Wildshape help wanted

[badger3k]

OK - most people are familiar with a druids ability to assume the form of any animal (with size limitations/etc). This ability cannot be easily done as now written in the hero system. Basic info. So how can I do it?

 

I don't want to go the "you start out with one shape (or 4) and can learn more later as you gain experience (and divine favor/etc)" route, and shapechange doesn't cut it. Either transform usable only on self, or multiform with some kind of advantage (variable SFX came to mind, but I think the +1/2 is too low, way too low).

 

As a transform, I figured :

 

4d6 Major transform (body), standard effect (so 12 body, enough for an average non-fighter, can be adjusted up as needed). [60 points base]

 

Target into limited group (animals) (+1/4). [75 active] - limited to human sized or smaller animals at this level.

 

Healing is limited to: until 4 hours (the time for a 4th level druid, when the power is gained) or when the druid changes back.

 

1 charge (-2)

 

Costs END to activate (-1/4) - in my campaign, spells cost END, and this ability should take a little out of the character.

 

Extra Time:Full phase (-1/2) - the ability takes a standard action in 3e (up to 6 seconds - so this could be a full phase or extra phase (for SPD 4 character), so I went with full for ease of use.

 

Concentration, 0 DCV (-1/2), since I think it would affect your senses while changing, taking concentration basically.

 

Self only (limited power) (-1)? this is the tough one - give it no range, or just this one limitation - I think this would be the one to use, IMO. Feels better and less munchkiney. -1 takes half power, and I think thats appropriate, since its an advantage, not an attack, I think it's a good compromise.

 

Requires Skill Roll (Faith) (-1/2) - this should be included since the druid would have to be on good terms with his diety/nature to have the power - can substitute "must follow dieties will" or some such ability too.

 

total limitations: 4.75

 

Real cost: 13 points.

 

Any comments would be appreciated.

[Lord Liaden]

Correct me if I'm wrong, but it sounds as though you want the druid to be able to change into any type of animal, one change per day. Do I have that right?

 

If you're comfortable ignoring the recommendation in the rulebook that Transform not be used to change the user of the Transform, this sounds like it would work. I should point out, though, that you have to do twice the BODY of the target to successfully Transform it. So, to do this to a 12 BODY character with a single Transform using Standard Effect, you would need 8d6 of Transform.

 

Might I suggest an alternative that would be "rules-legal?" A Variable Power Pool, Only For Multiform (probably a -1 Limitation on the Control Cost). This would give you an unlimited range of Multiforms that you could change into. You can also apply most of the Limitations you suggested to the Control Cost to make it less expensive. It would probably still be more expensive than the Transform construct, though. Then again, considering its versatility, perhaps it should be.

[Mordacius]

This came up in a game that I was going to run, and we settled on a Multiform VPP. It's got several advantages over the Transform:

 

- It doesn't involve hand waving any rules, which saves on later confusion about what's legal and why.

 

- It's not random in any way. All you have to do is flip to the appropriate page of the Bestiary, and check the beast's total points.

 

Transform would take longer depending on the power of the shape assumed. (The animal shape wouldn't *just* require doing double BODY - the character would also have to do extra points if the animal form had a bunch of new powers they wanted. D&D Wild Shape is a standard action, IIRC.)

 

- The character has an unlimited number of shapes, but still has an upper limit to the power of the abilities they can mimic. Technically, that construction of Transform does not.

 

For instance, a really, really fatal snake would be possible under that Transform (which is limited only by size), but not under the VPP construction. That may not be true to the letter of the D&D rules, but I feel it's true to their spirit.

[badger3k]

Thanks!

 

Thanks for the replies - I'll answer both of you.

 

Originally posted by Lord Liaden

Correct me if I'm wrong, but it sounds as though you want the druid to be able to change into any type of animal, one change per day. Do I have that right?

 

Yes - that's the way it works.

If you're comfortable ignoring the recommendation in the rulebook that Transform not be used to change the user of the Transform, this sounds like it would work. I should point out, though, that you have to do twice the BODY of the target to successfully Transform it. So, to do this to a 12 BODY character with a single Transform using Standard Effect, you would need 8d6 of Transform.

