of disadvantage from simply ignoring the Knight and walking past? If the answer is 'No'' date=' then the rules are fine. If it is 'Yes', they are not. [/quote']

To me, there should be some difficulty or penalty to just ignoring an armed opponent and walking past him.

[JamesG]

Re: Facing and Passing

 

Great, GREAT post Hugh. You've said everything I could possibly say on this, only better.

[Sean Waters]

Re: Facing and Passing

 

Sean just thinking what if the situation was reversed? What if the knight has to go past the Orc to save the Princess? Are we going to penaltize him? IIrc some wargames (and I'm thinking warhammer 40k) have bad things happen if you try to go past an enemy. So if your looking for a rule' date=' perhaps if you want to disengage from a melee attack, you have to make a sleight of hand or Pre roll to successfully and safely leave the encounter.[/quote']

 

The Knight's difficulty is that it is unlikely that simply getting to princess PITA will actually save her (at least if the aim is to save her from the Orcs!), whereas the Orc getting past the Knight can injury/kill/cover the Princess.

 

My view is that it is difficult enough to simply disengage from combat and more difficult to move around an unwilling opponent, and this ought to be reflected in the rules, be it with a skill roll, a combat penalty or a free attack. I have no particular solution in mind, just really looking at whether it is an issue that needs addressing or not. I'm inclined to think it is, but there is clearly some dissent.

 

Thinking about it now, the easiest way might be to rule that you can 'break away' after a successful block. This has the advantage that it has a built in penalty for trying to get past multiple opponents, and is not automatically successful - there is risk involved. It can be difficult to break away if you are facing a higher SPD opponent (as they will be back on the attack before you can make use of your advantage, unless you time it just right).

[Christopher]

Re: Facing and Passing

 

Sean gave us some stats: 200 point Knight with SPD 4 and OCV/DCV 8 and DEF 9 Plate Mail vs a 100 point SPD 3 Orc with OCV/DCV 5 with DEF 2 leathers. Let's expand that our Knight has a Shield adding 2 to his DCV' date=' and a Longsword, plus a 17 STR, so he does 1 1/2d6 damage to the orc. He's got a fencing suite, so he can bump that to 2d6+1 pretty easily. The orc has a battle axe and an 18 STR, so he does 2d6+1 on a successful hit. Princess PITA is a slight, frail girl based on "standard normal" stats so she has CV 3, BOD 8 and no rDEF.[/quote']

Seriously, the 3 SPD ork is not a much weaker foe. Weak foes have SPD 2 vs the SPD 4 of the heroes. SPD 3 is already elite mook.

 

Situation:

Segment 3:

Knight is guarding a 4m radius area with his sword (8 meter circumfence).

If the knight is really smart he might have a long reach weapon, (medium Spear) to cover 6m Radius.

If he knows what he is doing he is placed so that the Orc needs start more than 6 meters (a half move) a half move away from the princes, so even IF he get's trhough he can't do anything that phase.

The orc starts just outside the area that is guarded (in reality he might start even farther away), 7m away from the Princes.

 

Segement 4:

The Orc moves 1m into the guarded area.

The Knights Held attack is triggered. He moves into reach and strikes.

The Orcs DCV is halved (as per guarding an area) to 3. The orc cannot abort in any way (as he is intercepted in the middle of his action).

The knight isn't an idiot and Shoves the Orc backward. 7 OCV vs 3 DCV means 95% chance to hit. That means 3 meters backwards Shove (the orc can't resist).

The Orc can decide to fall down to reduce the distance he is shoved if he makes the roll, but that would even have a worse result for him.

 

Result:

in 95% of the cases the Orc is now 9m away from the princess.

 

Segment 6:

The Knight has his next phase.

 

 

Now special cases:

The knight could also decide to trip the orc.

The knight might miss, but even then the orc needs a Full Move to even get to the princess. Wich means the knight can attack him from behind the next phase (+3 to the attack roll). So he even get's two chances at takign out the orc. This extra OCV (togehter with the normal +3 advantage) mekes a called shot easier.

Sure the orc could decide to abort to dodge agaisnt later attacks, but then he already lost: The knight has more phases so the orc will stay on the defense.

 

This knight sure knows how to defend a princes from orcs, even if the enemy managed to get all the way into her bedcambers!

