CC power grouping question?

[Echo3Niner]

So, let's say I wanted to group a bunch of powers together.  For the sake of this question, I will use cyberware.  So, I have a villain who has a full AI computer inside his skull; it can do all kinds of amazing feats; but, it's all from one computer.  So, I want the IIF and Unified Power, because if something like say, an EMP effects the computer, it would affect all of it's powers.  So, I want to list "AI Computer in skull", with a bunch of powers under it, and then apply the IIF and Unified Power limitation to the set.  What is the best way (most correct) of doing that?

 

Now, what if it isn't this computer, but a Cyber Body, with a bunch of physical powers, and now I want OIF and Unified Power applied; still the same?

 

What if, it's SHAZAM!  So all the powers come from a tigger (shouting SHAZAM!), and all the powers are magically bestowed at that point; if they are all impacted negatively as a set (Unified Power), even though this isn't a focus, is it still the same?  (This is not to discuss SHAZAM's power, I am only using it for an example, for ease of discussion).

 

What if it's a comic book "alien" rifle, that can shoot three kinds of rays?  How best to group these, and apply limitations to them that apply to the entire weapon?  What if the rays have different limitations, but the rifle itself has a couple that are universal (across all it's powers)?

[steriaca]

A.I. Skull Computer: Both Unified Power and IIF are both legal, but ONLY if their is a way to remove the computer without harm to the user. Remember the Inassisably part means it takes at least one turn to remove it (or more). Considering that it is a computer, I would add Limited Power (Hackable: -1/4), which alowes hackers to turn the power on/off with a good enough skill and right equipment.

Cybernetic Body: I would go with Unified Power but not OIF unless their is no need for it to preform life support. Most cyborgs need that body to live, so taking it away will also take away the life support. On the other hand, if it is attack powers all in the right arm, then go ahead and use both on those attacks.

Original Captain Marvel Clone: Yep...Unified Power is legal, if it fits the concept.

Alien Rifle Questions: Read up on Multipower (page 122 of Champions Complete). Generally only Charges have a special rule on Multipowers.

[GhostDancer]

IMHO, most GMs would not allow an IIF for an implanted AI.  Trying to dig out an AI from someone's skull in just a Turn or so may be lethal, especially when designed access is hidden.  

 

Likewise, a lot of GMs would not allow OIF for cyber body.  Cyber body is simply the sfx for a physique.  It is not necessarily easier to dismember than my body, especially without access to specs.

 

In other words, barring some compelling clarifications and/or a very (too?) generous GM, the above examples match the SHAZAM build, in that Focus does not apply.  A SHAZAM-type build is generally sans Trigger, Only In Hero ID.

 

I'd go with Multipower for the Alien Rifle or the like, such as an M16 that is mounted with a grenade launcher.

 

All Limitations and Power Formats are simply discounts approved by the GM.  Some builds don't merit certain discounts from your GM.

 

[steriaca]

I agree with Ghost Dancer. Basically, it is up to the GM, but certain special effects rules out certain limitations.

[Scott Baker]

I also wouldn't allow the implanted computer as a focus. Unless the player can tell me how it is easily disabled/removed (for accessible foci this is in combat, for inaccessible foci, it would be out of combat).

 

@Echo3Niner - remember the basic rule...if a limitation doesn't limit, it isn't worth any points.

[Houston GM]

Now, what if it isn't this computer, but a Cyber Body, with a bunch of physical powers, and now I want OIF and Unified Power applied

 

If any munchkin tries to buy his entire body as an OIF, I will warn him that it is risky, and then I will let him do it.

 

The first time he gets knocked out in combat, I will have the opponents spend the turn separating his head from his body, either to capture his head or steal his body.

 

Evil Matermind: (to his minions) "If you see him trying to escape, don't stop him. Just pull out your phone and video it. I want to post a YouTube clip of him trying to escape by rolling himself down the hall using his tongue and his eyebrows."

[Echo3Niner]

If any munchkin tries to buy his entire body as an OIF, I will warn him that it is risky, and then I will let him do it.

 

The first time he gets knocked out in combat, I will have the opponents spend the turn separating his head from his body, either to capture his head or steal his body.