 

Doh! I rarely use transform, and its also been a while. I just forgot about the 2x Body rule. I probably would hand-wave the rule of no-self transform, since I'm the GM, but I would have to think about it - the things that make it attractive for this ability can lead to abuses if I let players use it (although I didn't see it when writing the power up).

 

Might I suggest an alternative that would be "rules-legal?" A Variable Power Pool, Only For Multiform (probably a -1 Limitation on the Control Cost). This would give you an unlimited range of Multiforms that you could change into. You can also apply most of the Limitations you suggested to the Control Cost to make it less expensive. It would probably still be more expensive than the Transform construct, though. Then again, considering its versatility, perhaps it should be.

 

That was the other idea I had, but I hadn't worked out costs, so I just presented the transform.

 

Originally posted by Mordacius

This came up in a game that I was going to run, and we settled on a Multiform VPP. It's got several advantages over the Transform:

 

- It doesn't involve hand waving any rules, which saves on later confusion about what's legal and why.

 

- It's not random in any way. All you have to do is flip to the appropriate page of the Bestiary, and check the beast's total points.

 

Just to show my thoughts, the bestiary would be used for the other form too (the transform that is) - at the first use (actually 5th level, so 5 hours duration, I goofed - long day again) the druid can only change into normal animals of Medium size or smaller (the human sized limit in Hero).

 

Transform would take longer depending on the power of the shape assumed. (The animal shape wouldn't *just* require doing double BODY - the character would also have to do extra points if the animal form had a bunch of new powers they wanted. D&D Wild Shape is a standard action, IIRC.)

 

I put in the full phase extra time to reflect the standard action - since a round is 6 seconds, a standard would be about 3-seconds, which is the equivalent of a half-phase of a SPD 2 character, but a full for a SPD 4 (that sounds wrong, but its right) - I decided to go with the full phase.

 

The way I would use it, the loophole applies - look at the beastman spell - you can change somebody into an animal, but lets look at one. Change a man into a Gorilla (bestiary p 165) - the man gains a 25 STR, arm swing, bite, roar, etc - but he has 110 disadvantage points (remove the poachers and near-human intelligence if you want, its still 85 points - more than the cost of all its abilities. So there is no extra cost to get these abilities. Not quite the way its intended, I'm sure, but it is a loophole.

 

The way I would use it is if the creature has less total points than the character, the transform goes as written. If its over than either more Body needs to be done, or the Faith roll would go down by "x" points (maybe -1 per 10 extra, or even -1 per 5.

 

- The character has an unlimited number of shapes, but still has an upper limit to the power of the abilities they can mimic. Technically, that construction of Transform does not.

 

For instance, a really, really fatal snake would be possible under that Transform (which is limited only by size), but not under the VPP construction. That may not be true to the letter of the D&D rules, but I feel it's true to their spirit.

 

OK - I'll have to work out the VPP costs and see how it works out. Thanks for giving me the input - especially since its worked for you.

[badger3k]

OK - worked up a VPP - it is more expensive, and may bend the rules, but it also allows all human-sized and smaller mundane animals in the bestiary, since the highest cost I found is the cheetah at 204 points.

 

It looks like:

 

VPP - wildshape ability

 

42 point pool, 21 point control cost

Multiform only (-1)

Charges (1/day) (-2)

Costs END to activate (-1/4)

Extra time (full phase) (-1/2)

Concentration 0 DCV (-1/2)

Requires Faith roll (0) since the pool roll is not used - there’s only one power it can be, (although the multiform does change eventually when it goes to 2+ per day), this is pretty much default.

Normal animals human size or smaller (-1/2)

 

So we get a 42 point pool cost and 4 point control cost.

 

46 points - still pretty hefty for a one-use per day power, but when it goes up in uses and such, it might go down and be worth it. I'll have to look into that.

 

Any comments?

[badger3k]

oopd- after sitting down and looking at it, the limitation of only human-sized or smaller animals should be on the multiform, which puts the control cost at 4 points - the same. The limitations on the multiform are pretty meaningless for the vpp, since it doesn't change the active cost.

 

still 46 points.

 

The transform (at 8d6), would be 125 active, and 22 real. Less points but more bending.

