Levels in Defense

[Captain Liberty]

This came up in my campaign recently. I thought we were all in agreement on this, but apparently there are differences, and reading the rules did not help.

 

Are 3-point levels in specific attacks, such as a catgirl's claw, bite,and grab, only good in defense against those specific attacks, or against any hand-to-hand, such as an attack with a sword?

 

It seems to me that the character is getting the benefit of a 5-point hand-to-hand level if the latter is the case, but I could see a logic argument for it in reality terms, if not game system terms.

 

Any comments?

[Vondy]

Re: Levels in Defense

 

Originally posted by Captain Liberty

This came up in my campaign recently. I thought we were all in agreement on this, but apparently there are differences, and reading the rules did not help.

 

Are 3-point levels in specific attacks, such as a catgirl's claw, bite,and grab, only good in defense against those specific attacks, or against any hand-to-hand, such as an attack with a sword?

 

It seems to me that the character is getting the benefit of a 5-point hand-to-hand level if the latter is the case, but I could see a logic argument for it in reality terms, if not game system terms.

 

Any comments?

 

If the player purchased the levels with a specific weapon, narrow class of weapons then they get those levels for any maneuver they perform with those weapons (but not with other weapons). If the player purchased the levels with a narrow set of maneuvers, or a specific martial art, then they get those levels for those specific maneuvers, or with maneuvers from that particular martial art - as an OCV bonus.

 

So, if the player purchased levels with "katana" they would get those levels with any maneuver they performed using a katana, but not a staff, or ax, or whatnot.

 

If the player purchased levels with "ninjitsu" they would get the levels with any ninjitsu maneuver they had, but not other maneuvers.

 

The one thing to keep in mind, however, is that levels bought for "barehanded maneuvers" can only be used with weapons if they pay for the weapon element that allows it (IIRC).

 

A 5 point HTH level would allow them to use the level for OCV or DCV with any maneuver (martial or standard) or any melee weapon.

[Monolith]

I believe the rule is written to the extent that the DCV can only be gained when the character is being attacked with Claw, Bite, or Grab attack.

[misterdeath]

Reading between the lines of the FAQ:

 

Q: If a character applies a Combat Skill Level to increase his DCV, do the changes to his DCV last until his next Phase?

 

A: They last until he decides to switch the CSL to something else — definitely until the next Phase, and possibly longer. However, that doesn’t change what they apply to; a 3-point CSL with swords doesn’t improve a character’s DCV versus arrows, no matter how long it lasts.

 

I emphasized the relevant part.

 

If the character has a Melee combat CSL, then they can apply it to DCV, but only in Melee combat while using what they have bought the levels for.

 

Catgirl, while using her Claws can drop her CSLs into DCV and apply them vs Swordsmaster. Laser Larry gets full shots on her, and she doesn't get to apply them to clawing Swordsmaster.

 

Yeah, there's a heck of a lot of overlap with the 5 point levels, depending on the definition of the maneuvers the 3 point levels work with.

 

D

[Vondy]

I should have read more carefully. I would only allow them to use the levels with the maneuvers purchased, and would only allow them to use the levels for DCV against those maneuvers.

[Pattern Ghost]

Unless the FAQ has something to add, 3 point levels can be used for OCV or DCV when using the attacks they were bought for. It doesn't say anything about the attack defended against, other than the rule about hand to hand levels put in DCV not applying vs. ranged.

 

So, if Sharpy has a 3 point level with Swords, he can apply it to OCV or DCV in hand to hand combat while he's using a sword. If Brickmeister has a 3 pt. level with Punch, Haymaker, and Grab, he can apply it to DCV vs. hand to hand attacks if he's making a Punch, a Haymaker, or a Grab attack.

[misterdeath]

And from Fred itself, pg 35.

 

...(for example , a CSL with a swordfighting martial art could increase DCV in HTH combat, but not against Ranged)...

 

D

[Monolith]

Originally posted by misterdeath

If the character has a Melee combat CSL, then they can apply it to DCV, but only in Melee combat while using what they have bought the levels for.

I think that is actually correct. When Catgirl uses her claws she can use her levels for DCV versus any HTH attack, but if she is doing a punch she cannot, as her levels do not work for punch. This is verified by the question about Energy Blasts and levels in the FAQ, where Steve states the Ranged DCV bonus would only be working when the character is using his Energy Blast.

[Vondy]

Originally posted by Monolith

I think that is actually correct. When Catgirl uses her claws she can use her levels for DCV versus any HTH attack, but if she is doing a punch she cannot, as her levels do not work for punch. This is verified by the question about Energy Blasts and levels in the FAQ, where Steve states the Ranged DCV bonus would only be working when the character is using his Energy Blast.

