Disintegration Setting on Retro Ray Gun

[Rhino]

I am trying to build the disintegration setting on a retro style ray gun Multipower with a 60 active point cap. The other settings are all AVAD NND (resistant power defined as force field.) I tried building the killing attack with the same AVAD NND, but realized that with the +1 for doing Body it would be anemic within the active point cap. Now I simply have it at 4d6 killing vs. ed with a limitation that it does not work vs. things protected by force fields for -0. I want the classic disintegration feel where it really doesn't matter how much pd the target has. Any suggestions?

[Hyper-Man]

Re: Disintegration Setting on Retro Ray Gun

 

That's really not possible with a 60 active point cap.

The only method that might appear get within budget would be to use Extra Dimensional Movement with Usable As an Attack.

*Essentially what Toyman used to apparently 'kill' Superman in this episode of JLAnimated:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=f261-Jo2MFs

 

Question

Is this for a Champions (super-heroic) setting or for anything else (heroic)?

If the latter, then points don't really matter unless you are using equipment pools paid for via a Perk.

[Lord Liaden]

Re: Disintegration Setting on Retro Ray Gun

 

It's true that HERO System is weighted against the "one-shot kill" -- deliberately so, since the game is geared toward modeling heroes in fiction, who are very rarely killed by a lucky shot.

 

May I assume that just ramping up the Active Points until the attack is almost always lethal to any normal person isn't an option in this case? If not, does your game group use Hit Locations? You might add enough Penalty Skill Levels to offset the penalty to target the head (which does x2 BODY damage), with a Limitation reflecting that every shot taken with the Disintegration setting is equivalent to a "head shot," and missing the head means missing the target entirely. (Head targetting need not be what's occuring in the "reality" of the game setting -- it's just a game mechanic to better model the Special Effect of instant disintegration.)

[Lord Liaden]

Re: Disintegration Setting on Retro Ray Gun

 

That's really not possible with a 60 active point cap.

The only method that might appear get within budget would be to use Extra Dimensional Movement with Usable As an Attack.

 

Since EDM as an Attack requires the definition of a Defense which neutralizes it, this would fit your prescription of it not working against a Force Field. But the rules suggest caution in letting a Power construct like this into the game, as it's extremely efficient for the points invested, and can unbalance a game if not carefully monitored.

[Rhino]

Re: Disintegration Setting on Retro Ray Gun

 

It's a champions game with a super heroic setting. The character doesn't use the disintegration setting on people. He would use it to disintegrate a hole in a wall or disintegrate robots, etc. I was thinking of using change environment (puts holes in stuff) linked to a killing attack of more modest means to reflect its capability to breach walls with ease, but it would be less effective vs robots, etc. that are characters, not environments. Hmm. This might work. I don't want it to be a dimensional teleport type of effect, but an actual disintegration effect.

[Hyper-Man]

Re: Disintegration Setting on Retro Ray Gun

 

If breaching walls is the primary goal then Tunneling would be the mechanic to use.

Make it a slot in a multipower to use more conventional attacks.

 

Caps of any sort tend to put arbitrary limits on certain concepts imo.

As I recall, the laser-sword (lightsaber) writeup from Star Hero 5e came in at 100+ Active Points.

My version was 138 active.

[Rhino]

Re: Disintegration Setting on Retro Ray Gun

 

Ranged tunneling ... I like it. Just another slot in the multipower. Now what would work against vehicle armor plating?

[Tasha]

Re: Disintegration Setting on Retro Ray Gun

 

Ranged tunneling ... I like it. Just another slot in the multipower. Now what would work against vehicle armor plating?

 

Body Drain perhaps. You can get a ton of it in 6e for cheap. Don't remember if BODY is one of those stats that drain is halved against.

 

The System is really biased against one shot kill or one shot anything attacks. It's something that you have to just get used to in the system and be glad that your character doesn't have to come up against those kind of attacks either.

[psyber624]

Re: Disintegration Setting on Retro Ray Gun

 

BODY is halved on Drains. Of course if you are just buying a power for destroying things (not people) you are jumping through a lot of unnecessary hoops here. Most "objects" have very low PD/ED, those with really high PD are designed to NOT be destroyed in the first place so your ray shouldn't really work on them. If you want to destroy large objects you need AOE anyway (otherwise your attack will just punch a 2m hole in the object.) Armor Piercing might also be a viable option.

