Help me grok HERO!

[gojira]

Re: Help me grok HERO!

 

That's a "use your judgement" and "make sure the power fits into your campaign."

 

Honestly I would ask your player to stay away from powers like Transform until you both understand the system better. Do you have the rest of the character? Have you looked at any other characters for inspiration? Which ones? Maybe you should try to use one of the quick superhero generators?

[Manic Typist]

Re: Help me grok HERO!

 

Well, what does he want to do with that power?

[Hyper-Man]

Re: Help me grok HERO!

 

Well' date=' chargen day 1 (of at least 2, since one of my players wasn't able to make it) was last Saturday. One of my players wants his character, a "biokineticist," to have a Transform power. Since Transform is one of the "Stop!" powers, what do I need to do or know in order to make sure the end result isn't game-breaking?[/quote']

 

The fact that a player asked for the "Transform" power tells me that they are probably looking at the powers list like a list of "final abilities". This is not what they are intended for. Rather, they are a set of tools used to create "final abilities". You might want to look for Champions Powers (6e) or the old Until Super Power Database (5e) which contain pre-built sets of abilities around a common special effect (like Wind, Fire, Electricity, Strength, Superspeed, etc...). HERO character creation works best when you start from a clear vision of what special effect you want to model (Reason from Effect).

 

HM

[Doc Democracy]

Re: Help me grok HERO!

 

Hyperman and Manic Typist are right, that was the first thought that went through my head - what does he mean, he wants Transform. It is one of the key tricks of playing HERO, divorce yourself from the power lists and sit down and think about what you want your character to actually do in special effect terms - I want him to fly and leave a trail of flame, I want him to have a burning aura that only hurts the undead, I want burning globes of fire for eyes that allow me to see through illusions and into the secret thoughts of those I gaze upon. I want a really cool staff that gives me authority in the eyes of anyone that looks at me.

 

When you have that list you can begin asking some mundane questions like, how fast does he fly? Will the fiery trail hurt people or does it just look cool.

 

Only then might you want to begin trawling through the powers to see how you might accomplish the effects you want to achieve. It is back to front from most other games but is crucial to making the game work properly.

 

 

Doc

[Christopher]

Re: Help me grok HERO!

 

One of my players wants his character' date=' a "biokineticist," to have a Transform power.[/quote']

Other said it already, but I also have to say:

It is extreme unlikely that he wants something that requires a built with Transform (the hero-system game power).

 

First question:

What is a "biokineticist"?

Wikipedia knows that "[the Queens college] has a fully functioning gym, complete with a full time Biokineticist.^" So I figure it's some kind of profession. But there is no article about it.

 

On the other hand the RPG Star Drive also has a Profession by that name:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Star*Drive#Professions

With profession apparently meaning something around "class" or "classpath".

 

 

Transform has one use:

Making lasting changes to a character, that are not covered by any other power. So before you take out this "heavy gun", how about telling us what the problem is that you try to solve? We might have a pistol calliber solution for it.

[Manic Typist]

Re: Help me grok HERO!

 

Well, I assume a biokineticist is somewhat similar to a telekineticist.

[Doc Democracy]

Re: Help me grok HERO!

 

In which case you might be looking at shapeshift usable as attack rather than transform.

[Hakkonen]

Re: Help me grok HERO!

 

Other said it already, but I also have to say:

First question:

What is a "biokineticist"?

The term was introduced into the game by Pattie (I'm going to start using names to reduce confusion); it refers to a character with the power to shape flesh, both his own and others'.

 

Transform has one use:

Making lasting changes to a character, that are not covered by any other power. So before you take out this "heavy gun", how about telling us what the problem is that you try to solve? We might have a pistol calliber solution for it.

 

Rodger wants, as described above, his character to be able to change himself and other living targets into different living things. I think we looked at Shape Shift, but for some reason decided it didn't do quite what Rodger wanted. I'm perfectly willing to entertain the idea that we were wrong, though.

 

I have a couple of questions:

1) If Rodger ends up going with Transform, would he have to buy each level separately, or does each level include the abilities of lower levels; i.e., if Rodger buys 10d6 of Major Transform, would he also be able to use that as 10d6 of Minor or Cosmetic Transform?

