Opinions: Passing Strike vs. Held Action

[Balabanto]

Actually, no. Attempt to interrupt doesn't matter here. This falls under "Guarding areas and ignoring opponents." (Champions Complete P 156) The problem is that once he enters the area, if he's holding, he can declare his intention to guard a 2m area around himself and punch the guy in the face. Even if the Speedster were to win the Dex contest, he still has to cross the intervening 2m, at which point the HTH attack goes off. The reason why it needs to work this way is this. Even if Held Actions require a Dex Roll, he still has to cross that distance.

 

You cannot attack in hand to hand combat and pretend the intervening space doesn't exist unless you paid points for the advantage "Doesn't cross intervening space." Even assuming that this guy wins the DEX roll, he doesn't get to leave the area for free. Now, granted, it would be really cool for a Speedster to buy an Hth Attack that doesn't cross intervening space and tag the guy, but he would still have to pay for it. Then the villain guards the area and fails.

 

If the Speedster had some sort of ranged attack, it would go off immediately. But in order to enter Hand to Hand combat, he MUST close with his opponent. If he does this, technically, the villain can even shoot him outright as soon as those 2 meters are violated.

[bigbywolfe]

That is an Optional Combat Rule and there was no indication it was being used.

 

Now there might be an argument if he was holding specifically to hit the speedster when he came by. If he was just generically holding his action (which in and of itself is a GM permission thing) and he loses the DEX roll to see who goes first than one action is resolved, then the other. The resolution of the speedster's action is that he is out of range.

[Balabanto]

It is the only rule that accurately describes the situation.

[bigbywolfe]

The regular Held Actions rules describe the situation just fine. Furthermore the PC with the held action did not declare he wa guarding the space (if they were even using that option) but that he was attacking the speedster so your point is moot.

[Hyper-Man]

 

I think you are assuming that because it has the word "Defense" in its name that Defensive Throw can be aborted to. It's not built with the Abort element so it's technically not a defensive action and can't be aborted to.

 

I just pulled my copy of 5e off the shelf to look at that page (I don't have a PDF of that book, only 5er) and I see no mention of Defensive Throw on the quoted page.

 

3 Defensive Throw: 1/2 Phase, +1 OCV, +1 DCV, Block, Target Falls

4 Martial Block: 1/2 Phase, +2 OCV, +2 DCV, Block, Abort

 

The Martial Block has the Abort element, the Defensive Throw does not. Even if the character holding an action decides to use the Defensive Throw maneuver when the fast guy runs at him to attack it goes to a DEX off. And the winner of the DEX off goes first. If the guy holding loses that contest it means the Block aspect of the Defensive Throw fails and the Throw fails because of movement aspect of the Passing Strike.

 

Just found this.

from APG I page 167

 

BLOCKS COMBINED WITH OTHER ELEMENTS

Some Martial Maneuvers, such as Defensive Throw and Grappling Block, combine Block with other Martial Maneuver elements such as Grab or Throw. Since these maneuvers have an offensive or aggressive aspect to them, a character cannot Abort to them (even if he wants to use just the Block part of the maneuver).

[Hyper-Man]

Actually, no. Attempt to interrupt doesn't matter here. This falls under "Guarding areas and ignoring opponents." (Champions Complete P 156) The problem is that once he enters the area, if he's holding, he can declare his intention to guard a 2m area around himself and punch the guy in the face. Even if the Speedster were to win the Dex contest, he still has to cross the intervening 2m, at which point the HTH attack goes off. The reason why it needs to work this way is this. Even if Held Actions require a Dex Roll, he still has to cross that distance.

 

You cannot attack in hand to hand combat and pretend the intervening space doesn't exist unless you paid points for the advantage "Doesn't cross intervening space." Even assuming that this guy wins the DEX roll, he doesn't get to leave the area for free. Now, granted, it would be really cool for a Speedster to buy an Hth Attack that doesn't cross intervening space and tag the guy, but he would still have to pay for it. Then the villain guards the area and fails.