 

Evil Matermind: (to his minions) "If you see him trying to escape, don't stop him. Just pull out your phone and video it. I want to post a YouTube clip of him trying to escape by rolling himself down the hall using his tongue and his eyebrows."

 

Hahahaha.  As I said, this is a question about how to group powers, not how to cheat or be a munchkin.  These are just examples.

 

Don't want to write out a million parts to a cyborg body, if all the limitations and additions apply to all the parts and pieces; has to be a better way to group them together; that's the point of the question.

 

And, I'm the GM, so that's why I'm asking, to make my life easier and to help my players paperwork/character creation.

[Echo3Niner]

For clarification, I'm trying to understand how best to group powers, especially if they will all have the same additions and limitations applied to all of them.  Then, what if some of them have specific additions &/or limitations applied only to those powers?

 

The above are just examples, as a way to get to the question.

 

It seems to me that Compound Power works, but you have to apply the additions and limitations to EACH power independently.  Basically I want something like this:

 

Big Bunch of Powers

Every power in this bunch has the following additions and limitations applied:

Addition 1

Addition 2

Addition 3

Limitation 1

Limitation 2

Limitation 3

 

Power 6 has these additional additions and limitations:

Addition 4

Limitation 4

 

Power 9 has these additional additions and limitations:

Addition 5

Limitation 5

 

Powers:

1-10 listed out

 

So there you go.  Another example, would be Juggernaut's powers, since they all come from a magic gem; they could all have the same modifiers, but perhaps a couple have some additional modifiers.  Whatever the example, hopefully this helps clarify the question.

[Echo3Niner]

And I'm OK with the answer:

 

"Use X if you are going to have the same modifiers apply to ALL powers.  Use Compound Power if ANY of the powers have different modifiers."

 

Just want to make sure I'm doing it right in the rules, then try to figure out how to do it in HD.

 

Sorry, I'm a n00b to HD and just returning to Champions after like 20 years...

[Echo3Niner]

Big Bunch of Powers

Every power in this bunch has the following additions and limitations applied:

Addition 1

Addition 2

Addition 3

Limitation 1

Limitation 2

Limitation 3

 

Power 6 has these additional additions and limitations:

Addition 4

Limitation 4

 

Power 9 has these additional additions and limitations:

Addition 5

Limitation 5

 

Powers:

1-10 listed out

 

So, after reading the Multipower Power Framework (MPF), I'm guessing this is the way to do this properly.  All the slots would be fixed, at least in the examples I'm giving above, as I'm not looking for a pool that is flexible, just a way to apply modifiers to all the powers.

 

I guess my question about that is (assuming I'm right about MPF), without having to go through and build a bunch of powers individually, then build it as an MPF and compare, how do the points come out?

 

In the case of what I'm looking for, which is simply a way to group powers and make paperwork easier, I would expect the points should come out the same, but having no experience with MPF's, I have no idea if that makes sense or not?

[Scott Baker]

You can't confuse the build of the powers with entering them into Hero Designer ("grouping powers and making paperwork easier") (based on the 2 threads with the same question over in the HD forum). For ease of entry in HD, we've answered that question over in that forum.

 

For whether to use a power framework or not when building the character, it's about the concept you are trying to represent. When might you use a multi-power? A rifle/bow/whatever, with multiple ammunition types. They all share the focus limitation, but you can only use one ammunition type at a time The weapon is represented by the MP (and its pool). Each ammunition type is a fixed slot in the MP.

[Houston GM]

I guess my question about that is (assuming I'm right about MPF), without having to go through and build a bunch of powers individually, then build it as an MPF and compare, how do the points come out?

 

Provided that you're willing to accept the limitation of using one power at a time (or scaling back variable powers to use them simultaneously), it's a lot cheaper to buy the powers as a multipower, rather than individually. The only exception is when one power has a vastly larger total cost than any other power in the framework (at which point it may be cheaper to take that costly power out of the framework).

 

It's a very good way to add a lot of flexibility to a character for a reasonable point cost.

 

 

For whether to use a power framework or not when building the character, it's about the concept you are trying to represent. When might you use a multi-power? A rifle/bow/whatever, with multiple ammunition types. They all share the focus limitation, but you can only use one ammunition type at a time The weapon is represented by the MP (and its pool). Each ammunition type is a fixed slot in the MP.

