Can you help you cut this character down to only 400 points ?

[Rebar]

The "reality" behind a vast majority of supertypes (both comics and gaming) is that, whatever the source of their incredible powers, they almost always enhance the victim's physiology in a host of ways that makes them more than human.

 

It is rare in canon that a supertype will have great powers, yet be physiologically a normal human being. What happens there, is you end up with supertypes that have easily-exploited holes in their combat-readiness  - the most obvious being if their reflexes are no faster than a human.

 

You could be The Human Bazooka, able to deal whopping great loads of damage, but if you're lying unconscious on the floor because Dr. Doom took you out before you blinked, well, you're relegated to security duty at the bank. It is only the well-rounded super that achieves defender-of-the-city notoriety.

 

So, you buy up your characteristics with the special effect of 'space-time-enhanced speed/awareness/reflexes/strength/healing etc'

 

 

You maybe taking "characteristics" too literally. If his space-time-adeptness allows him to recharge his endurance faster than a normal person can, you do not need to buy that as a power - just buy it as an increased End characteristic. Same with his DEX and SPD or any other ability.

 

It is all right if you bought all your powers as unified. You can still buy your characteristics up as part of that power special effect. Think of it this way: Characteristics are just Powers, like every other power in the book - they just happen to be powers that everyone has (to a greater or lesser extent), so they're given a special place on the character sheet, but they're still just powers, and can be bought as such.

[Basic204]

How about when the energy infused his body. It not only changed his perception of space time and gave him powers but the spatial energy's that infused his bodies made it stronger. Would that help ?

[Tasha]

enemies were originally planed in the skilled and compoetent rank values thus 3-7 depending on importance.

 

And like I said I'm not picky why, but from what I got explained his bg states taht he is a normal human and ALL of his powers are part of a unified power (that is what I got explained yesterday) so a base ocv of 10+ for him doesn't feel right. If it comes frorm a power that gives a permanent boost and is part of the unified then that makes sense to me in terms of what the BG states how the character is and what his powers do. 

"Normal Human" has nothing to really do with superheroes. Batman typically is bought with a HUGE Dex and a HUGE Base OCV and DCV same as Green Arrow. Both are "Normal Humans". Getting stuck in those stupid boxes are what makes GM's screw up PC's and make their games miserable for people who choose such things as an Origin.

 

The PC WAS a normal Human, they are now infused with power that allows them to rip open spacetime and appear pretty much wherever they like. They can reach though rifts to pull others though as well. Who knows what other powers besides the stuff on the Powers page the character got with the powers. If you WERE the Gm and being this picky, I would take half of the OCV and DCV and put it on the power page. Perhaps with Unified Power, perhaps not. The character has ZERO Combat Skill levels. They just have the native quickness that comes from being a superhero.

 

BTW were you talking about 3-7 CV? or 3-7 Damage Classes? It helps mention what you are talking about.

 

BTW ARE YOU THE OP's GM? or are we talking theory here?

[bubba smith]

the character may consider himself to still be human in spite of having powers

[Tom2405]

Iam basics gm. And iam not picky there only trying to understand the reasonibg why it is bought as characteristics and not as power as his other stat increases are.

 

And as a bit of bg from my side i come from the gorror games storytelling side of rpg so not really used to supers games yet and still in the things have to be completely explainable by bg (especially skills and also combat capabilities) mode where special increments coming from powers are noted as such.

 

Thus the problem is more a getting used to supers and also clarifications problem there.

 

With how basic had defined his background i went down the usual route to find what approx combat caps i could glean from the bg and created the npc accordingly (thus 3-5 ocv/dcv for unimportant enemies and 3 higher for stronger ones).

 

As champions was mentioned we are not using that bg but a marvel film (avengers) / magic girl setting as i didnt have time to make myself familiar enough with the champs setting and from the few things i know the film setting is a bit more like what i like.