 

If the Speedster had some sort of ranged attack, it would go off immediately. But in order to enter Hand to Hand combat, he MUST close with his opponent. If he does this, technically, the villain can even shoot him outright as soon as those 2 meters are violated.

 

Here is the FULL relevant text:

 

from 6e2 page 127

 

OPTIONAL COMBAT RULES

This section includes some optional rules for combat in unusual situations. The GM decides whether they apply in his campaign.

 

from 6e2 page 128

 

Guarding Areas And Ignoring Opponents

In the HERO System, a character can run right past and ignore an opponent standing in his way, even if that opponent has Held an Action — the character suffers no penalty at all. If that’s inappropriate for your campaign, or you want to make it easier for a character to guard a location or object, use the following optional rule instead:

 

A character may Hold his Action and declare that he’s “guarding†or “covering†a 2m radius area around himself. (That’s an area twice a typical character’s Reach. If a character has a longer Reach due to a weapon, Stretching, or the like, the GM can choose to increase the size of the “guarded†area to match the character’s Reach.) If anyone moves into or through that area, the character may use his Held Action to attack that character, who only has ½ DCV against the attack. (Of course, making that attack uses up the character’s Held Action, so someone else could then move through the guarded area without risk.) However, the target character retains his full DCV if he moves into the area specifically to attack the character who’s guarding it and does so. After making some sort of attack against the guarding character, on his next Phase the target character can continue moving through the guarded area without penalty.

 

This optional rule is NEW to 6e. It does not appear in 5er or Ultimate Speedster. It's also not specifically addressed in Hero System Martial Arts or either APG. It makes no statement about interactions with Full Move attacks like Move Through, Move By and Passing Strike.

 

With that said, I think the optional rule is primarily intended for Heroic games with relatively equal speed & movement capable opponents. Otherwise it is a case of a FREE maneuver trouncing upon the "schtick" of a speedster who paid for every aspect of the situation being discussed (a high DEX, high Movement ability & a 5 Point Martial Maneuver with the Full Move Element). I do NOT believe it would be appropriate to be invoked by the GM in this circumstance.

 

One other aspect to consider. If the defending character is not familiar with the reputation and/or superspeed movement abilities of the speedster in the original example, it is entirely appropriate to declare the Passing Strike attack to be a "Surprise" move that trumps the target's "Guarding".

[Hyper-Man]

One last thing.

IF the speedster's Passing Strike does ANY Knockback, THEN the defender will not get to attempt a HTH attack vs the speedster (the speedster will definitely traveled the rest of his FULL Move in that case).

[TheRealDeal]

I use a house rule that says each point by which you win a DEX roll off allows you to move 1 hex before the other guy can attack. However, by RAI, it would seem the spirit of the rules would say that the villain gets his attack off before the speedster can move away. If you wanted to build your speedster attack so that you can make such attacks and not get attacked by such held actions, you should build it as a Ranged Attack with Teleport to represent you hit them so fast and move so fast they have no chance to counter attack with HTH. If you did not build it as such, then you should probably not get the advantage of that against a held action.

[bigbywolfe]

I use a house rule that says each point by which you win a DEX roll off allows you to move 1 hex before the other guy can attack. However, by RAI, it would seem the spirit of the rules would say that the villain gets his attack off before the speedster can move away. If you wanted to build your speedster attack so that you can make such attacks and not get attacked by such held actions, you should build it as a Ranged Attack with Teleport to represent you hit them so fast and move so fast they have no chance to counter attack with HTH. If you did not build it as such, then you should probably not get the advantage of that against a held action.

What about the RAW makes you think the "spirit of the rules" is that? What part of the rules are you interpreting as "even though you won the DEX roll and get to go first he still gets to hit you before you finish your action"?

[Christopher]

There is two seperate questions here:

1. Does the Villain has a right to attack the Speedster? He held an action and was allowed by the GM to use that action in the situation to attack, so yes he does get to attack the speedster. Yes even if the condtion was only fullfileld during the Speedsters action. Taking an half-phase action during another players action is the point of holding an action*. If he wasn't allowed to make the attack, there would not have been anything to roll a DEX contest about.