[CourtFool]

Without doing a lot of math I do not know if this would be any cheaper, but it is another way to go. Shape Shift and Shrinking in an EC. Shrinking since the form can be less than Human size. Then use a VPP to simulate the powers of the animal in question. Since the form can only be 'normal animals' you may find that most of their powers can be classified into tighter groups. With enough tweaking you might even be able to put animal powers into 4 or 5 groups and then even put them in another EC or Multipower and be able to add your limitations to bring the cost down even further.

[austenandrews]

Does the spellcaster/magic item in question already have a power framework? The Multiform might be cheaper if some framework points are already spent.

 

-AA

[Galadorn]

Originally posted by Mordacius

This came up in a game that I was going to run, and we settled on a Multiform VPP.

 

I agree.

[Galadorn]

Originally posted by badger3k

VPP - wildshape ability

 

42 point pool, 21 point control cost

Multiform only (-1)

Charges (1/day) (-2)

Costs END to activate (-1/4)

Extra time (full phase) (-1/2)

Concentration 0 DCV (-1/2)

Requires Faith roll (0) since the pool roll is not used - there’s only one power it can be, (although the multiform does change eventually when it goes to 2+ per day), this is pretty much default.

Normal animals human size or smaller (-1/2)

 

You forgot the continuing charges, otherwise the druid would only be a particular animal form for one phase. Probably better would be a DMs option limitation (Only a limited number of forms per day, -1/4 to -1); or 1 continuing charge - 1 minute.

[badger3k]

Originally posted by Galadorn

You forgot the continuing charges, otherwise the druid would only be a particular animal form for one phase. Probably better would be a DMs option limitation (Only a limited number of forms per day, -1/4 to -1); or 1 continuing charge - 1 minute.

 

You're right - missed the charge time limit - I'll have to change that around then. Erk - more work - took it up to 15-16th level, putting point costs for the wildshape ability - the elemental part threw me - where the multiform gos up to 7 per day with one use per day only for elementals. limitations on charges themselves?

 

Hadn't thought about it being part of a mpp or ec - that would save points. Don't know how I'd work it, though.

[austenandrews]

Originally posted by badger3k

Hadn't thought about it being part of a mpp or ec - that would save points. Don't know how I'd work it, though.

 

Hmm, off the top of my head:

 

VPP: 40 pt pool, 20 pt control reduced to, say, 5 pts. = 45 pts. for unlimited options

 

MP: 40 pt pool reduced to, say, 10 pts. + 17 x 4 pt Ultras reduced to, say, 2 pts = 44 pts. for 17 options

 

The VPP gives you a better spread of options, but 17 animal forms should cover most cases. And with the MP you can get in with one option for 12 pts, or five options for 20 pts, and work your way up.

 

(Of course I'm not even sure Multiform is allowed in a MP, since it's not a power I've ever used. But I wouldn't have a problem with the construct in a game I ran.)

 

-AA

[Galadorn]

Originally posted by badger3k

You're right - missed the charge time limit - I'll have to change that around then. Erk - more work - took it up to 15-16th level, putting point costs for the wildshape ability - the elemental part threw me - where the multiform gos up to 7 per day with one use per day only for elementals. limitations on charges themselves?

 

Hadn't thought about it being part of a mpp or ec - that would save points. Don't know how I'd work it, though.

 

I gave you two options, I think Option A is a better bet.

• 
  OPTION A
  1. Buy a the powers, skills and cha's seperately: HKAs, Armor (Hide), Enhanced Senses, for the highest cost for each specific animal. So Enhance Senses would be +5. Figure the characteristics, using the druids characteristics as a base.
   
  2. Assign limitations: Only in animal form -1/4, Power level only as appropriate for each specific animal form -1/4 or -1/2 - I can't decide. And any other limitations you choose.
   
  Simply use the same HKA, Armor, Enhanced Senses cost for each animal. The differentiation of the animal forms is based on special effect (wildshape) and the limitation (appropriate animal form). Just have the animal's character sheet handy for the player to look at when taking on a specific animal form.
   
  3. You don't need shapeshift, since the special effect is changing shape, there is no appearing, the druid smells, looks, tastes and feels like the animal he wildshapes too. He is is the animal he shapes to, in all ways but his non-physical characterstics (INT, EGO, PRE).
   