And the only thing I miss is the problem.

[Sean Waters]

Re: Facing and Passing

 

First of all he is guarding a 4 metre diameter, a 2m radius - see 6.2.128. Let us assume he does not have a reach weapon, shall we?

 

Second, once the Knight has used the held action that he is guarding the area with, he can not take any other action until his next phase: no shoving after he attacks.

 

Third, and one of the biggest problems, he is dedicating his held action to guarding the area, so if the orc walks past 3m on either side of him, he can not move to intercept it.

 

All this rule does is trade off a dedication of your held action (which is a minus) for a reduction in opponent DCV (a plus, at least from your POV). It does not stop anyone walking past you, or striding away from combat with you.

 

Do you agree?

[Christopher]

Re: Facing and Passing

 

First of all he is guarding a 4 metre diameter' date=' a 2m radius - see 6.2.128. Let us assume he does not have a reach weapon, shall we?[/quote']

Then he does not has a usefull weapon.

Any Relevant Weapon in the list has +1m Reach. So he guards a 4m Radius.

 

Second' date=' once the Knight has used the held action that he is guarding the area with, he can not take any other action until his next phase: no shoving after he attacks.[/quote']

The Shove IS the attack.

There is no restriction to what you can do with your Held Action from "Guardign an Area".

 

Third' date=' and one of the biggest problems, he is dedicating his held action to guarding the area, so if the orc walks past 3m on either side of him, he can not move to intercept it.[/quote']

That requires the room with no obstructions (clibing up and down a table takes more time than just walking).

And about [Pi] times [Raduis of Guarded Area+1] of movement (half a circles circumfence; about 15.7 for a 4m radius Area).

 

All this rule does is trade off a dedication of your held action (which is a minus) for a reduction in opponent DCV (a plus, at least from your POV). It does not stop anyone walking past you, or striding away from combat with you.

 

Do you agree?

Again:

When he has a phase to go away, you left him the room to do so. You stopped forcing him to abort every phase. Whatever reason you had for it*, he now can act freely because you stopped pressing your attack.

If you want to prevent him from attacking the damsel, don't stop pressing the attack. Don't give him the room.

 

 

*You could be running out of endurance. After all Dodge only costs 1, while you attack costs 1+STR/5. Or maybe (if this was a normal fight) you want him to act, so you could hit him when he was not full defense.

[Doc Democracy]

Re: Facing and Passing

 

Not going to get too much more drawn into the detail of this example - not finding it useful but the wrong maths needs addressing. The radius with a +1 reach would be 3m (2m + 1m) not 4m. Thus the circumference to traverse would be (Pi * Diameter)*0.5 = (Pi * 6m)*0.5 = (Pi*3)m or about 9.5m. Still more than a half move...

[Christopher]

Re: Facing and Passing

 

Not going to get too much more drawn into the detail of this example - not finding it useful but the wrong maths needs addressing. The radius with a +1 reach would be 3m (2m + 1m) not 4m. Thus the circumference to traverse would be (Pi * Diameter)*0.5 = (Pi * 6m)*0.5 = (Pi*3)m or about 9.5m. Still more than a half move...

1m Reach (human sized)

+1m for the weapon makes 2m

times two (for cover maneuver) makes 4m Radius

4m+1m (since you have to go outside the covered area, not on it's birder) is 5m

 

A full Curcimfense is 2 times PI times R:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Circle#Length_of_circumference

But he only has to go a half the cirumfence (because there is the princes), so I cut out the times 2.

 

3.14 * 5 = 15.7

[Ninja-Bear]

Re: Facing and Passing

 

Thinking about it now, the easiest way might be to rule that you can 'break away' after a successful block. This has the advantage that it has a built in penalty for trying to get past multiple opponents, and is not automatically successful - there is risk involved. It can be difficult to break away if you are facing a higher SPD opponent (as they will be back on the attack before you can make use of your advantage, unless you time it just right).

 

But that happens in real life. If you are faster than me, I have to be trickier than you! ; )

[Hugh Neilson]

Re: Facing and Passing

 

Seriously' date=' the 3 SPD ork is not a much weaker foe. Weak foes have SPD 2 vs the SPD 4 of the heroes. SPD 3 is already elite mook.[/quote']

 

I think the Orc has been designed solely to be an offensive combat encounter. The Knight has a CV advantage, a substantial armor advantage and a SPD advantage. If the Orc could not menace the Princess, he would be a very limited threat at best. Seems Mook enough to me.