The rules are clear and unambigious about that.

 

2. Does he get to act a split second before the speedsters HTH-Attack or a split second after the speedster HTH-Attack? That is what the DEX roll decides. That and nothing else.

 

Wheter the rest of the speedsters action moves the speedster 20m away or all the way from America to China is irrelevant. Right now and that specific moment of time both have the right to attack because both are in HTH-Range of each other and both have taken proper actions to allow them that.

 

 

*Yes, intercepting an enemy when starting or during it's movement is explicitly allowed. Yes, intercepting an enemy mid attack is explcilty allowed. Just because he took an action that is move and attack does not make him immune to held actions.

[TheRealDeal]

After bigbywolfe commented, I looked it up as I had not bothered to search for anything specific to this in the rules, just going by memory of the general HERO concept that you should not get something you do not pay points for and I figured that was what applied here. But here is something I found that may indicate the villain does not get to attack. This has nothing to do with should it be this way or is this the best way, this is just what I found in the rules.

 

From HERO 6E, Volume 2, Page 19, the very last paragraph under CONSEQUENCES OF LOSING THE DEX ROLL

 

quote: (I bolded the parts relevant here)

"If two characters use DEX Rolls to determine who acts first, the loser of the roll cannot then choose to Abort to a defensive Action — committing to the roll means the chance to Abort is lost. The character has staked his chances on getting to act first, and having failed to do so, has to live with the consequences. In some cases, the GM may even want the characters to specify what Actions they’re attempting, and what powers or attacks they’re using, before letting them make their DEX Rolls. The losing character has already stated, in effect, (a) that he’s attacking, ( what attack he’s using, and © where he’s aiming. He can’t change just because the winner got lucky, saw it coming, and moved away. However, the losing character can, if hit, declare that he’s Rolling With The Punch (if appropriate).

Similarly, if a character loses a DEX Roll Contest to determine who acts first, and the target of his attack moves away from the target point, the character cannot “re-target†his attack to “track†the target and still hit him."

 

Seems this may answer the question from a RAW perspective.

[Hyper-Man]

Holding an Action does NOT garantee a retaliation HTH attack. Only Winning or Tying the DEX roll off can do that.

 

from: http://cwx.prenhall.com/bookbind/pubbooks/morris4/chapter2/medialib/class/dollar.html

 

The Dollar Bill Drop After engaging in the neural network exercise, we recommend following it up with the "dollar bill drop" (Fisher, 1979), which not only delights students but also clearly illustrates the speed of neural transmission. Ask students to get into pairs and to come up with one crisp, flat, one-dollar bill (or something bigger, if they trust their fellow classmates!) between them. First, each member of the pair should take turns trying to catch the dollar bill with their nondominant (for most people, the left) hand as they drop it from their dominant (typically right) hand. To do this, they should hold the bill vertically so that the top, center of the bill is held by the thumb and middle finger of their dominant hand. Next, they should place the thumb and middle finger of their nondominant hand around the dead center of the bill, as close as they can get without touching it. When students drop the note from one hand, they should be able to easily catch it with the other before it falls to the ground.

Now that students are thoroughly unimpressed, ask them to replicate the drop, only this time one person should try to catch the bill (i.e., with the thumb and middle finger of the nondominant hand) while the other person drops it (i.e., from the top center of the bill). Student "droppers" are instructed to release the bill without warning, and "catchers" are warned not to grab before the bill is dropped. (Students should take turns playing dropper and catcher.) There will be stunned looks all around as dollar bills whiz to the ground. Ask students to explain why it is so much harder to catch it from someone other than themselves. Most will instantly understand that when catching from ourselves, the brain can simultaneously signal us to release and catch the bill, but when trying to catch it from someone else, the signal to catch the bill can't be sent until the eyes (which see the drop) signal the brain to do so, which is unfortunately a little too late.

Fisher, J. (1979). Body Magic. Briarcliff Manor, NY: Stein and Day.