  4. You might need variable special effect +1/4, since he does change between different animal shapes.
   
  OPTION B
  1. Characteristics: Use the character's characteristics, figure how much of each characteristic you would need, to reach the animal's characteristics' total. Probably best not to figure downward for lower characteristics - the druids is just a very strong mole. Remember, Druids keep the same non-physical characterstics (INT, EGO, PRE) they started with.
   
  Dont forget the limitation (-1/4, only in animal form).
   
  2. Powers: Figure the associated powers with the associated animal: e.g. HKAs, Armor, Enhanced Senses, etc.
   
  3. Skills: Figure the skills the animal form needs, and at what level: e.g Tracking, Climbing, Skill Levels, etc. You may even skip skill levels to emphasize, in a very Hero Gameish way, the druids lack of familiarity with the form.
   
  4. Total: Total the cost for each animal's characteristics, powers and skills. This is the cost for the slot. Now whether you use an elemental control or multipower, you will have the total cost associated with each animal.

 

O.K. when you get all this done, put it up on this thread, because we want to see it. Btw VPPs, as an afterthought, are too expensive for animal shapes. You can't put limitations on the power pool - too rich for my blood.

 

Let us know what happens when you crunch the numbers, please, and which is the cheapest route. You don't have to recrunch the animal cha's etc. just figure the cost for the various options - EC, VPP, MPP.

 

Take Care

[badger3k]

Really long

 

For a start here's the vpp limits on (the equivalent of) levels 5-20

 

Level 5:

Wildshape - 50 point pool, 25 point control

 

Multiform only (-2); Charges, continuing 5 hrs 1/day (0); Costs END to activate (-1/4); Extra time - full phase (-1/2); Concentration 0 DCV (-1/2); Normal animals, human or small size

 

Skill roll is Faith skill, -4 to roll

Lims (3.25) = real cost is 50 + 6 = 56 pts

 

2d6 Healing, simplified, linked to wildshape (-1/2), self-only (-1/2)[20 active, 10 real]

 

Total cost of wildshape is 66 points

 

Level 6:

Charges, continuing 6 hrs, 2/day (+1/4)

Control cost is 31 active

lims (3.25) = real cost is 50 + 7 = 57

Total cost now = 67 points

 

Level 7:

Charges, continuing 7 hrs, 3/day (+3/4)

Control cost is 44 active points

lims (3.25) = 10 points control

Total cost now = 70 points

 

Level 8:

Multiform 270 points max

VPP pool cost 54, control cost 27 (47 active)

Charges, continuing 8 hrs, 3/day (+3/4)

Control cost = (3.25 lims) = 11 real

Total cost is 54 + 11 + 10 = 75 points

change limit to large creatures

Faith roll is now at -5

 

Level 10:

Charges, continuing 10 hrs 4/day (+1)

Control cost is 54 active points

lims (3.25) = 13 real points control cost

total cost now = 77 points

 

Level 11:

change lim to normal animals, tiny to human size, duration to 11 hrs

no change to cost

 

Level 12:

Change lim to plant creatures and normal animals, tiny to human size, duration to 12 hours, no change to cost

 

Level 14

Charges, continuing 14 hours, 5/day (+1 1/4)

control cost = 61 active, (3.25 lims) = 14 real.

total cost is 78 points.

 

Level 15:

Change size limit to enormous

multiform 320 points max

Pool cost 64, control 32

Charges, continuing 15 hours, 5/day (+1 1/4)

control active = 72.

limd 3.25 = 17 real points

Faith roll at -6

 

total cost of power = 64 + 17 + 10 = 91 points

 

(edited to remove the need for 2 vpps - now have partially limited vpp - one part for normal animals, one for elementals (small to enormous in size)

 

Here's the combined power at 16th level -

normal wildshape - 64 pool, 32 control, 6/day for 16 hrs is (+1 1/4)

active 72, 17 real.

Elemental - additional 42 pool, 21 control. 1/day for 16 hrs (+1/4)

actve 26, real 6

Total cost of power is 64 + 17 + 42 + 6 + 10 (healing) = 139 points.

