Not sure about allowing this

[Tae Kwon Dan]

Hey guys, well my future group has picked up a much needed advantage, an experienced HERO player. Although he doesn't know much about FREd only having the BBB, I would say most of the foundation is there to really be helpful to our group. That being said I think he might be trying to play a trick on the old TKD (we're long time friends so it would only be in jest, I hope) in the terms of one of his powers.

 

He's making a Brick called Brutus who has the following ability:

 

Horizon Punch: Double Knockback on 60 STR.

 

AT first I thought it might be okay, but then I realized that any punch is going to deal Double Knockback and he already has a 60 STR so it's not like his Knockback is going to be little to begin with. So I ask you HEROphiles if you think this one is okay?

 

I am thinking of allowing it but adding a -1/4 Limitation of Requires Equivalent of Haymaker to perform or Double END. Would this still be too good?

[Agent Escafarc]

Do you have any AP or DC limits in your game?

[BobGreenwade]

Escafarc raises the one really strong point. The character's STR including the Advantage should not exceed the campaign's Active Point, Damage Class, or other limits.

[Tae Kwon Dan]

Good point, I haven't worked all of that out yet, but Double KB on 60 STR would most likely go over the numbers I've been thinking about.

 

I guess I didn't think of it as a part of his 60 STR, but I'll remember to do that in the future.

[Monolith]

An option for the character here might be to allow an increased distance knockback but without the extra damage associated with it. I would call this an Extended Knockback: +1/4 for each doubling. The extra knockback only adds to distance not to damage. The doubling is taken into account after the knockback is rolled. So if the character did 12 BODY, and then rolled a 7 for knockback he would normally get 5" of knockback, but with the Extended Knockback Advantage he goes back 10" but still only does 5d6 damage. That might be one way of simulating greater knockback distances. Just something to think about.

[TheEmerged]

Re: Not sure about allowing this

 

Originally posted by Tae Kwon Dan

I am thinking of allowing it but adding a -1/4 Limitation of Requires Equivalent of Haymaker to perform or Double END. Would this still be too good?

 

Actually, if I understand what you're saying this already exists as a -1/2 limitation -- Extra Time: Extra Segment -- from FREd pages 186-187.

 

As to the main question, I agree that the issue rests on whether or not you've set an active point limit or cap for the campaign. If so, as others have said you need to take that into account when looking at characteristic costs.

[BNakagawa]

Do the math. 12d6 punch, avg body x2 - 2d6 nets you an average of 17" of KB.

 

Line up your target on somebody or something that can take it and you're getting more than your money's worth. Brick Billiards.

 

It weighs in at 105 active points. If you're cool with that, then fine. If not, then break out the red pen of denial.

 

$0.02

[Farkling]

On the rest of the math;

 

17" KB will put a character into most buildings. Let's see, if normal exterior walls have 12 DEF it is equivalent to an extra 12d6 attack and some minor damage in addition. He got to hit him twice. He could do that with a sweep, couldn't he? The sweep wouldn't cause as much collateral damage to the environment (civil lawsuits, disliked by rescue workers, bad press)

 

If knocked down a clear street to tumble to a halt, you are looking at 17/2 = 8.5 d6 of damage...43 STR as an additional punch. Not so much.

 

Not as abusive as AP or Penetration on 60 STR I would think. But you're the GM.

 

On a side note, if his CV and levels stack up to near campaign limits ALSO, then break out the pen. "This goes, or that goes. pick one"

[CrosshairCollie]

Well ... hmm. On 60 STR, that might be a little insane. As stated above, that's an average of 17" knockback ... though finding anything capable of withstanding 17d6 is pretty difficult (and targetting a person at another person isn't easy). In many ways, the worst part would be that most opponents would have to spend as much as a full action hiking back to do anything!

 

I had a villain with double KNB Strength once ... not quite that level, but I realized very early on in the fight that scattering the heroes can really crimp teamwork.

 

If you've established hard'n'fast Active Point limits, then insist he's built to specs. If nothing else, you might try to talk him down to 1.5x Knockback for a +1/2 advantage (11" Knockback), which would still be impressive.