 

There is one final consideration. If this is for a PC, then having a killing attack that can ignore PD/ED really is way too powerful (and should be limited). With an attack like that almost nothing can stand in your way. If this is for an NPC, well, your the GM, all bets are off, and you can just ignore the caps and build the weapon as you choose (making it a plot device). You control how it will be used so you will be able to make sure that it is balanced and not a one shot kill vs all your players (assuming your a decent GM of course.)

[Rhino]

Re: Disintegration Setting on Retro Ray Gun

 

It's for a character. The primary use of the disintegration would be to make human sized holes in walls and armor plate and such. I think 60 active points of ranged tunneling would work for that. How would I build ranged tunneling?

 

The secondary use would be to attack robots and the like (maybe giant insects or dinosaursetc. as well). I don't really want it to be a one-hit kill on a big baddie. I want to fight those guys with my mace. I usually GM, so I guess I am asking for a certain amount of trust that I won't break genre conventions and use the killing attack unless it is appropriate. I am thinking that 4d6 killing vs. ED with no knockback and a 0 point limitation that it does not work vs. a force field should do it for the secondary use. (Do you think the limitation that it does not work vs. a force field should be a -1/4 limitation?) Do you think I should reduce the dice in killing to get some AP?

[Lord Liaden]

Re: Disintegration Setting on Retro Ray Gun

 

What if any Limitation the ray would receive for not working against a force field depends on how common force fields are in your campaign. If it's very rare to encounter something protected with one, -0 would likely be appropriate. I would probably go with -1/4 if only elite troops or highly secure facilities are equipped with them. If they're standard issue for military, police, etc., I'd make it at least -1/2. If anyone can obtain them as easily as most modern Americans can get guns, I'd set it as high as -1.

[Rhino]

Re: Disintegration Setting on Retro Ray Gun

 

The default setting is the Champions Universe. I am thinking that does not work vs. force fields should be a -1/4, although I could see it being a -0. I am thinking of building the tunneling with usable on others and ranged. Do you think this is the correct way to do it. Normally ranged is verbotten on a self only power. That's why I added the usable on others. Perhaps I don't need that. Should I also add a limitation that it creates the tunnel only and does not provide for the movement?

[Ice9]

Re: Disintegration Setting on Retro Ray Gun

 

I think you only need Ranged. Usable on Others would be if you could make the target move into the tunnel, such as a spell that makes the earth swallow them.

[Sean Waters]

Re: Disintegration Setting on Retro Ray Gun

 

How's this:

 

Disintegrator Ray

 

60 Active Points

48 Real points

 

Killing Attack - Ranged 1d6, Constant (+1/2), Uncontrolled (Ends if the target makes a CON check; +1/2), Reduced Endurance (0 END; +1/2), Attack Versus Alternate Defense (ED; All Or Nothing; +1/2), Does BODY (+1) (60 Active Points); Limited Power Power loses about a fourth of its effectiveness (All Body damage recovers instantly when Uncontrolled ends; -1/4)

 

So, the thing about most disintegration effects is that they are not instant: they take a few seconds (or more) to destroy the target. This one will damage the Body of the target by destabilising the molecular bonds. Living targets can often re-stabilise their systems (with a CON roll) inanimate objects are not likely to be able to do this: their regular molecular structure being more prone to destabilisation and disintegration. If a living thing (well, something with CON) does throw off the effect, all damage caused is completely recovered (It hurt, but I'm feeling fine now!). If the target has any Power Defence, the attack completely fails (most inanimate objects do not have Power Defence).

 

You shoot the target, it glows for a bit, then collapses into a pile of dust, and all in the 60 point cap!

[Sean Waters]

Re: Disintegration Setting on Retro Ray Gun

 

That's really not possible with a 60 active point cap.

The only method that might appear get within budget would be to use Extra Dimensional Movement with Usable As an Attack.

*Essentially what Toyman used to apparently 'kill' Superman in this episode of JLAnimated:

....

 

 

 

Flash: "There are so many reasons that shouldn't have worked!"

 

[Rhino]

Re: Disintegration Setting on Retro Ray Gun

 

This is interesting. However, the disintegration setting is part of a multipower with charges. How does this interact with the Constant? Rather than power defensse as the AVAD defense, I am going with force fields as the AVAD defense for all the settings.

[Sean Waters]

Re: Disintegration Setting on Retro Ray Gun

 

As far as I can recall you should not have a problem: as it is built with 'Uncontrolled' I think you can more or less fire and forget. I stand to be corrected on that though.