 

Makes sense to me

[Captain Liberty]

Thanks for input

 

So the consensus as I see it is that catgirl, to use my original example, can take her 4 levels in claw, etc. and say that she is putting them all in Defense, and have those levels in her hand-to-hand DCV as long as she is performing one of the three attacks.

 

These levels would not apply to ranged attacks. Or would they?

[Vondy]

Re: Thanks for input

 

Originally posted by Captain Liberty

So the consensus as I see it is that catgirl, to use my original example, can take her 4 levels in claw, etc. and say that she is putting them all in Defense, and have those levels in her hand-to-hand DCV as long as she is performing one of the three attacks.

 

These levels would not apply to ranged attacks. Or would they?

 

I would argue that they should not apply to ranged attacks.

[misterdeath]

Definately not for ranged attacks.

 

D

[JeffreyWKramer]

Keep in mind that most bonuses for combat maneuvers don't have any impact on DCV vs. Ranged Attacks - in fact, none of them do unless they specifically say they do. Thus, of the standard/martial maneuvers, Dodge and Martial Dodge do lend their bonuses to DCV vs. All Attacks, but most of the rest do not. That right there tells you that levels with three maneuvers/attacks, or a tight group of attacks, should not benefit DCV vs. ranged attacks unless the maneuvers in question provide their bons vs. ranged attacks.

 

I believe the rules state that in general, the lowest-value CSL that improves DCV vs. all attacks is a 5-point DCV level, and that 2- and 3-point CSVs are almost always OCV-only. The obvious exception to that would be putting a 3-point level in, say, Aikido, on Martial Dodge or some other maneuver that specifically says it provides its bonus to all attacks. Say Aikido Lad has a 3-point level in Aikido. He could gain an extra +1 DCV by putting that level onto Martial Dodge on a given phase, but if he was doing a throw the next phase, there's no way that level could benefit his DCV vs. Ranged Attacks.

 

Catgirl's 3-point CSV with claw, bite and grab should *never* benefit her DCV vs. Ranged Attacks, because none of those maneuvers apply a DCV bonus against all attacks.

[badger3k]

Originally posted by JeffreyWKramer

Keep in mind that most bonuses for combat maneuvers don't have any impact on DCV vs. Ranged Attacks - in fact, none of them do unless they specifically say they do. Thus, of the standard/martial maneuvers, Dodge and Martial Dodge do lend their bonuses to DCV vs. All Attacks, but most of the rest do not. That right there tells you that levels with three maneuvers/attacks, or a tight group of attacks, should not benefit DCV vs. ranged attacks unless the maneuvers in question provide their bons vs. ranged attacks.

 

I believe the rules state that in general, the lowest-value CSL that improves DCV vs. all attacks is a 5-point DCV level, and that 2- and 3-point CSVs are almost always OCV-only. The obvious exception to that would be putting a 3-point level in, say, Aikido, on Martial Dodge or some other maneuver that specifically says it provides its bonus to all attacks. Say Aikido Lad has a 3-point level in Aikido. He could gain an extra +1 DCV by putting that level onto Martial Dodge on a given phase, but if he was doing a throw the next phase, there's no way that level could benefit his DCV vs. Ranged Attacks.

 

Catgirl's 3-point CSV with claw, bite and grab should *never* benefit her DCV vs. Ranged Attacks, because none of those maneuvers apply a DCV bonus against all attacks.

 

Where does it say that a maneuvers DCV adjustment does not apply vs ranged attacks? I've looked through FRED and UMA and can't find reference to this. Does this mean that a brick using a haymaker is not at -5 DCV vs laser lad? If you can point it out, I'd appreciate it (not trying to be funny or insulting, just haven't found anything stating any limits on maneuver adjustments). Whoops, found one from the FAQ:

 

Q:_ If a character’s DCV is modified by a Combat Maneuver, does that modification affect all attacks against him, or just HTH attacks?

_

A:_ It affects all attacks, in the interest of playability and dramatic realism. A GM who wanted to emphasize real-world realism, or who wanted maneuvers to be consistent with Combat Skill Levels, could rule that they only apply to HTH or Ranged Combat, depending on the type of attack the maneuver was used to make.

 

Therefore, there is a difference between maneuvers and CSLs (unless of course, you play that way). For CSLs, 3 point CSLs can provide DCV, but only for the same type of combat as the attack (ranged or hth). This always struck me as strange - skill with a rifle helps you dodge bullets?

 

The way I read it, a 5 point CSL can be bought as OCV and/or DCV (switchable) with HTH or Ranged, OR it can be bought as DCV vs All (cannot be switched).