 

Also as an update iam currently discussing a few powers of his with michael as i dont find them very good maybe also there the prob mainly from where i come but lets see and talk here maybe its a wrong view from my part there (still too used to horror than supers games):

The blink teleport power (3 active points btw!!) which is a triggered when he takes damage and negates it by teleporting him up to 1 km away (on a successfull skillroll which is currently 14-)

From other systems i see that power gutwise as problematic as it uses a triggered teleport for something that is either damage negation+teleport or dcv increase + teleport when used. Additionally what i see problematic wis that things a character can do an enemy with similar powers (teleportation) can also do. And i dont find it funny for players to put 100endurance into a 200pts attack and blow up half the city and the enemy is unaffected because he managed a 16- skillroll.

So question is (i like the base idea of the power btw as it appears in many animes) do i overthink things there or am i right that the current build of the power is problematic?

(And before someone gets a wrong idea there i know how the power can be use and also what eaknesses it has now and how to counter it with quite an ease. But that is not the point the thing is that how it is built does not fit to its purpose gutfeeling wise so the queTion there )

 

 

Also like i mentuoned a few times already i come from another genre originally. And as basic made the thread iam using my posts about what i see as problems with his char or unfitting to get better used to the system and the genre through the responses)

[Diamond Spear]

As far as the Blink Teleport to negate damage, I personally would not allow such a power. Also I'd point out that the trigger for the power is taking the damage in the first place so simply teleporting away won't make it not have happened.

[Tasha]

The blink TP wouldn't prevent damage.

 

There's NO way in the system to add 100 points of endurance into a power that would destroy the world. Pushing is either capped at 10pts or by ego roll which is 15 points at max and usually is around 5-7 pts added to a power.

Please DL and use the version I posted. His OP character is unnecessarily complex. I cut a ton of powers that just didn't make sense.

[Tom2405]

Which version (from which post or can you repost?)?I got the last version i saw in this thread snd that was a version including blink,..

[Tasha]

Which version (from which post or can you repost?)?I got the last version i saw in this thread snd that was a version including blink,..

Here both HD and PDF versions of the character.

 

The triggered TP takes a full phase at half DCV to reset(or set). Also since there's no Set TP Locations purchased, it's a blind TP. Also, I would say that the PC takes the damage BEFORE the TP action takes place (or perhaps allow a "Dive for Cover" roll to see if they can do it before the damage lands).

 

The character IMHO is decent now, though some of the powers seem to be borne of "That looks like a good power to have, lets shoehorn it into my PC's special effect" instead of "My Special effect is Teleportation, what effects would fit that best"

 

Normally I would tell a beginning player to write up a simple character. Include a PC that is as interesting without the Superpowers as with (ie write up a stand alone normal PC and use that as the base for everything else). Make sure the powers include:

1. At least one non-gimmicked straight dice Blast (ie no Armor piercing, Autofire, area effect etc) After the PC has that one straight up Blast, then have no more than 4 other attacks (including Killing attacks).

 

2. One Movement power

 

3. Defenses (PD and ED, Con, Stun) that allow the PC to take 2-4 hits before being knocked Unconscious. With enough Recovery to erase at least one attack's landed stun

 

Keep the character simple! Make complicated characters later.

Manipulator.pdf

Spatial Manipulatior vr 4.hdc

[Basic204]

As far as the Blink Teleport to negate damage, I personally would not allow such a power. Also I'd point out that the trigger for the power is taking the damage in the first place so simply teleporting away won't make it not have happened.

The trigger for the the blink teleport was for if his shield got broken. I also even suggested how about trigger for if something is going to crush him. 

[Basic204]

Here both HD and PDF versions of the character.

 

The triggered TP takes a full phase at half DCV to reset(or set). Also since there's no Set TP Locations purchased, it's a blind TP. Also, I would say that the PC takes the damage BEFORE the TP action takes place (or perhaps allow a "Dive for Cover" roll to see if they can do it before the damage lands).