[psyber624]

Re: Disintegration Setting on Retro Ray Gun

 

Uncontrolled with Multipower is fine, but it doesn't normally work with charges. Uncontrolled needs a pool of END to feed off of. While you can create a power that has instead a set duration instead of END this is frowned on RAW (there are no guidelines given for how long is appropriate for instance). The CON roll can function as the "reasonable way" to turn it off, but you should also define a set duration if CON rolls fail (or there are none).

 

Of course a GM can allow it, but most probably wouldn't.

 

Also, did you mean the AVAD to use PwD instead of ED Sean? nothing in your writeup suggested PwD.

 

Also note that tunneling only works on walls, ground and such. You cannot use it to get through defenses that are on a target or to damage machinery of any kind. It can only make a hole that has no other effect on the target.

[Rhino]

Re: Disintegration Setting on Retro Ray Gun

 

In the absence of anything more elegant, I decided to go with two separate slots to represent the disintegration setting on the retro ray gun. The first is a vanilla 4d6 killing attack with no knock back that does not work vs. force fields. The second is 2m of tunneling through up to 16 pd material that is usable on others and ranged with a 0 pt limitation that it only creates the tunnel and does not provide for movement.

[McCoy]

Re: Disintegration Setting on Retro Ray Gun

 

In the absence of anything more elegant' date=' I decided to go with two separate slots to represent the disintegration setting on the retro ray gun. The first is a vanilla 4d6 killing attack with no knock back that does not work vs. force fields. The second is 2m of tunneling through up to 16 pd material that is usable on others and ranged with a 0 pt limitation that it only creates the tunnel and does not provide for movement.[/quote']

Sounds good to me.

[Sean Waters]

Re: Disintegration Setting on Retro Ray Gun

 

Uncontrolled with Multipower is fine, but it doesn't normally work with charges. Uncontrolled needs a pool of END to feed off of. While you can create a power that has instead a set duration instead of END this is frowned on RAW (there are no guidelines given for how long is appropriate for instance). The CON roll can function as the "reasonable way" to turn it off, but you should also define a set duration if CON rolls fail (or there are none).

 

Of course a GM can allow it, but most probably wouldn't.

 

Also, did you mean the AVAD to use PwD instead of ED Sean? nothing in your writeup suggested PwD.

 

Also note that tunneling only works on walls, ground and such. You cannot use it to get through defenses that are on a target or to damage machinery of any kind. It can only make a hole that has no other effect on the target.

 

The power is bought down to 0 END, so can run indefinitely anyway. The defence was supposed to be 'Power Defence', but that is just how HD3 churns out the write up. You could substitute 'Force Fields' for Power Defence, I suppose.

 

Mind you, it looks like this one has been solved anyway.

[NuSoardGraphite]

Re: Disintegration Setting on Retro Ray Gun

 

It's probably against the RAW, but what about Dispel Body? If the total rolled on the dice bring the Body of the person/object down below zero, then the object is disintegrated. If it doesn't, nothing happens. I do like the 1D6 RKA, Uncontrolled, 0 End version. That works for the old skool "Zap" and slowly disintegrate version.

[Kirby]

Re: Disintegration Setting on Retro Ray Gun

 

It's probably against the RAW' date=' but what about Dispel Body? If the total rolled on the dice bring the Body of the person/object down below zero, then the object is disintegrated.[/quote']An interesting approach, although for a living creature, the Body would technically have to be doubled for a kill.

 

While I wouldn't allow it in a multi-power, the GM might allow you to Summon something similar as the Nega-Beam (UNTIL Superpowers Database, pp. 261-2.)

[Sean Waters]

Re: Disintegration Setting on Retro Ray Gun

 

It specifically says that Dispel does not work against characteristics (6.1.193) although it then says on the next page:

 

In the case of a Characteristic

or power that’s been negatively Adjusted

(via Drain, for example), a Dispel takes effect if it

exceeds the current (Adjusted) Active Point total

of the Characteristic or power.

 

 

Still, I think not, legally. Also, if you COULD, even doing double Body, and also assuming that the 'Body is defensive and so effect is halved' rule applies (I don't think it does specifically, but then you are not supposed to be dispelling characteristics anyway), you can get 12d6 dispel, enough for 42 points of effect, which would disintegrate something up to 10 Body very reliably for 36 points. For 60 points, you could get 20d6, which averages 70 effect, and even halved and having to cause double damage can reliably disintegrate something up to 17 Body.

 

Seems a bit nasty.

[psyber624]

Re: Disintegration Setting on Retro Ray Gun

 

Well, RAW Dispel cannot affect characteristics. There is also a weird issue there as if the Dispel is not sufficient to disintegrate the target it has no effect whatsoever.