Recovering from being stunned

[Penthau]

From p 105 of 6E2

"Recovering from being Stunned requires a Full Phase, and is the only thing the character can do during that Phase. A character can recover from being Stunned in the Segment in which he was Stunned if he had a Phase in that Segment and his Phase has not yet occurred (in that case his Constant Powers won’t turn off, since he won’t still be Stunned at the end of the Segment)."

 

"A character may be hit by an attack in the Phase in which he’ll recover from being Stunned before getting to do so (i.e.,by another character whose DEX is higher than his). If the character takes no damage from the attack after applying his defenses, he may still recover from being Stunned as normal. However, if the character takes any STUN or BODY damage from the attack, he cannot recover from being Stunned that Phase; he must try to do so on his next Phase instead."

 

The first rules excerpt allows the stunned character to recover in the same segment he took damage and is stunned. The second says that in a segment he takes damage, he can't recover. They seem to contradict each other.

 

Also, the second quote doesn't put a limit on the number of times this can happen. It appears that you could "stun lock" someone by attacking them in the phase they are due to recover and keep them stunned forever by pushing their recovery back a phase each time.

 

Although it has been a while since I played, I don't recall this rule from earlier editions. I can't find my 5e rulebooks but it is not in 4e. A stunned target is already in enough trouble if you are using hit location from all the head and groin shots, but now to add in a way to trivially easily keep them stun locked until they are out, pass.

[Killer Shrike]

They don't contradict each other, the second clause is an exception case to the first clause.

[Hyper-Man]

Basically, a character can begin to Recover from being Stunned in the same Phase they were Stunned if it occurred before they took an action. IF they take additional Stun past defenses once they've started to recover from being stunned THEN the 2nd paragraph above applies.

[Lucius]

In other words, if the damage you took is the damage that stunned you in the first place, you get to recover. That damage doesn't "interrupt" your attempt to recover, because you weren't attempting to recover until you took the damage.

 

So if you take minor damage at the start of a segment, then get stunned, then your phase comes up, that first trivial damage doesn't keep you from recovering either. In my opinion.

 

I also don't see a problem with ignoring the rule about taking damage keeping you from recovering from the stunned condition.

 

Lucius Alexander

 

The palindromedary never heard of the rule and finds it to be stunning news

 

 

[Hyper-Man]

Recovering from being Stunned is a full Phase action.

[TheRealDeal]

To the other part of the OP's question, yes, if you keep taking Stun damage before your DEX each and every Segment you get a Phase in and you are Stunned and want to recover from it, you will keep being denied that recovery. Yes, this sucks for you:) Yes, a smart foe can basically keep jabbing you with held actions that go on your Segments (assuming they have your SPD or better) and doing some Stun and keep you Stunned, until you drop. This is RAW, welcome;)

 

If you do not like this, just house rule it away. I personally allow the target to make a CON or EGO check when this happens (-1 per 2 BODY or 5 STUN taken) to still recover. As a GM I try to be nice and avoid doing this to PCs with Mobs, but I usually do not mind if they attempt this against one of the Mobs. If they are obnoxious about it, they know I can always start doing it back to them, and I control more creatures than they do:)

[Greywind]

And also where post-segment 12 comes in handy, since damage cannot be inflicted then.

[Hyper-Man]

...

I also don't see a problem with ignoring the rule about taking damage keeping you from recovering from the stunned condition.

 

That's one of the primary benefits of Stunning vs. Knocking someone out.

Stunning a character and then continuing to pepper them with smaller attacks that do some damage can keep them Stunned indefinitely. It's a key part of a team taking on a 'Boss' level opponent. A character that is Knocked Out (but NOT Stunned) can act on first Phase following a Recovery (as well as Healing or Aid) that puts them at positive Stun. The bigger drawback of being Knocked out is that their End is also set to Zero until they get a Recovery (which does NOT happen when a character is Stunned).

[Hyper-Man]

The Stunned - Lock strategy is possibly what Squirrel Girl used vs. Doctor Doom.

 

 

 

http://scifi.stackexchange.com/quest...defeat-dr-doom

[psyber624]

The Stunned - Lock strategy is possibly what Squirrel Girl used vs. Doctor Doom.

 

 

 

http://scifi.stackexchange.com/quest...defeat-dr-doom

Thats not STUN damage stunning tho, thats STUNNED that someone would attack him with squirrels (psych damage maybe?)

