Do you have a problem with telepathic pcs?

[astralfrontier]

Another simple solution is to treat mental powers as just another attack form, with regards to how you are expected to balance the game - characters need an ECV in the 7-13 range and 10-20 points of overall Mental Defense on average for a Standard Superhero campaign. Minor characters will obviously not have these ratings.

[Kristopher]

Originally posted by memesis

Another simple solution is to treat mental powers as just another attack form, with regards to how you are expected to balance the game - characters need an ECV in the 7-13 range and 10-20 points of overall Mental Defense on average for a Standard Superhero campaign. Minor characters will obviously not have these ratings.

 

It has been my experience in several campaigns that the splits for poor/average/good ECV are lower than the splits for OCV/DCV. The same goes for EGO vs DEX.

[AnotherSkip]

Ya fergot RKA/KA.

 

definately in the "superpowers" section but dammed if every beat cop doesnt have one!!!!!!

 

 

I got a GUN it's a SUPERPOWER!

[Victim]

Originally posted by Galadorn

 

I don't want to get too arithmetic here, but I think ego defense is more cost effective. Ego defense both reduces the effect of mind powers, thus making it easier to break out of in the long run. Of course the skill levels with Ego rolls would help with all non-ego attack powers, but it would still leave the agent wide open to ego attacks. I'm not just looking for a solution to telepathy, but being economic as well.

 

Any other solutions? We have:

• 1. Ego defense (I think the worst solution)
  2. Ego skill levels
  3. Ignorance
  4. Misinformation.

 

What other solutions can people come up with? I can think of a character having a multiform that is another total personality, which retains only the knowledge and experience it had while activated (Special Effect). But I'm trying to find more down to earth solutions, i.e. doesn't cost much or anything at all. [/b]

 

Hmm. Without much playing experience, I was thinking that Ego levels would generally be more effective at shutting out mental powers, with the exception of Ego Attack. Every 2 points of Ego levels is worth 5 points of effect roll or about 1.5 dice of effect. On the other hand, every 5 points of mental defense is worth 5 points effect. With both a low amount of point investment (1-10) and huge point investment MD might be better.In the first case, characters essentially get 2 points for free from Ego which can help, and in the second, break out roll will still fail on an 18, while not much will get through 50 MD, Hardened.

------------------------------------

 

Indirect Methods: Not having any people actually present means mind powers aren't so good. There's no one to capture and mind read if a criminal uses drones or RPVs to commit crimes. Anonymous communication systems would be more related to an Ignorance based plan, but are still valid. Using some form of coercion on civilians also keeps your hands clean enough to prevent easy detection by mental powers.

 

Suspect Overload: Say we have a nice list of suspects for the crime. The husband, lover, butler, etc. It's no great feat to mind read these people and look to see if they did it. Most of the time, this approach will quickly turn up the killer. But if some random junky killed the person? What if some serial killer did it because the saw the person walking down the street? In a big city, you can't just mind read everybody. A conventional investigation would be required to develop a case far enough for mental powers to be useful. They'd save the group some time since the usual suspects could be cleared, but wouldn't be all that great.

[tesuji]

[/b]

 

Originally posted by Galadorn

I don't want to quibble over semantics,

[/b]

Really?

 

Anyway, IMO, the game is centered around the PCs and their abilities. if one of their abilities is telepathy, you are in a telepathically centered game and your designs should be taking that into account.

 

Again, the same thing applies with their other abilities, particularly the powerful ones. Flight is big.

 

The degree to which you ignore these abilities in your designs is the degree to which you invite, no lets be clear, CREATE problems for you and them.

 

its not that difficult.

[tesuji]

Originally posted by Rene

To the simulationist though, "realism" is a more pressing concern. And there is no realistic reason for the rest of the world to be crafted taking the PCs's traits into account.

 

You got a lot less headaches when you take the storytelling view.

 

The beauty is, from the storyteller view, "the rest of the world" is not being tailored to the PCs abilities.

 

The rest of the world, the scenes we dont show in our story, may well be non-dramatic mismatches galore. We don;t show the boring bits, only the interesting ones.

 

The fact that batman;s villains are kinda fitting to his dramatic stories does not mean superman's dont exist. it just means the one's we are talking about during this series are those "kinda fitting".

[Kristopher]

Someone mentioned balance.

 

I think it's possible to have stories that center on the main characters (the PCs) without the main characters being the center of the universe. It's possible to take the abilities of the PCs and the interests of the players into account while still creating a world that has verisimilitude, depth, and a life of its own.

 

The flip side of this issue is the creation of the player characters. Just as the setting has to take the PCs into account, the PCs should be built with their world in mind. This, however, requires an attentive GM and cooperative players, both of which are sometimes in short supply.

[Kristopher]

Originally posted by tesuji

The beauty is, from the storyteller view, "the rest of the world" is not being tailored to the PCs abilities.