 

The character IMHO is decent now, though some of the powers seem to be borne of "That looks like a good power to have, lets shoehorn it into my PC's special effect" instead of "My Special effect is Teleportation, what effects would fit that best"

 

Normally I would tell a beginning player to write up a simple character. Include a PC that is as interesting without the Superpowers as with (ie write up a stand alone normal PC and use that as the base for everything else). Make sure the powers include:

1. At least one non-gimmicked straight dice Blast (ie no Armor piercing, Autofire, area effect etc) After the PC has that one straight up Blast, then have no more than 4 other attacks (including Killing attacks).

 

2. One Movement power

 

3. Defenses (PD and ED, Con, Stun) that allow the PC to take 2-4 hits before being knocked Unconscious. With enough Recovery to erase at least one attack's landed stun

 

Keep the character simple! Make complicated characters later.

This is the one I gave him he is talking about. 

 

Mostly to me he was talking about how to have higher attributes they have to be a power. 

[Tasha]

He's being Silly and picky. Characteristics are as much powers when they are on the Characteristics section as if you put them in the power section. IMHO there's saying "My Campaign runs on x Powerlevels, and I will list them here" and I disagree with the way the PC is build because of some picky thing that I misunderstand about the rules.

 

Theres a link at the end of my posts for a blog article I wrote about building characters. It also explains how the numbers work in Hero System. Everyone that you play with including you and Tom should give it a read. It looks long, but I think that it does a good job explaining things.

[Tom2405]

He's being Silly and picky. Characteristics are as much powers when they are on the Characteristics section as if you put them in the power section. IMHO there's saying "My Campaign runs on x Powerlevels, and I will list them here" and I disagree with the way the PC is build because of some picky thing that I misunderstand about the rules.

 

Theres a link at the end of my posts for a blog article I wrote about building characters. It also explains how the numbers work in Hero System. Everyone that you play with including you and Tom should give it a read. It looks long, but I think that it does a good job explaining things.

Maybe I am picky and silly, but then again there is something that needs a bit of clarification there though (maybe also many things are just miscommunications between basic and me, also like I said

I want to learn how to do hero games, which is the reason I posted in the thread):

I'm a perfectionist when it comes to characters and BG (blame my RL group on this who pushed me into that). When I get told a BG I look at characteristics and skills and look if it fits them (with  powers I'm more lenient there usually). With basics char I got told "mortal human, works in offices, got a few self defense classes". NEVER (aside from 3 days ago) was it  mentioned his characteristics came from his powers. Thus I went with the BG.  A few self defense classes and not even martial arts maneuvers (thus really ONLY self defense classes) didn't award the high OCV/DCV and that is what I said the whole time there it doesn't fit the BG (similar to his rec and body).

 

Then 3 days ago it was the first time I heard that his OCV/DCV came from his powers (body/rec weren't mentioned in the least there as being increased by his powers, so I still went with ok they are part

of his mortal human body and his bg doesn't award anything exceptionally high how it is described to me). As it was explained to me how the ODC/DCV is it sounded to me it worked EXACTLY like any other

active power and thus gets deactivated / inactive as soon as he is unable to use his spatial powers / the spatial powers getting drained. Thus it sounded to me it is another power that is unified with his

other powers and NOT a full characteristic increment as they share the same weakness with the other powers that they are unable to be used if the spatial power of his gets drained / supressed.

 

That is how the characteristic discussion went rolling. So my question here is twofold:

1.) Do these 2 characteristics make sense more as powers or more as characteristics? (a bit of explanation for the question itself is under 2)

2.) Am  I approaching super chars the wrong way? The way I use is what I'm used to from the other games: I look through characteristics and skills and merits and flaws and then look at the BG.

I note down all things that are not fitting the BG and then ask WHY. If no explanation is given I take they are coming from the mortal BG (in this case OCV/DCV, END, REC like I said ocv/dcv

the first time I heard from his powers was 3 days ago before that I heard no explanation aside from him having self defense classes). When I hear from his BG I look at the BG again and say

"ok fits or fits not". When I hear powers I look at the powers he has and if they fit the concept itself. Then I also ask HOW they come to be (the traits I noted before), thus are they part of his body now

or are they just extensions of the powers themselves. In this case I had heard "spatial awareness" thus to me it sounded they fall under the same rules and also disadvantages as the other powers:

If his spatial powers got deactivated for some reason (as all are unified) these increments ALSO get deactivated. IF the player instead says that his senses and reflexes are boosted by his new

understanding how things work THEN it sounds fitting to me that he gains an increase that has no restrictions to it in terms of how it could be deactivated,.. .

