Opinions: Passing Strike vs. Held Action

[Gary Miles]

So, we've been playing Hero System for about thirty years, but something came up during tonight's game that we hadn't really thought of during those years.

 

A speedster versus a villain with a Held Action:

 

Speedster (Blue Streak) is DEX 30, SPD 8, 37" Running. Blue Streak zips past the villain, who is about the half-way point of Blue Streak's Full Move.. We do a DEX roll-off, because of the villain's Held Action. Blue Streak makes his roll by a lot more than the villain. He attacks with his Passing Strike martial maneuver,scores a hit and rolls damage. He continues on (it is a Passing Strike, after all), coming to a stop 15" from the villain.

 

Since the villain had a held action, would you say he still gets to roll a H-t-H Attack versus Blue Streak as Blue Streak passes by? Or should he not get a chance because Blue Streak did his attack while moving, and is now clear-the-heck away from the villain?

 

My friend playing the villain is a power-gamer extraordinaire, and he says the villain should get to roll a H-t-H Attack. I say that since Blue Streak uses the Passing Strike, which ends up out of H-t-H range, the villain gets no roll.

 

What say you, Herophiles?

[Greywind]

I'd say that the villain can interrupt the passing strike and preemptively thwack Blue Streak before the passing strike is rolled.

[Hyper-Man]

What's the point of doing the contested DEX rolls if not to reward the winner?

 

HTH specialists should be screwed vs. speedsters if they are outclassed in DEX. A dedicated martial artist might be able win the DEX off. Same for a character with 2 or 3 Overall Levels (the great equalizer in such situations). Have your GM watch the fight between Flash and Luthor/Brainiac in Justice League Unlimited. On the first couple of Move By/Passing Strikes I don't think Flash actually delivers a Stunning blow but Luthor/Flash still can't do anything about Flash repeating the tactic. He's just not fast enough to.

[psyber624]

I would have to vote on the side of "villain doesn't get to attack". Failing the Dex roll off means that the other players ACTION goes first and is therefore completed (including his move) before the villain can act.

 

Consider this example: Villain is in melee range of Hero, holds his action to see what the Hero does. Hero decides to move out of melee range on his action. Villain tries to go before Hero can move but LOSES the Dex Roll, should he still get to hit the Hero? I think most would agree that he does not. If you state that in your case he should get a chance to attack then what happens in this situation?

 

Now, if he wins the DEX Roll then yes, he can get off an attack, even a melee attack (assuming the speedster passes into melee range for his passing strike), but that does not necessarily negate the Speedster's attack. Unless the Speedster was KB'd out of melee, Stunned, KO'ed, Killed, etc. he will still get to attack after the Villain's attack has gone off. This does make passing strikes, move by's, etc more powerful, but they also have some serious risks (Uncontrolled Movement Anyone?).

[Killer Shrike]

So, we've been playing Hero System for about thirty years, but something came up during tonight's game that we hadn't really thought of during those years.

 

A speedster versus a villain with a Held Action:

 

Speedster (Blue Streak) is DEX 30, SPD 8, 37" Running. Blue Streak zips past the villain, who is about the half-way point of Blue Streak's Full Move.. We do a DEX roll-off, because of the villain's Held Action. Blue Streak makes his roll by a lot more than the villain. He attacks with his Passing Strike martial maneuver,scores a hit and rolls damage. He continues on (it is a Passing Strike, after all), coming to a stop 15" from the villain.

 

Since the villain had a held action, would you say he still gets to roll a H-t-H Attack versus Blue Streak as Blue Streak passes by? Or should he not get a chance because Blue Streak did his attack while moving, and is now clear-the-heck away from the villain?

This sort of situation has come up in past games often enough. This is a fairly typical speedster scenario.

 

My friend playing the villain is a power-gamer extraordinaire, and he says the villain should get to roll a H-t-H Attack.

Did your power-gamer friend provide a reason why he thinks this?

 

I say that since Blue Streak uses the Passing Strike, which ends up out of H-t-H range, the villain gets no roll.

Given your explanation of the sequence of events, I agree with you.

[Gary Miles]

This sort of situation has come up in past games often enough. This is a fairly typical speedster scenario.