 

I think the FAQ says that you can use the CSL as DCV when using the attack/maneuver/whatever you bought it with, so I'd agree with other posters that if catgirl used her claw attack and put the CSL into DCV, it would work for HTH only.

[Captain Liberty]

levels vs ranged attack

 

Taking as assumed that hand to hand levels are only usable against hand to hand attacks, that does bring up the interesting question of using ranged levels as DCV.

 

Leaving aside arguments about it being impossible to see a bullet (or energy beam) coming (a proposition obviously erroneous according to almost any comic book story) the question as stated asks whether knowing how to shoot a rifle allows one to dodge bullets.

 

I can actually see this. We have to keep in mind that the levels are in USE of the weapon. One could assume that an experienced pistoleer also knows tricks of movement and using cover that would let him avoid a ranged attack. It's all part of using the weapon.

 

So I think I will so rule in my campaign.

 

Thanks everyone, for your input.

[JeffreyWKramer]

Originally posted by badger3k

Where does it say that a maneuvers DCV adjustment does not apply vs ranged attacks? I've looked through FRED and UMA and can't find reference to this. Does this mean that a brick using a haymaker is not at -5 DCV vs laser lad? If you can point it out, I'd appreciate it (not trying to be funny or insulting, just haven't found anything stating any limits on maneuver adjustments). Whoops, found one from the FAQ:

 

Q:_ If a character’s DCV is modified by a Combat Maneuver, does that modification affect all attacks against him, or just HTH attacks?

_

A:_ It affects all attacks, in the interest of playability and dramatic realism. A GM who wanted to emphasize real-world realism, or who wanted maneuvers to be consistent with Combat Skill Levels, could rule that they only apply to HTH or Ranged Combat, depending on the type of attack the maneuver was used to make.

 

Ah, this seems to be a change from previous editions (still learning all the wrinkles of 5E). I guess the language of the maneuvers still carries over from the old interpretation, which is why Dodge and Martial Dodge state they provide a DCV bonus to all attacks (as opposed to just HTH)

[badger3k]

Originally posted by JeffreyWKramer

Ah, this seems to be a change from previous editions (still learning all the wrinkles of 5E). I guess the language of the maneuvers still carries over from the old interpretation, which is why Dodge and Martial Dodge state they provide a DCV bonus to all attacks (as opposed to just HTH)

 

OK - havin' some trouble myself with little changes from earlier editions. The Dodge maneuvers are still a puzzle - maybe your right on that.

[JeffreyWKramer]

Originally posted by badger3k

OK - havin' some trouble myself with little changes from earlier editions. The Dodge maneuvers are still a puzzle - maybe your right on that.

 

Well, the FAQ pretty clearly states it that in 5E as a default, the DCV modifiers - penalties and bonuses - from combat maneuvers apply to all combat, unless the GM decides otherwise. Dodge and Martial Dodge have always functioned vs. all attacks - the only thing that seems different here is that in the past, the bonuses from, say, Martial Block, didn't make one harder to hit with a gun.

 

Actually - and I may be off on this one - wasn't the old rule that maneuver DCV bonuses (other than for Dodge/Martial Dodge) only applied in HTH, but that penalties applied vs. all attacks?

[AnotherSkip]

Now waitaminute

 

What about the Randal Irons Example in FREd?

 

Wherein Randal can use his Knife Skills to defend himself from KNife attacks? it seens to be a bit different than what is being said here.

[badger3k]

Originally posted by AnotherSkip

Now waitaminute

 

What about the Randal Irons Example in FREd?

 

Wherein Randal can use his Knife Skills to defend himself from KNife attacks? it seens to be a bit different than what is being said here.

 

Actually that's what we've been saying (it can get confusing) - in 5e, combat manuever DCV mods apply vs all attacks. Skill levels are different.

 

Page 36: Irons has a 3 point CSL with pistols, a 3 point CSL with knives, and an 8-point with all Combat. The 8-point skill level can be used for OCV or DCV for all attacks. The 3 point CSL with pistols could be +1 OCV with pistols OR +1 DCV vs ranged attacks (when using the pistol). The 3 point CSL with knives can be +1 OCV with knives OR +1 DCV vs HTH (when using knives). So in the example, he puts both 3pt pistol and 8pt overall in OCV, giving him +2. He can't use his 3pt level with knives for OCV or DCV since he's using a pistol. If he wanted to, he could put his 3 pt pistol and 8 pt overall into DCV (+2 vs Ranged) - I believe the 8 pt overall level (CSL) would also provide +1 DCV vs HTH at the same time (so he'd be +1 DCV vs HTH, +2 DCV vs Ranged that phase).

 

Makes sense?