[GhostDancer]

Pro: It's arguably reasonable. It's easier to keep someone on the ropes than it is to put them there. In traditional Mongol wrestling, if you hit the deck, even just one knee or elbow, you lose. In warfare, people are usually not trying to pin you. Also, as indicated, your foe has to use a better DEX rank than you, and allocate a successful attack during the correct segment. Good odds a foe can knock you out with a follow up blow, anyway. Using this rule increases the chance that an expert combatant may use a less damaging attack on you (perhaps to save END), and if no damage get through your defense, you take your Recovery. Also see Greywind's post segment 12 Recovery comment - good one - Like.

 

Con: It's often not cinematic for this to happen to Named characters; boss, lieutenant, Rocky, Moon Knight, etc. Taskmaster, who has the ability to copy and replicate anyone's fighting style, has stated that he prefers not to copy Moon Knight's style, as Moon Knight would rather take a punch than block it. Even if you are GMing 5 or 6th edition, if one or more your players predate 5th, please tell them whether you're using this rule or not for each of your campaigns, or if it will be used selectively, and how so.

 

Thoughts?

 

 

[Hyper-Man]

The free Post Phase 12 Recovery has no effect on recovering from being Stunned.

A character who is Stunned cannot do anything besides recover from being Stunned (including taking a normal Recovery).

 

from 6e1 page 233

Healing And Being Stunned

The application of STUN via Healing doesn’t counteract the effect of being Stunned — the character must still take a Phase to recover from being Stunned, even if he’s gotten all his STUN back from Healing. However, at the GM’s option, if (a) the STUN lost to the attack is completely restored by Healing, and ( one additional die of Healing STUN (or Simplified Healing) is applied to “eliminate being Stunned,†Healing can remove the need to recover from being Stunned.

 

from 6e2 page 106

Recovering from being Stunned is not the same thing as taking a Recovery. A character regains no STUN when he recovers from being Stunned, he merely shakes off the effects of being Stunned (such as having ½ DCV). A character can recover from being Stunned even if he cannot breathe or holds his breath.

[Hyper-Man]

And also where post-segment 12 comes in handy, since damage cannot be inflicted then.

Post Segment 12 Recovery has no effect on recovering from being Stunned. See my full post below.

[Hyper-Man]

Pro: It's arguably reasonable. It's easier to keep someone on the ropes than it is to put them there. In traditional Mongol wrestling, if you hit the deck, even just one knee or elbow, you lose. In warfare, people are usually not trying to pin you. Also, as indicated, your foe has to use a better DEX rank than you, and allocate a successful attack during the correct segment. Good odds a foe can knock you out with a follow up blow, anyway. Using this rule increases the chance that an expert combatant may use a less damaging attack on you (perhaps to save END), and if no damage get through your defense, you take your Recovery. Also see Greywind's post segment 12 Recovery comment - good one - Like.

 

Con: It's often not cinematic for this to happen to Named characters; boss, lieutenant, Rocky, Moon Knight, etc. Taskmaster, who has the ability to copy and replicate anyone's fighting style, has stated that he prefers not to copy Moon Knight's style, as Moon Knight would rather take a punch than block it. Even if you are GMing 5 or 6th edition, if one or more your players predate 5th, please tell them whether you're using this rule or not for each of your campaigns, or if it will be used selectively, and how so.

 

Thoughts?

 

see response above and below.

[GhostDancer]

The free Post Phase 12 Recovery has no effect on recovering from being Stunned.

A character who is Stunned cannot do anything besides recover from being Stunned (including taking a normal Recovery).

 

from 6e1 page 233

Healing And Being Stunned

The application of STUN via Healing doesn’t counteract the effect of being Stunned — the character must still take a Phase to recover from being Stunned, even if he’s gotten all his STUN back from Healing. However, at the GM’s option, if (a) the STUN lost to the attack is completely restored by Healing, and ( one additional die of Healing STUN (or Simplified Healing) is applied to “eliminate being Stunned,†Healing can remove the need to recover from being Stunned.

 

from 6e2 page 106

Recovering from being Stunned is not the same thing as taking a Recovery. A character regains no STUN when he recovers from being Stunned, he merely shakes off the effects of being Stunned (such as having ½ DCV). A character can recover from being Stunned even if he cannot breathe or holds his breath.

Ouch. OK, yeah, many of us knew the distinction, and it eluded some of us, momentarily or otherwise, myself included, obv.

[Steve]

Given that Change Environment has an option for Stunning someone according to the APG, it seems a useful tactic to hit them with that, then whittle them away with damage that also keeps them stunned. I wonder, could a form of Change Environment be constructed that removes a Stun effect?

[Hyper-Man]

Given that Change Environment has an option for Stunning someone according to the APG, it seems a useful tactic to hit them with that, then whittle them away with damage that also keeps them stunned. I wonder, could a form of Change Environment be constructed that removes a Stun effect?