 

There are a lot of concepts that can fit into a multipower.

 

10 pt. Movement Multipower (10 pts)

(var) +5" Running (2 pts)

(var) +5" Superleap (1 pt)

(fix) Clinging (1 pt)

(var) +5" Swimming (1 pt)

(var) 10" Swinging, OAF (-1) (1 pt)

(var) 10" Gliding, OIF (-1/2) (1 pt)

 

(all points are based on FREd, because that's the last version I memorized)

 

I've used multipowers to represent the spells a mage can cast, the weapons in a powered armor weapons suite, various types of attacks (with different advantages) made by a brick, a utility belt, etc. About the only limitation that I put on my players is that there has to be some kind of theme that ties the powers together.

 

And to give an example of efficiency, that 17 pt. group above would cost 42 pts. outside of the multipower.

[Echo3Niner]

OK, so in the case of the "alien rifle" the MPF makes sense.  But, in the case of a group of powers that all come from the same impetus and all have the same modifiers (but the powers are all individual in that they all work independently and theoretically could all be on at the same time), the MPF doesn't make sense.  So, from a rules perspective, what is the right way to group these powers and have the modifiers affect them all?

 

Basically I'm looking for a Compound Power, but where modifiers can apply to the entire set of powers.

 

So, if there is nothing in the game rules for this; as the GM should I make the "Unified Power Group" (UPG), which automatically has the Unified Power limitation, and is simply a group of powers, where modifiers applied to the group affect all the powers in the group, though each power could have any additional modifiers applied to them individually as well (as long as the group modifiers are not countered in any way), and the powers are simply totaled for the UPG?

 

I would only do this, if there is nothing already in the game to accomplish this.

[Hyper-Man]

2nd try...

 

Take a look at this example build which uses the List feature of Hero Designer, the Unified Limitation, the Multipower Framework as well as the Focus Limitation.

 

http://www.herocentral.net/get/files/premium/Princess+Diana+of+Themyscira+6e+400.HTML

[Echo3Niner]

2nd try...

 

Take a look at this example build which uses the List feature of Hero Designer, the Unified Limitation, the Multipower Framework as well as the Focus Limitation.

 

http://www.herocentral.net/get/files/premium/Princess+Diana+of+Themyscira+6e+400.HTML

 

I did, and thank you.  Helps from an HD perspective; but, in this thread I'm asking more from a rules perspective.  I think I get the MPF component; but I'm the only one with HD, and will mostly be using it for my villains/NPC's creation; so need to understand the right solution for this from a rules perspective for my players, who will be doing this via paper.

 

Once I understand that, I'll go back to the HD thread and figure out how to put it into HD the best way.  From a rules perspective, I want to be consistent with my players in the way we group powers.

[Hyper-Man]

Basically I'm looking for a Compound Power, but where modifiers can apply to the entire set of powers.

 

Compound Power only exists in the rules to explicitly allow combinations of different Powers within a single Framework (Multipower or Variable Power Pool) "slot".  If a Framework is not being used then just use a List to notate the "Common" Modifiers (Advantages and Limitations are both considered Modifiers).

[Hyper-Man]

I really think you are focusing too much on the "Tools" of the rules.  It's usually best to begin with a plain English description of what something does first.

 

If you can give us a specific example of something you are running into difficulties in building I'm sure we can provide multiple options on how to accomplish it within the rules and display it within Hero Designer.

[Echo3Niner]

There are a lot of concepts that can fit into a multipower.

 

10 pt. Movement Multipower (10 pts)

(var) +5" Running (2 pts)

(var) +5" Superleap (1 pt)

(fix) Clinging (1 pt)

(var) +5" Swimming (1 pt)

(var) 10" Swinging, OAF (-1) (1 pt)

(var) 10" Gliding, OIF (-1/2) (1 pt)

 

(all points are based on FREd, because that's the last version I memorized)

 

I've used multipowers to represent the spells a mage can cast, the weapons in a powered armor weapons suite, various types of attacks (with different advantages) made by a brick, a utility belt, etc. About the only limitation that I put on my players is that there has to be some kind of theme that ties the powers together.

 

And to give an example of efficiency, that 17 pt. group above would cost 42 pts. outside of the multipower.