[JeffreyWKramer]

Yeah, it all comes down to what you set as the parameters for active points in the campaign. There's nothing wrong with Double Knockback - it's included in the book for a reason, in that it's a perfectly valid construct that helps mimic certain effects in the source material - but it is pretty tough. It pretty much assures most people hit by the attack suffere essentially the effects of a secondary attack, when they get slammed all over the place. It also serves to spread out the battle a lot, and to do a lot of collateral damage in the environment.

 

This last factor is one to consider playing on should you decide to allow the attack. This character is going to cause a lot of environmental damage. If your campaign style is one in which players have to face the effects of their actions, you can play this up by having lawsuits and insurance adjustors follow the character around after he knocks opponents through cars, buses and buildings.

 

 

I agree with Farkling though, that it's a lot less dangerous (i.e., deadly to others) than AP or Penetrating on STR. For that matter, it'd be more welcome to me, just because it is different.

[dugfromthearth]

some suggestions:

 

allow double knockback on some of the dice (say 20 str), which would add about +4" to the knockback but not so much.

 

add the extra time +1/2 phase limitation (this is probably the best) representing that he has to wind up to do it.

 

add the 1/2 dcv limitation to give it more of a "maneuver" feel.

 

with +1/2 phase and 1/2 dcv limitation he can do it, but it takes time and leaves him vulnerable.

[Blue]

I gave my players an 80pt active cost cap. Surprisingly, many limited themselves to closer to 60-70. The one guy with double-kb on a punch actually has 40 STR.

 

A 60 STR x2 KB is averaging 24" - 2D6 (average 7) = On the average 17" of knockback. He's guaranteed to do more damage from hitting objects (assuming the objects have at a combined BODY & PD of 17 or more) than he will do from the punch itself.

 

40 STR x2 KB is more like a net of 9". Mind you, there's a potential for much higher (say he rolled high damage and low KB dice... 11 BODY x 2 = 22, -4 = 18") but that's rare.

 

If you allow it, there are ways to work around the hero (which he'll hate). Such as making lots of ranged attacks, making the fights on open ground (so he only takes half-damage for hitting the ground, not objects), and when he goes flying back he can go so far away that it takes several moves for the brick to get to him, thus allowing attacks during that time.

 

An arch-enemy with a suit that absorbs impact specifically from knockback (call it something like Kinetic stabilization) is fun.

 

I'll take off my evil thinking cap now and put on the good one.

[Bartman]

I have a character with a 10d6 HtH attack with x2 knockback. It has proven to be less useful than his 14d6 HtH attack 1/2 end, his 4d6 AP HKA,his 12d6 EB, or his 12d6 1 Hex AoE HtH attack. While it would be too cheep at +1/2 I think double knockback is actually too expensive at +3/4. There are several reasons for this:

First there are very few places where you can afford to have guys go sailing around like that. Collateral damage can be a real damper on such things.

Second in a campaign where the damage averages 14-15 DCs a 10d6 attack followed up by a potential for another 13d6 is less useful than a straight up attack of equal value.

 

I think your idea of placing some limitations on the advantage are a good comprimise. It allows the guy to really let go once in a while, but will prevent the potentially abusive regular use of the ability. You may also want to look at requiring x2 End or something else to demonstrate the power required to let loose like that.

[Caveman]

Double Knockback is fun...

 

But a standard(at least I think so) is knocking someone straight up. Yes now that I think of it you get a loss of 2" for every 1" straight up. However, you would get that anyway without Double KB. Also ad the fact that you can do this without much damage to the surroundings can be rather nice. playing Pinball with characters can be dangerous.

[Tae Kwon Dan]

Based on everything said and the fact that we're going to rebuild the characters after 1 or 2 sessions to streamline, or redline, abilities I'm going to allow the "power", but require him to take Extra Time and Increased END on it.

 

If it's still too good after that, at least in comparison to other party members' abilities, then I'll redline it out and we'll move on.