I think Change Environment only provides penalties of one sort or another. Enough dice of Healing (and possibly even Aid) could optionally do what you suggest per the text I quoted above.

[Lucius]

This should keep 'em out of the fight for a few hours

edit: Forgot the Focus Limitation

 

Paralysing Ray: (Total: 76 Active Cost, 29 Real Cost)

Change Environment (-3 to Con Roll, Stunning) (39 Active Points); OAF (-1), Instant (-1/2), Can Be Deflected (-1/4) (Real Cost: 14)

plus

Killing Attack - Ranged 1 point, +1 Increased STUN Multiplier (+1/4), Attack Versus Alternate Defense (Automaton Powers Takes No Stun or Cannot Be Stunned; All Or Nothing; +1), Damage Over Time, Lock out (cannot be applied multiple times) (8193-16384 damage increments, damage occurs every Segment, +5 1/4) (37 Active Points); OAF (-1), Linked (Change Environment; -1/2) (Real Cost: 15)

 

Now to do a version as a martial arts power...

 

Paralysing Strike: (Total: 78 Active Cost, 31 Real Cost)

Change Environment (-3 to Con Roll, Stunning) (39 Active Points); STR Minimum 8 (STR Min. Cannot Add/Subtract Damage; -3/4), Instant (-1/2), No Range (-1/2) (Real Cost: 14)

plus

Killing Attack - Ranged 1 point, +1 Increased STUN Multiplier (+1/4), Personal Immunity (+1/4), Attack Versus Alternate Defense (Automaton Powers Takes No Stun or Cannot Be Stunned; All Or Nothing; +1), Damage Over Time, Lock out (cannot be applied multiple times) (8193-16384 damage increments, damage occurs every Segment, +5 1/4) (39 Active Points); Linked (Change Environment; -1/2), No Range (-1/2), Inaccurate (1/2 OCV; -1/4) (Real Cost: 17)

 

Note that this one only does the ongoing damage if the attack roll was made at 1/2 OCV, Most hits will probably get the Stunning effect but not the ongoing damage.

 

Both have an END cost 8 but the pistol probably uses an END Reserve.

 

Lucius Alexander

 

The palindromedary thinks there should be a Limitation, Only vs People Named Ray

[Hyper-Man]

A separate attack to do stun damage after target Stunned will not help in the case of the Change Environment based Stunning effect as it has its own recovery rules.

 

This would work though:

 

25 Stun Gun: Change Environment (-6 to Characteristic Roll or Skill Roll, Long-Lasting 1 Turn, Stunning), Area Of Effect Accurate (4m Radius; +1/2) (75 Active Points); OAF (-1), Instant (-1/2), Can Be Deflected (-1/4), Limited Range (-1/4), 2 clips of 12 Charges (-0)

[Notes: From APG1 page 83 - The Stunned effect lasts as long as the Change Environment is maintained (1 Turn*). However, when affected the victim gets to make a CON Roll immediately (at -6*), and if the roll succeeds the attack has no effect on him. If the roll fails, he gets to make an additional CON Roll every Phase he’s affected at a cumulative +1 (so +1 on his second roll, +2 on his third, and so on). As soon as any roll succeeds, the power immediately stops affecting him and he has his full Phase in which to act.] [12]

[Hyper-Man]

And here is a real world equivalent:

 

 

15 Taser Shotgun: Change Environment (-6 to Characteristic Roll or Skill Roll, Long-Lasting 1 Turn, Stunning), Sticky (+1/2) (75 Active Points); OAF (-1), STR Minimum 9-13 (STR Min. Cannot Add/Subtract Damage; -1), Instant (-1/2), 2 clips of 12 Charges (Increased Reloading Time: 1 Turn; -1/2), Required Hands Two-Handed (-1/2), Real Weapon (-1/4), Can Be Deflected (-1/4)

[Notes: From APG1 page 83 - The Stunned effect lasts as long as the Change Environment is maintained (1 Turn*). However, when affected the victim gets to make a CON Roll immediately (at -6*), and if the roll succeeds the attack has no effect on him. If the roll fails, he gets to make an additional CON Roll every Phase he’s affected at a cumulative +1 (so +1 on his second roll, +2 on his third, and so on). As soon as any roll succeeds, the power immediately stops affecting him and he has his full Phase in which to act.] - END=[12]

[Lucius]

I see. This would work too

 

Paralysing Poison (Blade Venom): (Total: 94 Active Cost, 35 Real Cost)