 

2) Shape Shift seems extremely cheap (undervalued), and I want to be sure I'm reading the Shape Shift Summary Table (6E1 p. 277) correctly. To purchase a "classical" Shape Shift, i.e., one in which the user actually changes into another person, being, or object, the base cost would be 8 (Sight Group) + 5 (Hearing Group) + 5 (Touch Group) + 2 (Smell/Taste Group) = 20 points, correct? That's only for a single alternate shape, of course, but the ability to assume a Limited Group of shapes (say, any living thing) is only +5.

[Christopher]

Re: Help me grok HERO!

 

In which case you might be looking at shapeshift usable as attack rather than transform.

No, in that case he would be looking at Transform.

Afaik the description of Shape Shift even says: "If you consider Shape Shift UAA, use Transform."

[Christopher]

Re: Help me grok HERO!

 

Rodger wants' date=' as described above, his character to be able to change himself and other living targets into different living things. I think we looked at Shape Shift, but for some reason decided it didn't do quite what Rodger wanted. I'm perfectly willing to entertain the idea that we were wrong, though.[/quote']

Is that transformation only Cosmetic, or does it affects abilities? Could you give us specific game effects?

Shape Shift changes only the Appereance. You can look, smell, and feel like Surtur the Fire Deamon. You are still Faky, the Shape Shifter.

 

2) Shape Shift seems extremely cheap (undervalued)' date=' and I want to be sure I'm reading the Shape Shift Summary Table (6E1 p. 277) correctly. To purchase a "classical" Shape Shift, i.e., one in which the user actually changes into another person, being, or object, the base cost would be 8 (Sight Group) + 5 (Hearing Group) + 5 (Touch Group) + 2 (Smell/Taste Group) = 20 points, correct? That's only for a single alternate shape, of course, but the ability to assume a Limited Group of shapes (say, any living thing) is only +5.[/quote']

Shape Shift fools senses. That is it.

There is this minor secondary use for touch group shape shift, but for everything else Shape Shift does one thing: It fools senses.

[Doc Democracy]

Re: Help me grok HERO!

 

Shape Shift fools senses. That is it.

There is this minor secondary use for touch group shape shift, but for everything else Shape Shift does one thing: It fools senses.

 

Just going to steal back your sig here though. If it looks like a duck and sounds like a duck and feels like a duck then what else do you need? I think that saying it simply fools senses diminishes the effects somewhat

 

But yes - it does not provide flight or swimming beyond what you already have.

 

Doc

[Hakkonen]

Re: Help me grok HERO!

 

OK, so Rodger has gotten back to me about the nature of his "flesh shaping" power, and here's what he has to say: "I kinda like the idea of being able to warp them [targets] in the manner similar to how the creature in The Thing did to itself. And maybe force them into a normal version of something else, like changing someone into a sheep or something."

 

So, what are we looking at?

[Christopher]

Re: Help me grok HERO!

 

OK' date=' so Rodger has gotten back to me about the nature of his "flesh shaping" power, and here's what he has to say: "I kinda like the idea of being able to warp them [targets'] in the manner similar to how the creature in The Thing did to itself. And maybe force them into a normal version of something else, like changing someone into a sheep or something."

 

So, what are we looking at?

I guess he means one of the three "The Thing" films:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Thing_from_Another_World

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Thing_%281982_film%29

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Thing_%282011_film%29

 

All I really remmber it "doing" to itself was imitating people. Wich is one of three things:

 

Transformign someone into a Sheep (against his will) would be like transforming someone into Stone. It effectively "disables" the targets body for almost all porpuses. About what timeframes do we talk? What could end the transformation?

 

The real problem seems to be that this is not one ability. But "as many abilities as I can immagine uses". This normally screams VPP. VPP's aren't the best idea for a beginning GM, as they could make one character able to solve the entire adventure on their own.

 

Any chance that you could get him to take a simplar concept (even someone who only morphs himself would be easier) or could he give you a list of very specific/discrete uses he will use?

[gojira]

Re: Help me grok HERO!

 

"I kinda like the idea of being able to warp them [targets] in the manner similar to how the creature in The Thing did to itself. And maybe force them into a normal version of something else' date=' like changing someone into a sheep or something."[/quote']

 

So, basically, if you can just turn anyone you want into a sheep, that's way too powerful in most games. Or, they'll resist your sheep-turning, and kick you into a bloody mess. The bottom line here is I don't feel this is a good character for a starting player or a starting GM. Why not pick a Brick, or something else easy to play, to start with?