 

I loaned my 4th ed book to a friend to learn the basics of the system (since I only have 1 FRED), so I can't look up the earlier rules.

[Farkling]

IT also states somewhere in that bundle of rules that 5 pt levels bought for DCV only apply ranged AND HtH aitacks. This supports the general consensus so far on 3 pt levels.

 

It also provides justification for the 8 pt level. It is actually morecost efficient than a 5 pt level and a 3 pt level, unless you have a very tight spread of attack powers.

[badger3k]

Originally posted by Farkling

IT also states somewhere in that bundle of rules that 5 pt levels bought for DCV only apply ranged AND HtH aitacks. This supports the general consensus so far on 3 pt levels.

 

It also provides justification for the 8 pt level. It is actually morecost efficient than a 5 pt level and a 3 pt level, unless you have a very tight spread of attack powers.

 

yeah - p36 - 5 pt levels can be DCV vs all if bought as DCV only. However, Steve answered my question on the mods and the FAQ apparently says that the DCV mods apply only to HTH AND that they apply to All. So it contradicts itself. Hasn't answered my second question pointing this out yet.

[JeffreyWKramer]

Originally posted by badger3k

yeah - p36 - 5 pt levels can be DCV vs all if bought as DCV only. However, Steve answered my question on the mods and the FAQ apparently says that the DCV mods apply only to HTH AND that they apply to All. So it contradicts itself. Hasn't answered my second question pointing this out yet.

 

Actually, he has replied since you posted this. The FAQ includes two statements that are in conflict, and he says that will be changed. The official ruling is that the modifers from HTH combat maneuvers apply only in HTH combat - with the exception of Dodge, Martial Dodge and any maneuver built with Dodge as a base (the DCV mods from those maneuvers apply to all attacks). So, it turns out my initial statement was correct for 5E as well as for previous editions. I was pretty sure I'd read that somewhere in 5E, but couldn't find it at the moment.

[misterdeath]

Originally posted by AnotherSkip

Now waitaminute

 

What about the Randal Irons Example in FREd?

 

Wherein Randal can use his Knife Skills to defend himself from KNife attacks? it seens to be a bit different than what is being said here.

 

Artifactal example. It's a cut and paste from 4E that wasn't updated, IMO.

 

D

[badger3k]

Originally posted by JeffreyWKramer

Actually, he has replied since you posted this. The FAQ includes two statements that are in conflict, and he says that will be changed. The official ruling is that the modifers from HTH combat maneuvers apply only in HTH combat - with the exception of Dodge, Martial Dodge and any maneuver built with Dodge as a base (the DCV mods from those maneuvers apply to all attacks). So, it turns out my initial statement was correct for 5E as well as for previous editions. I was pretty sure I'd read that somewhere in 5E, but couldn't find it at the moment.

 

Read it today - it still makes no sense - if the grond haymakers somebody, he's -5 DCV for karate boy, but not laser lad? I'm going to play the unofficial way and have them vs all, just keep skill levels different. If you do find it in the rulebook, please post or PM me the page - I still can't find anything anywhere - and it should state it somewhere, don't ya think?

 

However, the Randall Irons example is iffy for skill levels, since it refers to his CSL with the knife, which could be used for DCV vs HTH. The FAQ has semi-contradictory sources on this:

 

Quote 1:

Q:_ If a character has a 3-point Combat Skill Level with, say, Energy Blast, can he apply that CSL to his DCV on any Phase, or only Phases when he uses his EB?

_

A:_ A character can only allocate a CSL on a Phase when he uses an attack/power that CSL applies to. So, in the example given above, the CSL can only be assigned to DCV on Phases when the character uses his EB.

_

Quote 2:

Q:_ If a character has Combat Skill Levels with a weapon, does he have to have that weapon drawn to apply them?

_

A:_ Possibly. Whether characters have their weapons drawn generally shouldn’t be the deciding factor in whether they can assign their CSLs in any given situation; that tends to cut things way too fine for RPG purposes. However, the GM can take that fact into account when deciding what CSLs can be assigned, and how, if he wishes. It might be an appropriate consideration for CSLs with Fencing or Swords; it never should be for CSLs with, say, HTH Combat or All Combat.

 

The most likely reading of this is that Irons would not be able to use the CSL for knives as DCV if he was using his pistol at the time. He may have been two-weapon fighting, however, it isn't stated. Hopefully, the next edition will make things clearer.

 

Relevant to the original topic:

*NEW*Q:_ If a character has 3-point Combat Skill Levels with, e.g., Punch, Claw, and Grab, can those Levels only add to DCV against those three specific Maneuvers, or against any HTH Combat attack?

_

A:_ They can provide DCV against any HTH Combat attack.