 

Level 18 is

64 point pool, 32 control; Charges, 8/day at 18 hrs (+1 1/2); Control cost is 80 active, 19 real

 

plus 42 point pool, 21 control; Charges 2/day at 18 hours (+1/2); Control is 31 active, 7 real.

Total of power is 64 + 19 + 42 + 7 + 10 = 142 points

 

Level 20 is:

64 pool, 32 control; Charges 9/day at 20 hours (+ 1 3/4); Control cost is 88/21 A/R

 

Plus 42 pool, 21 control; Charges 3/day at 20 hours (+3/4); Control is 37 active, 9 real. Size limit for elementals now includes enormous size.

 

total is 64 + 21 + 42 + 9 + 10 = 146 points

 

I'll post others as I work on them.

 

[edited - to add 40 cp for int & ego - as it stands now, the animals are built on 45 more cp, which should go to the animals Int & Ego - so that the druid has the same Int & Ego in both forms. Not sure if it was limited correctly, though. To add the elemental form ability, the power has a max of 3 uses per day. To go to the full 106 point multiform (530 point elemental), one charge on each part must be used (one for the basic, one for the extra).

 

The basic charges are also limited - but since the limitation is on the charges themselves (3 max, only for elemental wildshape), I counted that as a 0 limitation.]

[badger3k]

Ack! Forgot to change the pool - as written, the multiform would result in the animal as written in the beastiary. To ensure that the druids Int and Ego are unchanged, 40 cp need to be added (so pool cost goes up 8, control by 4 active). So the numbers above are off by 10 or so points. When I do the refigure, I''ll edit the above figures (and make sure he edit is noted in the body). Sorry 'bout that.

[Blue Angel]

Originally posted by Galadorn

You forgot the continuing charges, otherwise the druid would only be a particular animal form for one phase. Probably better would be a DMs option limitation (Only a limited number of forms per day, -1/4 to -1); or 1 continuing charge - 1 minute.

 

Actually the multiform rule specifically mentions charges as automatically being number of changes. Continuing is not required for this particular power.

 

Unless there is an erratum I missed.

[badger3k]

Originally posted by Blue Angel

Actually the multiform rule specifically mentions charges as automatically being number of changes. Continuing is not required for this particular power.

 

Unless there is an erratum I missed.

 

BUGGER!!!!

 

I read over it numerous times, and just miss it!

(rips hair out)

I need to read every line in the book before I start this!

AAAAAAAARGH!

 

(better now) - that's what I get for skimming and relying on memory. Or rather, that's what I get for trying to build something moderately complex with the two powers I've used least. At least I'll remember this now (and remember to read ALL the notes, not just look until I see what may apply).

 

OK - the point costs might change somewhat, but since its the control cost it should not be a major change. It will double the number of charges, though (one for each change), I'll work on it later and post point costs. Before I do, does anybody have suggestions for the duration limitation? Given that it can go from 5 hours to 20, it's extremely variable. After reading the FAQ, this can be an accidental change disad for each animal form, and not a limitation. Probably better that way - probably put it at uncommon and always change (since IME the duration is rarely reached before the druid changes back) - so 20 pt disad.

 

If anybody else notices something I've missed, please let me know. Thanks.

[badger3k]

Hopefully the last

 

OK - changed the charge limitation to no continuing, doubled # of charges, and use the accidental change for the time limit. Point costs per level are:

 

5 - 64 pts

6 - 65 pts

7 - 65 pts

8 - 69 pts

10 - 70 pts

14 - 70 pts

15 - 81 pts

16 - 127 pts

18 - 127 pts

20 - 129 pts

 

A little savings, but not that much.

 

It works, but like others to make it purchaseable for players, I may have to go with the regular multiform. I can limit it to 4 or so shapes at the earliest level, raising them up as they "level up" - basically as they gain experience their ability to handle more shapes improves - or even their link with nature expands and they can learn to become more creatures.

[Farkling]

*sigh*

 

No Bestiary.

 

What's the most points on a normal critter? 200?

PC's in Fantasy Land are what? 150?

 

Let's see then...

 

Wildshape

VPP: Multiform Only

Animal Form has stats of 10 in every category and the VPP to purchase everything needed from the Bestiary Index. The horrible part is the necessity for 200 pts of VPP !!