 

Going into some more detail, if you have the Champions book, Witchcraft (the magical member of The Champions) has a spell, "Man into Frog" which you can use as a base to turn people into sheep. However, note that she can do a lot of other things besides turn people into frogs, and think about that. She has a lot of back up powers and things she can do besides Transform people, because Transform doesn't always work.

 

For other powers, always reason backwards from effect. What is the *effect* of these biokinetic powers? Then pick powers that do that. But again, tricky powers like this are hard to pull off until you know the system well, and until you can predict better what effects it will actually have. Frankly, your player seems to be power gaming, and is asking for a power that let's him do anything, and that's a good way to have a poor character concept.

 

Get one of the Champions books and use the pre-gens in there. You'll all be much happier.

[Christopher]

Re: Help me grok HERO!

 

So, basically, if you can just turn anyone you want into a sheep, that's way too powerful in most games. Or, they'll resist your sheep-turning, and kick you into a bloody mess. The bottom line here is I don't feel this is a good character for a starting player or a starting GM. Why not pick a Brick, or something else easy to play, to start with?

 

Going into some more detail, if you have the Champions book, Witchcraft (the magical member of The Champions) has a spell, "Man into Frog" which you can use as a base to turn people into sheep. However, note that she can do a lot of other things besides turn people into frogs, and think about that. She has a lot of back up powers and things she can do besides Transform people, because Transform doesn't always work.

 

For other powers, always reason backwards from effect. What is the *effect* of these biokinetic powers? Then pick powers that do that. But again, tricky powers like this are hard to pull off until you know the system well, and until you can predict better what effects it will actually have. Frankly, your player seems to be power gaming, and is asking for a power that let's him do anything, and that's a good way to have a poor character concept.

 

Get one of the Champions books and use the pre-gens in there. You'll all be much happier.

Why I would not declare him a Power Gamer just because of thsi one thing, I have to agree on the other part:

This concept could simply be to complicated a have a too big abuse potential to start with as new GM.

 

A normal Methamorph (somebody who does those things to himself) can already be extremely difficulty and to keep in check. Somebody who can do this stuff to others, is something I would not even try to write up for myself, let alone for a game, let alone allow for a game.

 

Revisit it when you all know the system better, perhaps you manage to get a balanced build then.

[Hakkonen]

Re: Help me grok HERO!

 

Is there any way (i.e., any Limitation or combination of Limitations) to make this balanced? As a GM, I dislike giving my players an absolute "No." Maybe restrict it to touch range, and have it take time rather than being a zero-phase action?

[Christopher]

Re: Help me grok HERO!

 

Is there any way (i.e.' date=' any Limitation or combination of Limitations) to make this balanced? As a GM, I dislike giving my players an absolute "No." Maybe restrict it to touch range, and have it take time rather than being a zero-phase action?[/quote']

Transform is at least a Attack Action, as all attack powers.

But it is also cummulative and ignores all normal defenses, so it will work against anything.

Severe Transforms are entirely GM-approval area. You can transform a Target into Stone, into a Frog, into a Fog, shove it into another dimension and many, many more. Transforming some "just" into a Sheep is already a big step down from it's potential.

But it is still a combat ending power. It works, the target is done for the rest of the combat. No Saving throw. It is simply to powerfull, or you have to limit it so far it becomes next to useless.

 

The second big problem is that he wants more than this. Wich means more powers. A lot of them.

And then will come the ideas he has in game.

 

I Hero is many things, but it is not a game for GM's unable to say No*.

 

 

*in D&D and other class based games you have the Advantage that a lot of times the books already say No for you.

[Hakkonen]

Re: Help me grok HERO!

 

I didn't say I was unable to say "No," I said I prefer not to. In this case, though, it looks like it's unavoidable. You've all raised excellent arguments against allowing this concept, and I'm going to let Rodger know he needs to come up with another idea.

[gojira]

Re: Help me grok HERO!