 

The rest of the world, the scenes we dont show in our story, may well be non-dramatic mismatches galore. We don;t show the boring bits, only the interesting ones.

 

The fact that batman;s villains are kinda fitting to his dramatic stories does not mean superman's dont exist. it just means the one's we are talking about during this series are those "kinda fitting".

 

The problem is that sometimes one of them will be in the part of the world "built around" the other. Superman, as usually depicted, should splatter 90% of Batman's foes like a Kenworth doing 80mph through a flock of pidgeons. Many of Superman's foes should, as usually depicted, do the same to Batman. Is this what happens in DC comics? Nope.

[Galadorn]

Originally posted by tesuji

Really?

 

Anyway, IMO, the game is centered around the PCs and their abilities. if one of their abilities is telepathy, you are in a telepathically centered game and your designs should be taking that into account.

 

Since you refuse to use the english language properly, go on ignore. I have no time for illiterates, or people who want to argue with me.

[Galadorn]

Originally posted by Kristopher

The problem is that sometimes one of them will be in the part of the world "built around" the other. Superman, as usually depicted, should splatter 90% of Batman's foes like a Kenworth doing 80mph through a flock of pidgeons.

 

LOL. Aweeeeeeeeeeeesome textbite.

 

Many of Superman's foes should, as usually depicted, do the same to Batman. Is this what happens in DC comics? Nope.

 

True, so true. And they had to have Dark Knight, to put Batman on an even keel with Superman. LOL

 

On the upside, I wanted to say that I use to watch Hercules the Legendary Journeys on T.V. And I was tired of the inconsistent application they had for hercules strength. So I wrote them an email; and in both Hercules the Legendary Journeys and Young Hercules, they really adjusted the way hercules took out villians. In one episode of Young Hercules they even addressed the point, with a responsibility show theme on Young Hercules's strength.

 

We should get Marvel to play Champions and write up all their characters in Champions, and try to have a more consistent application of powers. Let's see...Spiderman has a 40 dex and Quicksilver has a 44, Quicksilver goes first. LOL

[Galadorn]

Originally posted by Kristopher

Someone mentioned balance.

 

I think it's possible to have stories that center on the main characters (the PCs) without the main characters being the center of the universe. It's possible to take the abilities of the PCs and the interests of the players into account while still creating a world that has verisimilitude, depth, and a life of its own.

 

My point exactly.

 

The flip side of this issue is the creation of the player characters. Just as the setting has to take the PCs into account, the PCs should be built with their world in mind. This, however, requires an attentive GM and cooperative players, both of which are sometimes in short supply.

 

I agree completely.

[Galadorn]

Originally posted by memesis

Another simple solution is to treat mental powers as just another attack form, with regards to how you are expected to balance the game - characters need an ECV in the 7-13 range and 10-20 points of overall Mental Defense on average for a Standard Superhero campaign. Minor characters will obviously not have these ratings.

 

I missed this point before, though this seems a little tailored to me. I'll think about it. Thanks.

 

Obviously, many of us do have a problem with Telepathy. The question is what strategies will help us counter the obvious all or nothing information drain telepathy will have on characters. We have some ideas, I was wondering who was going to write the article in Digital Hero? LOL

[astralfrontier]

I'll write something based on this.

 

Expect to find a URL posted here.

[astralfrontier]

http://www.memesis.org/m/memesis.php?id=256

 

Opinions welcome. This is a fairly general article; I could also write up a specific discussion of advantages and limitations and how they affect mentalism, if there is interest.

[assault]

Originally posted by Kristopher

The problem is that sometimes one of them will be in the part of the world "built around" the other. Superman, as usually depicted, should splatter 90% of Batman's foes like a Kenworth doing 80mph through a flock of pidgeons. Many of Superman's foes should, as usually depicted, do the same to Batman. Is this what happens in DC comics? Nope.

 

Why would Lex Luther be able to easily beat Batman? Why would Superman be able to handle the Joker easier than Lex Luther?

 

I won't bother to point out that Superman's original super nemesis was the Ultra-Humanite: an old bald scientist with glasses (and later a young female actress!)

 

OK, Superman runs into more guys with high-tech gear. Batman would have to think about how to handle them a little. But he would still take them down.

 

Alan

[Kristopher]

Originally posted by assault

Why would Lex Luther be able to easily beat Batman? Why would Superman be able to handle the Joker easier than Lex Luther?

 

I won't bother to point out that Superman's original super nemesis was the Ultra-Humanite: an old bald scientist with glasses (and later a young female actress!)

 

OK, Superman runs into more guys with high-tech gear. Batman would have to think about how to handle them a little. But he would still take them down.

 

Alan

 

Batman vs Doomsday?

Superman vs Killer Croc?

 

Enough said.

 

Batman has been blown all out of proportion by having him hang with and keep up with characters he has no business with.

[assault]

Originally posted by Kristopher

Batman vs Doomsday?

Superman vs Killer Croc?