 

Situation:

Segment 3:

Knight is guarding a 4m radius area with his sword (8 meter circumfence).

 

First of all he is guarding a 4 metre diameter' date=' a 2m radius - see 6.2.128. Let us assume he does not have a reach weapon, shall we?[/quote']

 

Then he does not has a usefull weapon.

Any Relevant Weapon in the list has +1m Reach. So he guards a 4m Radius.

 

OK, first we are assuming the GM uses the OPTIONAL “Guard an Area” rule. This seems reasonable as the GM presumably wants to deal with this issue. However, I suggest that the assumption this rule IS in use is itself an admission that rules are needed to prevent the Orc easily just walking past our Knight friend.

 

Second, we are assuming the GM uses the even more optional increase of the guarded area to be double the character’s reach. Perhaps he uses the base rule only (2 meter radius), increases it to “reach + 1 meter” or only to “match the character’s reach”.

 

You assume the GM picks the options most favourable to the Knight, which, in addition to being consistent with your biases, also presupposes the GM is quite concerned with the Orc’s ability to just walk around the Knight. That concern, reflected in his generous interpretation of these optional rules, seems to support the GM’s agreement with Sean that the rules need to deal with this in some manner. So let’s see if, even given your favouring the Knight with the use of these optional rules, they solve the problem…

 

If he knows what he is doing he is placed so that the Orc needs start more than 6 meters (a half move) a half move away from the princes, so even IF he get's trhough he can't do anything that phase.

 

The orc starts just outside the area that is guarded (in reality he might start even farther away), 7m away from the Princes.

 

This presupposes that the knight is aware the Orc will be coming in advance, has the opportunity to set up in advance, and knows that only this one orc, coming from a specific direction, will be a threat to the Princess. In the time the Knight is arranging all this, it is further assumed the Orc can’t see this planning in action, and will dutifully enter from the desired direction, with the Knight directly between the Princess and himself, rather than, say, entering from the opposite direction so he is right by the Princess and the Knight is more than a half move away.

 

It also ignores the possibility the Orc can move just a little bit faster (whether because it has a bit of bonus running or because it’s prepared to Push or use a Move By/Through) to get to the Princess.

 

Segement 4:

The Orc moves 1m into the guarded area.

The Knights Held attack is triggered. He moves into reach and strikes.

The Orcs DCV is halved (as per guarding an area) to 3. The orc cannot abort in any way (as he is intercepted in the middle of his action).

The knight isn't an idiot and Shoves the Orc backward. 7 OCV vs 3 DCV means 95% chance to hit. That means 3 meters backwards Shove (the orc can't resist).

The Orc can decide to fall down to reduce the distance he is shoved if he makes the roll, but that would even have a worse result for him.

 

Result:

in 95% of the cases the Orc is now 9m away from the princess.

 

OK, first off, why does the Orc move into the area the knight is guarding at all? Why not throw a dagger at him instead, from more than a half move away? Why not just back off and wait for a better opportunity to attack the Knight (especially if there are other Orcs in the area he can alert)?

 

Second, if you want the benefit of the sword’s reach to extend the guarded area, I suggest you need to actually USE that weapon in your attack – nothing in the “guard an area” allows you to use your delayed attack to move several meters forward – it allows you to attack the Orc. So now we’re down to a 2 meter reach, or the knight needs to use a swordthrust, rather than a Shove.

 

Third, Shove imposes a -1 OCV and DCV on the Knight. He has a base OCV of 8? The Orc is allowed to resist with its STR, so three meters back is not guaranteed. Orcs are pretty strong themselves.

 

Fourth, I’m not aware of any rule that prohibits the Orc aborting to a defensive action when someone uses a held action to attack him. Would you care to cite same?

 

All this rule does is trade off a dedication of your held action (which is a minus) for a reduction in opponent DCV (a plus' date=' at least from your POV). It does not stop anyone walking past you, or striding away from combat with you.[/quote']

 

Yup. So the Orc tosses a dagger at the Knight, rather than entering the area he’s guarding. Ideally from more than the Knight’s half move away. Or he half moves laterally to make the knight move around next phase, the throws a dagger at the Princess.