 

 

Did your power-gamer friend provide a reason why he thinks this?

Because he had a Held Phase. I told him that's what the DEX roll-off was for.

 

[IndianaJoe3]

I'd let the villain attack unless he'd been Knocked Back or Down. Yes, Blue Streak got to attack first, but he was in HtH range. His ending his Phase outside of HtH range is an artifact of the system.

[Beast]

Passing strike lands

If the character is not dazed or knocked back out of range they should get their held action

Why have a dex off then

[Lucius]

Passing strike lands

If the character is not dazed or knocked back out of range they should get their held action

Why have a dex off then

To see which attack happens FIRST. If one character is Stunned, knocked back, etc, that aborts their attack, so it matters who goes first.

 

Lucius Alexander

 

The palindromedary can see both sides of the argument

[Hyper-Man]

The way I see it, this question is similar to the many previous ones about Flying Dodge*. If one character attempts to make a HTH attack versus another and the defender uses Flying Dodge, the attack misses because the movement occurs before the attack (automatically putting them out of range).

 

From the Rules FAQ:

http://www.herogames.com/rulesFAQ.ht...ge&dateString=

 

If a character uses Flying Dodge to try to avoid a ranged non-area-affecting attack, he still gets to move and still gets a DCV bonus from the maneuver, but he’s not automatically missed — the attacker still gets a roll to hit (unlike with Dive For Cover, where the attack would automatically miss). If it’s a HTH attack, the Attack Roll is irrelevant, since the character won’t be in HTH combat range any longer.

 

*It's also worth noting that Flying Dodge is NOT based upon a real world martial arts, unlike Passing Strike (Kenjutsu).

[GhostDancer]

Now if the villain was using a Defensive Throw ....he could try it with no DEX roll needed, per 5th edition Hero System p. 235.

[Hyper-Man]

Now if the villain was using a Defensive Throw ....he could try it with no DEX roll needed' date=' per 5th edition Hero System p. 235.[/quote']

 

I think you are assuming that because it has the word "Defense" in its name that Defensive Throw can be aborted to. It's not built with the Abort element so it's technically not a defensive action and can't be aborted to.

 

I just pulled my copy of 5e off the shelf to look at that page (I don't have a PDF of that book, only 5er) and I see no mention of Defensive Throw on the quoted page.

 

3 Defensive Throw: 1/2 Phase, +1 OCV, +1 DCV, Block, Target Falls

4 Martial Block: 1/2 Phase, +2 OCV, +2 DCV, Block, Abort

 

The Martial Block has the Abort element, the Defensive Throw does not. Even if the character holding an action decides to use the Defensive Throw maneuver when the fast guy runs at him to attack it goes to a DEX off. And the winner of the DEX off goes first. If the guy holding loses that contest it means the Block aspect of the Defensive Throw fails and the Throw fails because of movement aspect of the Passing Strike.

[Hyper-Man]

I'll repeat another argument I have made in defense of Flying Dodge here since it seems appropriate. Both Flying Dodge and Passing Strike are 5 point Martial Maneuvers. That 5 points is similar in many ways to 5 points spent on a Fixed(6e)/Ultra Slot (up to a 50 Active Point Ability) in a Multipower.

[Hyper-Man]

A high end speedster like the Silver Age Flash can practically be considered to be Desolidified nearly all the time and have the Affects Physical World Advantage on his STR. That's how hard it is to affect him in HTH combat.

[bigbywolfe]

The DEX roll does not determine which "attack" goes first, it determines which ACTION gets first and the on doing a Passing Strike (or even a standard Move-By) ends his action out of range of a HtH attack. Not sur why this is an issue.

[bigbywolfe]

I'd let the villain attack unless he'd been Knocked Back or Down. Yes, Blue Streak got to attack first, but he was in HtH range. His ending his Phase outside of HtH range is an artifact of the system.

Can you explain what you mean by "artifact of the system" and more importantly why we should consider that a bad thing with no explanation?

 

STR has determined how much weight you can lift since first edition so it is obviously an artifact of the system an thus bad, right?

[Killer Shrike]

Now if the villain was using a Defensive Throw ....he could try it with no DEX roll needed' date=' per 5th edition Hero System p. 235.[/quote']

 

I think you are assuming that because it has the word "Defense" in its name that Defensive Throw can be aborted to. It's not built with the Abort element so it's technically not a defensive action and can't be aborted to.