 

Enough said.

 

Batman has been blown all out of proportion by having him hang with and keep up with characters he has no business with.

 

The characters you listed are the meathead minority.

 

Most of Superman's opponents have always tended to try to outthink him rather than outfight him.

 

Lex Luther is a long time recurring character in Superman. Doomsday was a gimmick character that appeared from nowhere in a specific plotline and was never seen again.

 

Killer Croc would be no match for Superman - but Ra's Al Ghul is a whole other kettle of fish.

 

In fact, one of the reasons I have a problem with Telepathy is that it breaks down the separation between "muscle-oriented" supers and "mind-oriented" normals. N-Ray is another problem like this. Fortunately Superman didn't have it when he began his career and was the kind of character you can actually generate and play in Champions.

 

Alan

[tesuji]

Originally posted by Galadorn

Since you refuse to use the english language properly, go on ignore. I have no time for illiterates, or people who want to argue with me.

 

When in doubt, turn to insults... wonderful form.

[assault]

Originally posted by assault

Most of Superman's opponents have always tended to try to outthink him rather than outfight him.

 

OK, now I've thought about it a bit more, this is a bit of an overstatement. It's true in many cases, but I'm not so sure about "most".

 

What is true, however, is that a very significant proportion of Batman's rogues gallery are thinkers, rather than toe to toe fighters. Superman would have no particular advantage against them compared to Batman.

 

And there are plenty of similar characters in Superman's rogues gallery too. Yes, Superman does take on opponents that are out of Batman's league, but Batman takes on other opponents that Superman would have lots of trouble with too.

 

Incidentally, Batman could probably take out most of the Flash's rogues gallery fairly easily... Captain Cold? The Top? Mirror Master? On the other hand, he would be in deep trouble against Abra Kadabra, Gorilla Grodd or Professor Zoom. For a good time, though, try Batman versus Vandal Savage...

 

Alan

[ZootSoot]

Hmmn, I don't have a problem designing games where telepathy and other mental powers are useful but not gamewreckers. But, the fun thing to do with the mentalists (for me as a GM) is to provide situations that tempt them to do unethical things . . . and every player cracks and does them. This can be sort of fun, but it does get frustrating for the other players, can even ruin their fun entirely. In general, most mental powers just aren't very, um, heroic. I mind f

[drrushing]

telepathic pc's

 

I agree with Maccabe's post. A telepathic pc can be very useful, and very dangerous. The act of scanning another's mind is a CRIME, if they are an unwilling or unknowing target of the scan.

 

Also, the information gained is subjective, based upon the perceptions of the mind scanned. This can be a VERY useful plot device if your pc is being a real shmuck about his power usage.

 

Finally, if you or your players really want a telepathic pc, the more experienced or responsible player should probably tackle this character. This could possibly prevent intersquad squabbles and the like.

[Mr. Negative]

One final thing I'd like to weigh in on here, which I normally harp about in regards to Variable Power Pools, is that the mere existence of a power doesn't dictate how that power is allowed to be used in your game.

 

To be specific to Telepathy, allowing Telepathy to be chosen as a power doesn't mean that you have to allow 12d6 Telepathy, usable as a half Phase attack action. Envision how you see telepathy being used in your games, and let the PCs know that.

 

Maybe minds simply CAN'T be read in a phase or two. Maybe reading someone's mind required time, concentration, and focus. If the PC knows that Telepathy requires Extra Time (Full Turn) and Concentration, not only as part of their conception, but as the "game world" conception of Telepathy, then they can make a fair choice. Perhaps Telepathy is "touch-only" like Jean Grey in "X-Men". Perhaps time, concentration, and touch are required for all but the most skilled Telepaths (who would then perhaps be required to have spent not only a lot of points on Telepathy, but points on being a well-rounded mentalist (Mental Defense, KS, other mental powers, perhaps a VPP of mental powers, etc).

 

I think that the "problem" with Telepathy and a lot of powers arises when the PCs want to have a power that the villains have (which is usually quite a reasonable idea). That 1/2 phase Telepathy didn't seem too problematic when your mentalist villain unleashed it, but now, when it is in the control of a player who isn't bound by the storyline, it's ugly.

 

Avoiding this problem requires a good bit of foresight. As a general rule, I don't like to bar any PC from having abilities that a NPC could possess. However, it's fair (to me) if the PC can't afford those abilities (as he can save up for them), or if he isn't willing to make the tradeoff those abilities require (anyone can cast black magic, if they're willing to sell their soul...).

 

However, many players will dislike being banned from taking abilities just because they are problematic, especially if those abilites are used against them. As a GM, I feel "fair" only in banning powers only in three circumstances:

 

The ability simply doesn't exist in this game universe.

 

The ability exists, but not in the manner in which the player wishes to use it.

 

The ability is written up in a way that makes it time-consuming or confusing to use in play (here's where most VPPs get the axe).

 

Just my two cents.