But wait, we have some characteristics, perhaps we only need 150 in the VPP. I leave that for an exercise of Bestiary owners.

 

AnimalForm

One Power::

150 VPP(150)

37 Control Cost (75) - only to simulate animal abilities, powers are set with Muitiform activation. (-1 Ballparking)

Form Disads

Physical Lim:: Animal Size

Physical Lim:: Animal Shape

 

So this costs, 187 as an alternate form. let's assume the character is about 170 pts (you mentioned 4th level, right?)::

 

WyldShape (30+17 = 187 pt form)

Costs END to activate (-1/4)

Extra time (full phase) (-1/2)

Concentration 0 DCV (-1/2)

Personality Loss (1 hour) (-1)

47 AP = 15 RP

 

 

A higher level version would be:

AnimalForm

200 VPP(200)

50 Control Cost (100) - only to simulate animal abilities, powers are set with Muitiform activation. (-1 Ballparking)

Form Disads

Physical Lim:: Animal Size

Physical Lim:: Animal Shape

 

So this costs, 250 as an alternate form. Let's figure that the character is worth about 200 points::

 

WyldShape (40+50 = 250 pt form)

Costs END to activate (-1/4)

Extra time (full phase) (-1/2)

Concentration 0 DCV (-1/2)

Personality Loss (1 day) (-3/4)

90 AP = 30 RP

 

I think this is better than buying the VPP on the character to generate the MultiForm. The power manifestation in the VPP can certainly generate the apropriate SFX for the new form.

 

I'd use Personality loss over the concept of the continuing charges monstrosity. The time limit is something druids learn during training to prevent "truly becoming one with nature" ...

Much slicker and more dramatic than *BLIP* it shuts off.

 

EDIT:: I messed up the second calculation

[badger3k]

Question:

 

If I understand, the power would be a multiform to one form - which has a VPP used to simulate the animal powers. Is this correct? It is an interesting concept - one I hadn't considered. Using the beastiary, the most points a human size animal has is around 150 pts - I added 45 more to allow for the character to keep their Int and Ego. Larger beasties go to 230 or so (+ enough to end up with 280 pt character.

 

Its prety much the reverse of how I was looking at it, and the VPP power construct is already given in the beastiary - the point costs are worked out, with a few changes per above. A little simpler than what I was looking at, and it works out closer to the way the power should work than what I decided to go with in the druid thread I posted.

 

Thanks

[Farkling]

Bingo.

 

Character Multiforms to Animal Form

 

Animal Form has a a VPP to "copy" the animal from the Bestiary.

"Shape" of said Animal Form is set by the power manifestation of the VPP.

 

It also lets the characters attempt to change into a "young" form or an "old" form of said animal...by tinkering with the power purchases.

 

A young brown bear for the initiate, an OLD Kodiak for the elder druid.

 

Also less bookwork for the GM. Look it up, if it won't fit, then they need to lose power (be younger).

[AnotherSkip]

Erm isnt there like only about 10- different powers for animals (at a base)

Claws, Armor, Running Leaping, Flight, Swim, mebbe a bite and growth/shrink plus a few others?

 

Save points, buy ten powers with Visible turns into appropriate creature and all (or most)are linked together, possibly with Only In Animal Identity (OI-AI) possibly with some side effects. These are animals not superheroes.

[badger3k]

Originally posted by AnotherSkip

Erm isnt there like only about 10- different powers for animals (at a base)

Claws, Armor, Running Leaping, Flight, Swim, mebbe a bite and growth/shrink plus a few others?

 

Save points, buy ten powers with Visible turns into appropriate creature and all (or most)are linked together, possibly with Only In Animal Identity (OI-AI) possibly with some side effects. These are animals not superheroes.

 

True - however, when the character changes form to the animal, his attributes will also change - he can't keep his strength as a sparrow. To me, trying to change it all with an mp or ec is too big a hassle. For superheroes, it would work - but for the fantasy genre (and the rules/baseline I'm working with), its a lot more bookkeeping. Appreciate the input though.

 

Altoghether, it looks like Farkling has the best idea - its simple, cost effective, and is easy to play. Now, all I need to do is rework the druid conversion I posted, and move on to the next. Lots to do...

 

Appreciate all the input from everybody.