 

I just pulled my copy of 5e off the shelf to look at that page (I don't have a PDF of that book, only 5er) and I see no mention of Defensive Throw on the quoted page.

 

3 Defensive Throw: 1/2 Phase, +1 OCV, +1 DCV, Block, Target Falls

4 Martial Block: 1/2 Phase, +2 OCV, +2 DCV, Block, Abort

 

The Martial Block has the Abort element, the Defensive Throw does not. Even if the character holding an action decides to use the Defensive Throw maneuver when the fast guy runs at him to attack it goes to a DEX off. And the winner of the DEX off goes first. If the guy holding loses that contest it means the Block aspect of the Defensive Throw fails and the Throw fails because of movement aspect of the Passing Strike.

Actually...I did an Ask Steve on this many years ago. Unfortunately with the current state of the forums I can't seem to dig it up and it was too far back to manually look for.

 

However, according to the UMA martial maneuver building rules (in 6e, UMA page 91 "Helpful Elements"):

 

Block +0 points if maneuver is based on Block instead of Strike (Abort is Free) Take Once

 

 

So...if a Maneuver has the Block element, it can be Aborted to as the Abort feature is a freebie on the Block element.

 

The ruling on Defensive Maneuver specifically was that you could Abort to Block with it but could not use the Target Falls element in conjunction with the Abort as that would constitute an attack*. If I recall correctly Steve said the Abort isn't noted in the maneuver summary line so as not to confuse people who on a casual reading might think the maneuver effectively allowed an Abort to Target Falls.

 

 

 

 

*Personally, I waive that and allow the Target Falls element to be used in conjunction with an Abort, but require the blocker to make a OCV vs DCV check. It makes for a more cinematic ability.

[Killer Shrike]

Because he had a Held Phase. I told him that's what the DEX roll-off was for.

 

Yeah. Given your explanation, I would have made the same call.

[Hyper-Man]

Now if the villain was using a Defensive Throw ....he could try it with no DEX roll needed' date=' per 5th edition Hero System p. 235.[/quote']

 

I think you are assuming that because it has the word "Defense" in its name that Defensive Throw can be aborted to. It's not built with the Abort element so it's technically not a defensive action and can't be aborted to.

 

I just pulled my copy of 5e off the shelf to look at that page (I don't have a PDF of that book, only 5er) and I see no mention of Defensive Throw on the quoted page.

 

3 Defensive Throw: 1/2 Phase, +1 OCV, +1 DCV, Block, Target Falls

4 Martial Block: 1/2 Phase, +2 OCV, +2 DCV, Block, Abort

 

The Martial Block has the Abort element, the Defensive Throw does not. Even if the character holding an action decides to use the Defensive Throw maneuver when the fast guy runs at him to attack it goes to a DEX off. And the winner of the DEX off goes first. If the guy holding loses that contest it means the Block aspect of the Defensive Throw fails and the Throw fails because of movement aspect of the Passing Strike.

Thanks KS!

 

That makes a little more sense now, including your house rule.

[Killer Shrike]

Now if the villain was using a Defensive Throw ....he could try it with no DEX roll needed' date=' per 5th edition Hero System p. 235.[/quote']

 

I think you are assuming that because it has the word "Defense" in its name that Defensive Throw can be aborted to. It's not built with the Abort element so it's technically not a defensive action and can't be aborted to.

 

I just pulled my copy of 5e off the shelf to look at that page (I don't have a PDF of that book, only 5er) and I see no mention of Defensive Throw on the quoted page.

 

3 Defensive Throw: 1/2 Phase, +1 OCV, +1 DCV, Block, Target Falls

4 Martial Block: 1/2 Phase, +2 OCV, +2 DCV, Block, Abort

 

The Martial Block has the Abort element, the Defensive Throw does not. Even if the character holding an action decides to use the Defensive Throw maneuver when the fast guy runs at him to attack it goes to a DEX off. And the winner of the DEX off goes first. If the guy holding loses that contest it means the Block aspect of the Defensive Throw fails and the Throw fails because of movement aspect of the Passing Strike.