 

So wait a minute; am I thinking about this wrong?

 

Based on what I read earlier, I was thinking about an MPF as a pool, from which I can "pull power from" to accomplish various feats.  But, what I am starting to take away from the above, could be the "right way" to express a group of powers that come from the same point, so can only be done one at a time, even though it's not a pool (in the classic sense of how I defined that earlier).

 

So, here's an example:

 

I build a brick, he has several attacks, which are all various ways to use his super strength to accomplish attacks.  He obviously wouldn't be doing a super punch and a sonic clap at the same time.  Even though it's not this "pool of power" (like Silver Surfer's Power Cosmic), it is a "pool" in essence, of his strength.  So, a group of various strength based attacks, makes sense to be in a MPF, as he's using "all his strength" in each power, one at a time?

[Echo3Niner]

I really think you are focusing too much on the "Tools" of the rules.  It's usually best to begin with a plain English description of what something does first.

 

If you can give us a specific example of something you are running into difficulties in building I'm sure we can provide multiple options on how to accomplish it within the rules and display it within Hero Designer.

 

OK, let's look at powered battle armor.

 

Let's say I'm building powered battle armor, and every power it contains will be OIF, Unified Power, and any armor or weapon based powers will have Real Armor/Real Weapon applied to them.  Perhaps the entire suit will also have Vulnerability to EMP (or something like that).  Individual powers may have additional modifiers.

 

The armor will add to the characteristics of the character wearing it, all of them listed in the armor, all the time.  (This seems to mean it cannot be a pool of any kind.)

 

Many of the Defensive and offensive powers would also be active all at the same time.  Those who are grouped into pools, and fire or work one at time, could be an MPF.

 

So, I don't want to list on the character sheet, all these various powers individually, with all the same modifiers.  So, is there a rules based way to group these, or not?

 

Am I going too far with trying to group powers here; is it as simple as listing "Powered Battle Armor; all powers from this armor include the following modifiers:" at the top, then listing all the powers below that, and only listing any additional modifiers that power has, or any MPF's as appropriate and then doing the math for all the powers?

[Hyper-Man]

Here is probably the most complex example I can provide:

http://www.herocentral.net/get/files/premium/Clark+Kent+6e+400.HTML

 

Note that it would not be too difficult to trade out the following:

Conditional Power - Not in the presence of Kryptonite or red solar radiation (-1/4)

for

Only in Heroic ID (Powered suit of Armor ) (-1/4)

then swap out a few power builds to make a passable if somewhat skills-lite Iron-Man clone.

[Echo3Niner]

Here is probably the most complex example I can provide:

http://www.herocentral.net/get/files/premium/Clark+Kent+6e+400.HTML

 

Note that it would not be too difficult to trade out the following:

Conditional Power - Not in the presence of Kryptonite or red solar radiation (-1/4)

for

Only in Heroic ID (Powered suit of Armor ) (-1/4)

then swap out a few power builds to make a passable if somewhat skills-lite Iron-Man clone.

 

Appreciate the example; but I'm really trying to understand if there is a proper rules way to group powers given my specific examples, so I can properly adjudicate with my players, and be consistent with my villains.

 

I may have gone too far with this; there may not need to be a "rule" per se', but this may simply be an easy way to list this on the character sheet.

[pinecone]

I think I'm following what you're saying...I really don't do 6th, so I am not 100% about it...but from a "style" point of view...

 

Powered Armor: OIF, yadda, yadda is totally cool with me

1) Armor +12 Def

2) Force field +8 Def, costs End, Not in IMF -1/4 

3) Flight 30m  Noisy -1/4

etc... As long as there is no source of confusion, it's all good. Personally I would not use "Unified" for Power Armor, as I think of it as a part of the Focus Lim. YMMV. (If you use OHID, then unified might make sense...)( and would be mathematicly identical)

 

If you toss in a "Weapons Platform" Multi power, with the above numerated lims, still all good!

[pinecone]

Following along with your examples: Cyberware: Disabled by EM, hacking etc: -1/4 (or write IIF -1/4, and consider the same lims to exist...)

+10 Str, one limb -1/4

Telescopic vision, +8 RM

IR vision

 

Etc, they all take the listed lims, I use an * to mark each one, and list the lims on a separate line, marked the same way...sort of like a "footnote".