 

The knight might miss' date=' but even then the orc needs a Full Move to even get to the princess. Wich means the knight can attack him from behind the next phase (+3 to the attack roll). So he even get's two chances at takign out the orc. This extra OCV (togehter with the normal +3 advantage) mekes a called shot easier.[/quote']

 

First, how is it that the Orc is a full move away from the princess, but the Knight can close with him and attack on his phase? Is he performing a move through or move by, with the attendant penalties? Is he magically closer than the orc? The Orc probably has some spare movement, so he can move past the princess, increasing the distance Sir Knight must travel (and/or can use a Move By or Move Through himself).

 

Second, how does “the orc moved past the knight” equate to “knight is attacking from behind”? If we’re adopting some “can’t look around” rule, why doesn’t the Orc just attack while the Knight looks behind him to instruct the Princess as to exactly how far away she’s supposed to stand? And he loses the halved DCV at that point, so the +3 OCV would give him a similar chance to hit as you allowed from the Guarding an Area advantage.

 

That requires the room with no obstructions (clibing up and down a table takes more time than just walking).

 

The room that’s big enough to allow the Princess to get 8 or so meters away from the Knight is also cluttered with furniture throughout that area? We’re not exactly favouring the Knight with circumstances, are we? Let’s give the Orc a torch and a flask of oil so he can toss flaming oil past the Knight to the place the Princess is standing, to even up those circumstances a bit!

 

When he has a phase to go away' date=' you left him the room to do so. You stopped forcing him to abort every phase. Whatever reason you had for it*, he now can act freely because you stopped pressing your attack.[/quote']

 

He has a phase because the Knight used his to delay and guard an area. Since we’re metagaming heavily anyway, what stops the Orc delaying until Phase 10, walking up to the Knight (with full DCV – he’s not moving through the area) and Blocking when the Knight tries to attack him. If the Block succeeds, he moves before the Knight in Phase 12 and walks right past him to the Princess (with a Move Through if need be – his OCV is better than the Princess’ DCV anyway, and he can use the extra damage to reduce the likeliness Princess PITA stays standing. Assuming he doesn’t kill her outright (oops!), we get to enquire “Well, Sir Knight, do you attack the Orc, or try to stop the Princess from bleeding out?”

 

A full Curcimfense is 2 times PI times R:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Circle#Length_of_circumference

But he only has to go a half the cirumfence (because there is the princes), so I cut out the times 2.

 

3.14 * 5 = 15.7

 

Ignoring any math or rules issues, so Orc moves 6 meters closer around the circumference and delays. Knight’s move on Phase 6. Does he attack the Orc (who now has a delayed phase to Block or Dodge, then his own phase to rush the Princess, before Knight moves again on Phase 9), or just stand there and let the Orc move another 6 meters around his perimeter in Seg 9? The Princess can move on 6, of course, unless the Orc snarling at her (PRE attacks take no time, remember) has her so terrified she’s rooted to the spot.

 

Of course, given the original reason the Orc wanted to Cover the Princess was because the Knight would take him out easily in a straight up fight, I'm uncertain why the Orc doesn't take advantage of Sir Knight not pressing the attack and run away himself. What is the Orc's goal? It could be to kill the Knight (threatening the Princess or summoning allies are his best hopes), to kill the princess (need to get past the Knight - defeating him is irrelevant - maybe use his hesitation to Trip the Knight!) or to escape (in which case, thanks for delaying, Sir Knight!)? If it's to kill the Knight or the Princess, he really should have a bow - which makes just standing there to await the Orc entering your guarded area a dicy choice.

[Hugh Neilson]

Re: Facing and Passing

 

We can play "stack the hypothetical scenario" for weeks. The real question is whether it should be all that easy to disengage from combat, walk past a combatant and attack the soft target behind him, or whether that should carry some risk and/or penalty. All of this argument suggests your position is "no, it's up to the defender to use up his actions in the hopes of stopping the enemy". So, if the enemy is close to similar power, there's probably no way for the hero to protect the innocent - and next week, we'll moan about the PC's not behaving heroically to defend the innocent.

[Christopher]

Re: Facing and Passing

 

To get this sraight:

You say tehre is no rule to protect a princes.