Sure. It definitely makes the maneuver more attractive as its a 3 point block that can also be used as an improved trip, and in a more general sense that free abort feature of the Block element (and also the Dodge element) allows for some neat custom maneuvers.

[Christopher]

Speedster (Blue Streak) is DEX 30' date=' SPD 8, 37" Running. Blue Streak zips past the villain, who is about the half-way point of Blue Streak's Full Move.. We do a DEX roll-off, because of the villain's Held Action. Blue Streak makes his roll by a lot more than the villain. He attacks with his Passing Strike martial maneuver,scores a hit and rolls damage. [b']He continues on (it is a Passing Strike, after all), coming to a stop 15" from the villain.[/b]

And there is your mental hickup. The real sequence is:

The Speedster starts his action and starts moving.

Speedster get's into HTH-Range: Both Character now have legitimate reason to act (The Speedster because of his action, the Villain because of his held action). The only question is wich one acts first because one attack might negate the other (stunn, KO) or make it harder (trip penalty) - might, but doesn't have too. That is all the DEX Roll cares about. Everything happens now, mid action of the Speedster.

Afterwards the Speedster Continues his movement (hopefully he still has control, see below) and end his Action.

 

You used the example Passing Strike vs Defensive Throw. It is important to note that "Defensive" in this context only means "This martial maneuver has a higher DCV Bonus but not such a big STR/DC/OCV Bonus compared to similar Maneuvers" Just compare Martial Strike, Defensive Strike and Offensive Strike to get the idea.

Also note that "Trip" and "Prone" are a bit abstract: You can be "Tripped" while Flying and don't automatically fall to the ground - but you still have Prone Penalties until you use a half phase to "adjust yourself".

 

The Rules leave for me exaclty one clear way this Situation would resolve:

If the Villain won the dex roll, his attack would go first and could make the Speedsters attack harder (Prone penalties, see Groudnfighting, -2 OCV) if he hits and suceeds.

If the Speedester won, his attack would go first and could invalidate the Held Action (Stunned, KO, KB if not down the movement Path) if he hits and does enough damage.

If they tie, reroll until one wins the DEX Contest.

 

Regardless of who went first:

If the Speedster attack succeded, the Villain took damage.

If the Villains attack succeded, the speedster would be prone - mid movement not a nice thing. He propably (depends on the specific build) could not continue to use his movement power. He also can't switch to a different movement power (because he can't take a Zero-Phase action during his other actions and already comitted to a Full Phase/Attack action), even if he should have a power for this. If a Characters Movement Powers stops being able to cover his Current Speed, he enter "uncontrolled Movement". He takes Veloctity based damage as described under Trip. And might also hit things wich is handeled as Colission. And since he is tripped he is still prone after taking a beating form the ground

 

Yes it is possible to kick a foes butt and be knocked out by the ground because he trips you. In fact tripping a speedster is a very good idea, just like it would be with normally running person (if you ever felt the need).

[bigbywolfe]

Speedster (Blue Streak) is DEX 30' date=' SPD 8, 37" Running. Blue Streak zips past the villain, who is about the half-way point of Blue Streak's Full Move.. We do a DEX roll-off, because of the villain's Held Action. Blue Streak makes his roll by a lot more than the villain. He attacks with his Passing Strike martial maneuver,scores a hit and rolls damage. [b']He continues on (it is a Passing Strike, after all), coming to a stop 15" from the villain.[/b]

And there is your mental hickup. The real sequence is:

The Speedster starts his action and starts moving.

Speedster get's into HTH-Range: Both Character now have legitimate reason to act (The Speedster because of his action, the Villain because of his held action). The only question is wich one acts first because one attack might negate the other (stunn, KO) or make it harder (trip penalty) - might, but doesn't have too. That is all the DEX Roll cares about. Everything happens now, mid action of the Speedster.

Afterwards the Speedster Continues his movement (hopefully he still has control, see below) and end his Action.

 

You used the example Passing Strike vs Defensive Throw. It is important to note that "Defensive" in this context only means "This martial maneuver has a higher DCV Bonus but not such a big STR/DC/OCV Bonus compared to similar Maneuvers" Just compare Martial Strike, Defensive Strike and Offensive Strike to get the idea.