Deadly Blow: +3d6 ([broad circumstances] (Weapon does BOD damage before applying Deadly Blow)) (57 Active Points); 4 clips of 1 Continuing Charge lasting 1 Turn (Increased Reloading Time: 2 Full Phases; Recovers Under Limited Circumstances (Buy or brew more poison); -1 1/2), Variable Limitations (requires -1 worth of Limitations; Either Concentration and Extra Time each time poison applied, or DEX Roll and risk poisoning self; -1/2), Limited Power DO NOT ACTUALLY APPLY EXTRA DAMAGE (Counts for purposes of Stunning, Impairing, and Disabling only; -1/2), Requires A Roll (14- roll; Burnout; -1/4), IIF (-1/4) (Real Cost: 14)

plus

Killing Attack - Ranged 1 point (standard effect: 3 STUN), +1 Increased STUN Multiplier (+1/4), Attack Versus Alternate Defense (Automaton Powers Takes No Stun or Cannot Be Stunned; All Or Nothing; +1), Damage Over Time, Lock out (cannot be applied multiple times) (8193-16384 damage increments, damage occurs every Segment, +5 1/4) (37 Active Points); Linked (Deadly Blow: +3d6; -1/2), IIF (-1/4) (Real Cost: 21)

 

Lucius Alexander

 

The palindromedary argues that Deadly Blow should have a Limitation Not Vs Appropriate Life Support, but Lucius says that's just a covered exception to "broad circumstances"

[Killer Shrike]

Given that Change Environment has an option for Stunning someone according to the APG, it seems a useful tactic to hit them with that, then whittle them away with damage that also keeps them stunned. I wonder, could a form of Change Environment be constructed that removes a Stun effect?

I've been allowing this usage of CE in Here There Be Monsters. For instance, part of a Vampire's bite includes this power to keep their victims pacified. Also, one of the PC's in the current campaign has a AoE version that is decent as chump crowd control.

 

To absolutely resist this sort of effect, I added a custom Talent to HtbM called "Fugue Immunity".

 

 

As far as using CE to remove it the effect, I suppose you could allow it, but Steve L. has pretty consistently resisted allowing CE to officially add any _positive_ benefit.

 

I personally don't agree with this as a) it doesn't model reality as environmental effects can be beneficial and it seems rather arbitrary.

 

It leads to odd things like having to use Images to create light for purposes of added PER bonuses, but you can use CE to generate PER penalties.

 

So, I would say, if Steve L. says "no" to your open ask steve question, then you can still reasonably allow it as a campaign specific thing and it would work fine.

[Killer Shrike]

The free Post Phase 12 Recovery has no effect on recovering from being Stunned.

A character who is Stunned cannot do anything besides recover from being Stunned (including taking a normal Recovery).

 

from 6e1 page 233

Healing And Being Stunned

The application of STUN via Healing doesn’t counteract the effect of being Stunned — the character must still take a Phase to recover from being Stunned, even if he’s gotten all his STUN back from Healing. However, at the GM’s option, if (a) the STUN lost to the attack is completely restored by Healing, and ( one additional die of Healing STUN (or Simplified Healing) is applied to “eliminate being Stunned,†Healing can remove the need to recover from being Stunned.

 

from 6e2 page 106

Recovering from being Stunned is not the same thing as taking a Recovery. A character regains no STUN when he recovers from being Stunned, he merely shakes off the effects of being Stunned (such as having ½ DCV). A character can recover from being Stunned even if he cannot breathe or holds his breath.

Yah. I'm always a little surprised at how many long time HERO gamers overlook that.

 

I think it's a defacto common practice for many to treat a "Recovery from being Stunned" as a general Recovery and gain back REC End and Stun.

 

To avoid confusion between the two is why I long ago settled on referring to being CON Stunned as being "Staggered", and thus it makes communication around RECovering Stun vs recovering from being Staggered a little less confusing.

 

 

As a related tangent, another of the custom Talents I added for Here There Be Monsters is Heroic Recovery, which helps a character mitigate being Staggered.

[TheRealDeal]

Not sure if I should start a new thread, but since this seems to fit, I will ask it here. How would one build a power that allows you or another ally you target to recover from being Stunned? Something like +1 SPD, only to recovery from Stunned, UOO? Is that too simple? Any better way?

[Hyper-Man]

Not sure if I should start a new thread' date=' but since this seems to fit, I will ask it here. How would one build a power that allows you or another ally you target to recover from being Stunned? Something like +1 SPD, only to recovery from Stunned, UOO? Is that too simple? Any better way?[/quote']

 

See the optional use of Healing in post #11 above.