Range Advantages: LOS vs NRM

[melessqr]

Since LOS both cancels the Range Modifiers on an attack, and removes the Maximum Range from a Power, why are they both +1/2 Advantages?

 

Melessqr

[Steve Long]

The Questions board is for rules questions, not game design/philosophy questions, so I've moved this.

[melessqr]

Wow... Shift those skill levels into dodge. I guess that means you're not going to answer the question.

 

Melessqr

[BobGreenwade]

Actually it is a rules question, sort of: "What's the difference between LOS and NRM?"

 

To my mind, the advantage of NRM over LOS is that you can use the former but not the latter when you can't actually see your target.

[melessqr]

How so?

 

You still have to have a Targeting Sense active to attack at range, even with a NRM attack.

 

And, the answer to "What's the difference between NRM and LOS?" is "NRM doesn't remove the Maximum Range from a Power." I may post the question anyway.

 

Melessqr

[Killer Shrike]

With a non LOS power, you just need to see part of the target; while you may effectively take a Concealment penalty you can still hit them.

 

LOS can be blocked. Really, it all depends on how lenient the GM is with making you make PER checks when targets are obscured, which is a GM's option sort of thing.

[Monolith]

Keep in mind that with LOS you must still be able to clearly see the target. As it states in FREd, you cannot just target a spec on the horizon. So unless the character has telescopic senses of some sort LOS really adds no range advantage over NRM because most characters cannot see past 300" (60 ap power x 5) with it being a -14 PER Roll any way.

 

Now that does not mean that LOS is not slightly more powerful that NRM, but not everything in the system needs to be equal. Some things are given a lesser or greater value based solely on the idea that they are SFX-based and not always as useful.

[melessqr]

Hrmmm... You sure you meant what you typed?

 

Page 172:

LOS: A Power with this +1/2 Advantage works on Line O Sight (LOS) basis, like Mental Powers, instead of following the usual rules for Ranged Attacks. This means, among other things, that the Power is not subject to the Range Modifier, but can easily be blocked be intervening objects. See Line of Sight page 78...

 

Page 78:

Mental Powers do not have the standard Range (5"xActive points) - a character can use them to attack any character within his LOS. He can establish LOS with any targeting sense, it means he has direct perception of or can perceive any part of the target with a targeting sense. Don't read LOS literally - a character cannot attack any spec on the horizon with his mental powers just because he can perceive it. He must at least recognize the target as being a mind of some sort which is susceptable to Mental Attack before he can attack it with Mental Powers.

 

That pretty much directly states that you can hit a target that's partially concealed with an LOS attack.

 

I still don't see Any difference between them other than LOS removes the Maximum Range where NRM does not... so, the question remains... Why are they bot -1/2 Advantages?

 

Melessqr

[melessqr]

"So unless the character has telescopic senses of some sort LOS really adds no range advantage over NRM because most characters cannot see past 300" (60 ap power x 5) with it being a -14 PER Roll any way."

 

You Still have to be able to see something to hit it with a NRM. Or did I miss something important in the rules?

 

Melessqr

[Gary]

With NRM, you can lob artillery shells and grenades against specs on the horizon. With LOS, you can't.

 

Also, consider powerful attacks. A 4d6 RKA NRM can easily blow through light cover, but a LOS attack is helpless against someone behind the same light cover.

[Killer Shrike]

Originally posted by melessqr

Hrmmm... You sure you meant what you typed?

 

Page 172:

LOS: A Power with this +1/2 Advantage works on Line O Sight (LOS) basis, like Mental Powers, instead of following the usual rules for Ranged Attacks. This means, among other things, that the Power is not subject to the Range Modifier, but can easily be blocked be intervening objects. See Line of Sight page 78...

 

Page 78:

Mental Powers do not have the standard Range (5"xActive points) - a character can use them to attack any character within his LOS. He can establish LOS with any targeting sense, it means he has direct perception of or can perceive any part of the target with a targeting sense. Don't read LOS literally - a character cannot attack any spec on the horizon with his mental powers just because he can perceive it. He must at least recognize the target as being a mind of some sort which is susceptable to Mental Attack before he can attack it with Mental Powers.

 

That pretty much directly states that you can hit a target that's partially concealed with an LOS attack.

Dont have my book w/ me, but there should be another bit about the GM, at their option, having you make a PER Check w/ a bonus to determine if you have an LOS lock when the target is obscured

[Monolith]

Originally posted by melessqr

You Still have to be able to see something to hit it with a NRM. Or did I miss something important in the rules?

As Gary has already stated above, there is a difference in how the character can attack with the power. A speck on the horizon can be fired upon with the NRM Advantage. With the LOS Advantage it would require the character to take the -14 PER Roll to clearly identify the target.

 

Both LOS and NRM have advantages and limitations and, as I said above, are really SFX based more than anything else. For one SFX you choose one, for another SFX you might choose the other.

[Steve Long]

I guess that means you're not going to answer the question.

 

No, I'm not. I've made it quite clear many times before that, in general, I'm not interested in getting drawn into debates about the design or philosophy of the system.

 

The 5E Questions board is for rules questions, not design discussion. That's what this board is for, and that's why I moved your question here, where anyone who wants to can participate in the discussion.

[BobGreenwade]

Originally posted by melessqr

That pretty much directly states that you can hit a target that's partially concealed with an LOS attack.

That depends somewhat on how you define "partially concealed."

 

I'll make an extreme (albeit a bit unlikely) example to illustrate what I'm saying. Suppose 250" away (a half kilometer) your character spots the outline of an enemy. The enemy is in a tent and completely concealed from direct view, but his lantern casts his shadow on the wall nearest your character. The character can then interpolate his prospective target's location and hit with an NRM attack, but not with a LOS attack.

[Tom]

An additional point, which has been touched upon but not mentioned directly, is a NRM attack can be used while blinded (Flashed or Darkness) while a LOS attack cannot.

 

Granted, the NRM attack will suffer the appropriate penalties, but can still be utilized.

 

A LOS attack cannot be used if you cannot 'see' the target. Period.

[Lord Liaden]

In most combat situations, over the distances that characters normally fight across, there would be little to no practical difference between the two Advantages, which argues for keeping them at the same cost level. However, there are clearly occasions at extreme ranges when LOS would be very advantageous, which is probably why it has a big Yield Sign warning for the GM next to it in the rulebook.