Also note that "Trip" and "Prone" are a bit abstract: You can be "Tripped" while Flying and don't automatically fall to the ground - but you still have Prone Penalties until you use a half phase to "adjust yourself".

 

The Rules leave for me exaclty one clear way this Situation would resolve:

If the Villain won the dex roll, his attack would go first and could make the Speedsters attack harder (Prone penalties, see Groudnfighting, -2 OCV) if he hits and suceeds.

If the Speedester won, his attack would go first and could invalidate the Held Action (Stunned, KO, KB if not down the movement Path) if he hits and does enough damage.

If they tie, reroll until one wins the DEX Contest.

 

Regardless of who went first:

If the Speedster attack succeded, the Villain took damage.

If the Villains attack succeded, the speedster would be prone - mid movement not a nice thing. He propably (depends on the specific build) could not continue to use his movement power. He also can't switch to a different movement power (because he can't take a Zero-Phase action during his other actions and already comitted to a Full Phase/Attack action), even if he should have a power for this. If a Characters Movement Powers stops being able to cover his Current Speed, he enter "uncontrolled Movement". He takes Veloctity based damage as described under Trip. And might also hit things wich is handeled as Colission. And since he is tripped he is still prone after taking a beating form the ground

 

Yes it is possible to kick a foes butt and be knocked out by the ground because he trips you. In fact tripping a speedster is a very good idea, just like it would be with normally running person (if you ever felt the need).

So you are saying he should get to hit the speedster even if he loses the DEX contest? I can't quite tell from what you said even though I've already read it twice.

[psyber624]

The problem with that concept is the held action vs movement action. If I win the Dex Roll in a passing strike but can still be hit, then, by that same reasoning, even if I win the Dex roll and move out of range of an attacker then they can still hit me because by that reasoning our actions are occuring at the same time.

 

If that is your intention thats fine, it definitely helps melee attackers and makes melee builds a bit more attractive but that was not my understanding of how the rules work. I believe this same argument was largely hashed out in a similar thread about Interposing to prevent someone from simply moving by you (at least until it got derailed into a discussion of AOO's in D&D.)

[Balabanto]

Held Action vs. Movement is irrelevant. If you are holding an action, you get an attack on the way in. Period. Unless he provides a convincing explanation of why his maneuver is so surprising that the Villain should be at 1/2 DCV, flat footed or otherwise cockeyed, he gets to attack if he goes first. Unless the Speedster acted on his action to perform a Cover maneuver, in which case he takes the -2 OCV penalty and risks failure at the moment of truth, and the villain gets smashed in the face if he makes the roll, regardless of whether or not the villain has a held.

 

1) Held Action: May be taken at any time to interrupt another action.

 

2) Cover Maneuver: I take my action on my turn to Cover Fred. Fred attempts to do something. I shoot Fred. Hit or miss, my attack goes off then.

 

If he had performed a Cover maneuver on his action, then the villain couldn't interrupt him with an HtH Attack. If he didn't, the villain gets to punch him in the face before his action resolves.

[bigbywolfe]

Held Action vs. Movement is irrelevant. If you are holding an action, you get an attack on the way in. Period. Unless he provides a convincing explanation of why his maneuver is so surprising that the Villain should be at 1/2 DCV, flat footed or otherwise cockeyed, he gets to attack if he goes first. Unless the Speedster acted on his action to perform a Cover maneuver, in which case he takes the -2 OCV penalty and risks failure at the moment of truth, and the villain gets smashed in the face if he makes the roll, regardless of whether or not the villain has a held.

 

1) Held Action: May be taken at any time to interrupt another action.

 

2) Cover Maneuver: I take my action on my turn to Cover Fred. Fred attempts to do something. I shoot Fred. Hit or miss, my attack goes off then.

 

If he had performed a Cover maneuver on his action, then the villain couldn't interrupt him with an HtH Attack. If he didn't, the villain gets to punch him in the face before his action resolves.

Your number 1 is slightly off. Held action may be taken any time to attempt to interrupt another action. He waited until the speedster declared he was attacking him and thus a DEX contest was required to see who got to go first. The speedster won, he went first, and his action brought him out of range.