 

Example: Costume, *OIF

*Armor + 6 Def

*UV Vision, cowl

*HRRH, flash as two -1/4

*Gliding (only, -1) Cape

etc...

 

Is that what your looking at?

[Echo3Niner]

Following along with your examples: Cyberware: Disabled by EM, hacking etc: -1/4 (or write IIF -1/4, and consider the same lims to exist...)

+10 Str, one limb -1/4

Telescopic vision, +8 RM

IR vision

 

Etc, they all take the listed lims, I use an * to mark each one, and list the lims on a separate line, marked the same way...sort of like a "footnote".

 

Example: Costume, *OIF

*Armor + 6 Def

*UV Vision, cowl

*HRRH, flash as two -1/4

*Gliding (only, -1) Cape

etc...

 

Is that what your looking at?

 

Yes, so I was thinking that like Compound Power, there was a rulesy way of doing this; but, I think I may have just gone off the deep end here, and not kept it simple.

 

I'm really trying to make the paperwork of building a character easy for my players and me, and don't want to write out each and every power if they all come from some common source and have a bunch of the same modifiers.

 

If a power has any ADDITIONAL modifiers, that can be listed with that specific power.

 

So, since I think I figured out here, with all these questions, (I was just coming to the conclusion as you spelled it out Pinecone) that I'm not looking for a specific rules based modifier in and of itself, I think it's all just in how it's listed on the character sheet.

 

This did help me a lot though, because not only do I understand that better, but I also understand Compound Power and Multipower Power Framework much better as well, so thank you to everyone for your help.

[Cantriped]

For a computer in your head to be affected by an EMP, I suggest using the -1/4 version of Restrainable (Only By An Electromagnetic Pulse; -1/4). Focus is inappropriate for any form of cybernetics unless you can rip out the battery and take it with you, or unsocket a USB slot or something like that. Unified Power is only applicable if using negative Adjustment Powers on one aspect of the computer brain affects other parts as well.

For example, a Computer Brain granting a series of 20 AP bonuses to EGO, INT, OCV, and some Enhanced Senses turns off all of the aforementioned powers if the character's Cybernetic EGO suffers 20 points worth of Drain.

 

In Hero Designer you can create a "List" and apply common modifiers to it. I do so all of the time, it is a simple and easy way to organize abilities without creating any strange mechanical assumptions. (It works like a power framework does in program, but isn't defined in the rules for CC). You can also place a Compound Power inside of a List to sheet space, like so:

 

Machine Powers: All Slots; Restrainable (By an EMP; -1/4), Unified Power (-1/4)

1)   Follower (Computer built on X points, controls all Machine Powers). Cost: ?? points (equal to APs / 1.5)

2)   +10 INT (10 APs), plus +10 EGO (10 APs), plus Lightning Reflexes (+10 Dex with All Actions) (10 APs). Cost: 21 points.

3)   Mental Blast 6d6 (60 APs) Only Works Against Machine Class Minds (-1/4). Cost: 34 points.

 

HERO Designer will automatically handle the cost calculations of adding the common limitations to each part of the Compound Power in slot 2. I often use this trick when writing equipment, like armor, which may only contain 1 compound power; but with half a dozen elements that all require half a dozen common limitations; such as Extra Time to Equip, Gestures to Equip (Both Hands, Throughout), OIF, Real Armor, Limited Coverage, etc...

 

A Multipower is very versatile, and can be used as either a "Pool of power/energy to be drawn from simultaneously" or as a "single power with two or more different applications"... Please note that in Champions Complete, every element of a Compound Power to be used as a Multipower/VPP Slot must be Linked or Unified Powers, and the sum of the APs of the components of the Compound Power is used to determine Active Point Limits for the purposes of a Framework (a 60 point multipower cannot contain a compound "12d6 Blast [vs. Energy Defense] plus 6d6 Drain Energy Defense", but could contain a Compound "6d6 Blast plus a 3d6 Drain").

The "typical" 400-point champions character archetypes listed in Champions 6th are built with a single movement power, a single defense power, and a multipower with 3-5 Attack & Utility Powers. If they all suffered a similar set of limitations, the Movement and Defense Powers could go into a list to save sheet-space.