For custom made powers I always go down the route: What shall they symbolize and do they fit this. If not then is there ANY explanation for them, no explanation "not approved power",....

Also if they are rule breakers (here I'm especially watchful as all builds a character can  come up with for a power theoretically also an enemy could have)

 

Thus question here am I going here the wrong route?

 

--------------------------------------------------------

 

Blink teleport:

Here I would really like to know HOW it really works now, thus WHAT does it really now. When I first asked it was "I get damaged, and teleport out of the way so that no damage is there", then

"When my shield gets penetrated I teleport" thus also before taking damage from how I understood. Seeing Tashas build there is no more shield though (last version I got had a barrier that got used and was

the "shield" mentioned).  Basic? 

 

Hat Trick tear (never asked about this one before as I didn't go so far through the powers list with the other questions unsolved):

What would interest me here is what is it being used for and what creatures are summoned. Thus what shall it represent and what is the purpose. "I teleport random creatures here to wreak havoc".

 "I teleport this person I know here to me",.....

 

Spatial tangle

@Tasha: would it make sense if we increase this power a bit thus "no escape by teleportation" (as its a spatial tangle I could see it being quite hard to get out of it by teleportation abilities)?

 

Normal / Long distance teleport:

One thing with those two: DO they have to be two powers? When I first read those two I thought was 1 power:

Teleport -2m (megascale, requires roll (the 14- btw from how I understood the explanation are not 14- but skill rolls on Spatial Manipution Tricks: Power  or am I wrong there?), no relative velocity,

position shift, safe aquatic, 2x mass, unified power) with a power limitation 2/3  (all teleports to above 35m take 1 turn  and need concentration and loose the velocity, position shift and safe aquatic traits).

[Basic204]

Hat Trick tear I only wanted to pull items out. Also shield and barrier same thing. 

[Tom2405]

Pull items out you put there before (like an extradimensional pocket) or "pull specific items out form somewhere random (without putting them somewhere)" or "pull out items wheree I know where they are located at" ?

[Greywind]

Does it matter where the items originate from? Might be that they come from inside his mind and the application of the power to pull it out, creates the item.

[Tom2405]

It does in some sense as IF the items already exist and he just puts them into that (ah now I remember: subspace pocket is the typical name for that) then its no summon and thus not restrictd by 100pts summon,... then its an extra dimensional movement).

If the items on the other hand "just" exist its also a "teleportation" and not restricted by the POINTS of the item teleported to him,....

 

 

so in effect its different powers then depending on if he puts items somewhere and then takes them from there or if he "creates" items or if he uses preexisting items where he just happens to know where they are (and teleport them into his hands)

[Greywind]

Only if you over-think it. Make a VPP with defined limits of what can be pulled out of the Zeist pocket. I wouldn't use a summon for it.

[Diamond Spear]

Tom,

 

I think you are getting hung up on two things here. The first is an overly narrow interpretation of the terms characteristics and powers. Just don't worry so much about them. They are just labels for different game mechanics that make up the character. The second thing your too hung up on is the whole "coming from a normal background" thing. It's true that in the real world Basic's character would not have a high OCV/DCV but his character isn't in the real world he's in the fictional world of Champions and in THAT world when people gain powers they also gain increased physical characteristics and fighting skills. It's a genre convention. If you look at a lot of origin stories for comic characters they are much better fighters than thier backgrounds say they should be. Again it's a genre convention. If you're playing a game where a character can manipulate space and dimensions with nothing more than a thought is it so difficult to believe that the same event that gave him those powers also made him faster, more durable and so forth?

 

If nothing else forcing Basic's character to have "normal" stats will pretty much ensure that the player doesn't have much fun sinc he'll spend most combats missing with his attacks before being rapidly knocked out. When blancing "realism" with "fun and playable" ALWAYS err on the side of "fun and playable".