Is say: Yes, there is guarding an area and just not letting the foe get close to her.

You say: Not if I try really, really hard to make it NOT work.

 

Okay, it's an optional rule. One designed to solve this problem. It's written in the description, in the first Sentence for crying out loud.

Any rule in the book (optional or core) that is specifically written to solve a problem is a viable solution for said problem. And preferable for any half baked hosue ruling atempt.

 

You assume the GM picks the options most favourable to the Knight, which, in addition to being consistent with your biases, also presupposes the GM is quite concerned with the Orc’s ability to just walk around the Knight.

How unusual of me, to asume my GM is not a complete jerk and/or idiot. No wait, not.

 

I don't know where you get your GM experience, but believe me:

Mine is better. Try different GM's.

 

Also if the GM is a jerk/idiot, why should he allow your houserule either?

 

This presupposes that the knight is aware the Orc will be coming in advance, has the opportunity to set up in advance, and knows that only this one orc, coming from a specific direction, will be a threat to the Princess.

Yes, I asume a Knight that wants to protect a Princes is doing his best to do so. And he will propably have retreated into an area with only one enterance for attackers (like most fair maidens bedrooms). And not running around 12+ m afar fighting people, when he sould be protecting the princes from being taken hostage.

 

OK, first off, why does the Orc move into the area the knight is guarding at all? Why not throw a dagger at him instead, from more than a half move away? Why not just back off and wait for a better opportunity to attack the Knight (especially if there are other Orcs in the area he can alert)?

One phase the Orc does NOT tries to capture the princess. A Job well done for any bodyguard.

Thanks for pointing out that the defense I proposed is so good that you should not try to go against it.

 

Second, if you want the benefit of the sword’s reach to extend the guarded area, I suggest you need to actually USE that weapon in your attack

The flat side of a sword, is not that different from a stick. You can trip people with a stick. So you can trip people with the flat side of a sword, while still using the reach.

Also a shove can be "crossing blades, pressing the enemy backwards" just as easily (you see that very, very often in source material).

 

Third, Shove imposes a -1 OCV and DCV on the Knight. He has a base OCV of 8?

Your post (that I cited) said so. So I hopefully asumed you did not lie to me there. Was I wrong?

 

Fourth, I’m not aware of any rule that prohibits the Orc aborting to a defensive action when someone uses a held action to attack him. Would you care to cite same?

Aside from the fact that he already in the middle of making an action (half move), was aware that he would not be able to and that it would make "holding till X occurs" almost worthless: nothing.

But just to be certain I asked Steve Long:

http://www.herogames.com/forums/showthread.php/89754-Aborting-against-a-held-action

 

He has a phase because the Knight used his to delay and guard an area

Then the foe won't get past him without an attack. Thanks for pointing out that my suggestion works. But I knew so from the very beginning!

[Doc Democracy]

Re: Facing and Passing

 

1m Reach (human sized)

+1m for the weapon makes 2m

times two (for cover maneuver) makes 4m Radius

4m+1m (since you have to go outside the covered area, not on it's border) is 5m

 

Had to go read it, not rules I am familiar with. Having done so, I think you are being generous.

 

I can see the usual 1m being expanded to 2m as a guarded area - the defender moving 1m back or forth to cover the extra area. However, I do not see that holding a 1m weapon would gain 2m, the defender apparently now able to move better now that he has a sword?? And a 2m spear would increase mobility again?

 

I think I would stick with a 1m addition to the area covered and I would not have the opponent maintain an additional 1m beyond that. I could be convinced to go a bit over the 9.5m but not above the 12m...

 

Doc

[JamesG]

Re: Facing and Passing

 

 

Fourth, I’m not aware of any rule that prohibits the Orc aborting to a defensive action when someone uses a held action to attack him. Would you care to cite same?

 

Aside from the fact that he already in the middle of making an action (half move), was aware that he would not be able to and that it would make "holding till X occurs" almost worthless: nothing.

But just to be certain I asked Steve Long:

http://www.herogames.com/forums/showthread.php/89754-Aborting-against-a-held-action

 

Umm, so based on Steve's answer you were wrong, the Orc can abort. Personally I think I would only have the aborter only lose his remaining half action, and not the remaining half action plus next full action as Steve rules. But the fact remains the orc can abort to a defensive action.