 

Is there any way (i.e.' date=' any Limitation or combination of Limitations) to make this balanced? As a GM, I dislike giving my players an absolute "No." Maybe restrict it to touch range, and have it take time rather than being a zero-phase action?[/quote']

 

 

I really don't think so. Any limitation is going to make it less powerful and the problem with Transform is it either works or it doesn't. It's either too powerful, or it's no power at all. Either one is going to cause problems.

 

I still say you should get the Champions book, look at the pre-generated character list (it has lots of options, so you can still customize), and start with one of those. I think both the GM and the Player will be happier this way.

 

If you want a place to start, the old 5e rules had two power sets (Check-List Hero and Mystic Master) that could be given a "Bio-Kinetic" special effect, and I think would work well for a starting player and a viable character. I don't have the 6e version, or I'd help you more, but there are ways of getting close to the type of thing you are trying to do, without having to tell a player "no" directly.

[bigbywolfe]

Re: Help me grok HERO!

 

I really don't think so. Any limitation is going to make it less powerful and the problem with Transform is it either works or it doesn't. It's either too powerful' date=' or it's no power at all. Either one is going to cause problems.[/quote']

I'm not sure I aggree with this. As Christopher pointed out above the effects of Transform are cummulative. One hit from the Transform power might not transform the target, but one hit of the Blast power doesn't knockout or kill most targets either.

The fact that this sort of thing is a Severe (is that the right adjective?) Transform means less dice and sure there will be a fair number of villains with enough Power Defense to make such an ability have less utility, but I would hardly call it an "all or nothing" power.

[Doc Democracy]

Re: Help me grok HERO!

 

One of the things that we say is that in hero you can play what you imagine. I think that the message to the player is not that he cannot play this concept but that, in gameplay it might not be as satisfying as he imagines. As Gojira says, a transform like this will be frustrating for the player or the GM often both.

 

If the player wants to warp flesh then there are all kinds of things that can translate into as powers. As for the transform, a few key limitations could make it a non-combat power and cheap enough to permit additional stuff that could work in combat...

 

 

Doc

[gojira]

Re: Help me grok HERO!

 

I'm not sure I aggree with this. As Christopher pointed out above the effects of Transform are cummulative. One hit from the Transform power might not transform the target, but one hit of the Blast power doesn't knockout or kill most targets either.

The fact that this sort of thing is a Severe (is that the right adjective?) Transform means less dice and sure there will be a fair number of villains with enough Power Defense to make such an ability have less utility, but I would hardly call it an "all or nothing" power.

 

 

Well, what you say is true. However, you don't get any benefit from having a partially transformed target. And Major Transform is expensive, and as you say Power Defense is fairly common. So I do think that ultimately the player will see this as a power that "doesn't work" and isn't going to like it.

 

I read through 5e Champions again, and I think Mystic Master is a bit too mystic. However Check-List Hero would work pretty decently, only swapping out a couple of powers for flavor. Change the SFX from "gadgets" to "bio-kinesis" and give it a limitation like "Full phase to switch slots" and I think you'd have a very playable character.

 

Anyone with 6e Champions want to point out where this is in the new edition? I really am sorry I can't help more in that regard.

[Tom Cowan]

Re: Help me grok HERO!

 

http://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/Main/PsychicPowers

Biopsychokinesis, or Bio-PK — the ability to influence living tissue on the cellular or molecular level. Used for psychic healing, regeneration, Psychic Surgery or as a darker power the ability to kill people with your brain, traditionally by stopping their heart, but can also cause a massive stroke, simply shut the brain down, prevent the lungs from working.

[gojira]

Re: Help me grok HERO!

 

See, I did not get "psi" out of "bio-kinesis." I got more of a shape-changer, morphing, Venom-meets-Dr.-Moreau kind of vibe.

 

OP might want to clarify for us.

[Hakkonen]

Re: Help me grok HERO!

 

I don't think Rodger was going for "psi." Maybe it would help if I clarify the campaign a little.

 

This is a relief campaign from my regular Shadowrun game. The game will not be a typical supers game. It will start with a shared empowering event, and thereafter will be about the world dealing with the sudden appearance of superhumans. The PCs will be the only supers on Earth. Will they choose to reveal themselves, or keep the secret? Will they use their powers at will, sparingly, or not at all? No matter what they choose, I'll try to provide a world that reacts to them realistically.