 

I hope the above helps and good luck.

[Diamond Spear]

It does in some sense as IF the items already exist and he just puts them into that (ah now I remember: subspace pocket is the typical name for that) then its no summon and thus not restrictd by 100pts summon,... then its an extra dimensional movement).

If the items on the other hand "just" exist its also a "teleportation" and not restricted by the POINTS of the item teleported to him,....

 

 

so in effect its different powers then depending on if he puts items somewhere and then takes them from there or if he "creates" items or if he uses preexisting items where he just happens to know where they are (and teleport them into his hands)

Unless there is a limit on what items he can pull out with that power, and by " limit' I mean a predefined list of specific items, than it really makes absolutely no difference in the game how you choose to describe the special effect.

 

As an example if I have a character with an energy blast defined as a blast of cold it makes no difference to the game if I say that my cold blast comes from me summoning icy air from the South Pole or from the Ice Dimension; mechanically the effect is the same. Getting too hung up on the details just makes for headaches and extends the time before you can tell great stories and blast Dr. Destruction with your cold-based energy blast.

[Tom2405]

Tom,

 

I think you are getting hung up on two things here. The first is an overly narrow interpretation of the terms characteristics and powers. Just don't worry so much about them. They are just labels for different game mechanics that make up the character. The second thing your too hung up on is the whole "coming from a normal background" thing. It's true that in the real world Basic's character would not have a high OCV/DCV but his character isn't in the real world he's in the fictional world of Champions and in THAT world when people gain powers they also gain increased physical characteristics and fighting skills. It's a genre convention. If you look at a lot of origin stories for comic characters they are much better fighters than thier backgrounds say they should be. Again it's a genre convention. If you're playing a game where a character can manipulate space and dimensions with nothing more than a thought is it so difficult to believe that the same event that gave him those powers also made him faster, more durable and so forth?

 

If nothing else forcing Basic's character to have "normal" stats will pretty much ensure that the player doesn't have much fun sinc he'll spend most combats missing with his attacks before being rapidly knocked out. When blancing "realism" with "fun and playable" ALWAYS err on the side of "fun and playable".

 

I hope the above helps and good luck.

So IF I udnerstand you correctly then the BG shouldnt limit characteristics,... in any kind and just serve to define MINIMUMvalues (thus that someone highly intelligent according to BG should have more than 10)? 

[Greywind]

The INT rating has nothing to do with how intelligent someone is. It has more to do with how fast they process information in their head.

[Tom2405]

it was just an example there.....could have also used ego or pre to state what I meant..........so?

 

Int; are you sure there? "intellect, memory, reasoning, perceptivenes, general "tinking power" does sound to also how intelligent a char is"

[Diamond Spear]

So IF I udnerstand you correctly then the BG shouldnt limit characteristics,... in any kind and just serve to define MINIMUMvalues (thus that someone highly intelligent according to BG should have more than 10)?

 

So IF I udnerstand you correctly then the BG shouldnt limit characteristics,... in any kind and just serve to define MINIMUMvalues (thus that someone highly intelligent according to BG should have more than 10)?

 

More or less. Again it's a genre convention that individuals with powers also have increased physical characteristics. Trying to make that make perfect sense with a particular background or trying to apply real world logic just gets in the way of the game. It kind of comes down to the fact that in a 400 point game characters NEED those increased characteristics to be playable. If you force Basic's character to have physical/combat scores consistent with his background than you're putting him in a situation where an average 250 point character could mop the floor with him without breaking much of a sweat.

 

Can I ask if you've set the average and maximum values for your game other than total points yet?

[Greywind]

it was just an example there.....could have also used ego or pre to state what I meant..........so?

 

Int; are you sure there? "intellect, memory, reasoning, perceptivenes, general "tinking power" does sound to also how intelligent a char is"

 

And a person with an INT of 10 can come up with the same theories/principles/discoveries as a person with an INT of 20. It will just take them longer to work it out.