Do you have a problem with telepathic pcs?

[Kevin]

We've been talking about telepaths in another thread, and I was wondering who does and does not allow telepaths in their game?

 

Have you had problems with players abusing the game you were running, or messing with OTHER player's characters?

[Tae Kwon Dan]

I'm new to this, but it already sounds like that the potential "problems" lie within the player and not telepathy.

 

I mean each character can use his EB on another character if he wanted so I don't see the difference in the restraint required there and with Telepathy.

[phydaux]

Much like Magic Users in my other RPGs, I prefer for experienced players to run mentalists in my campaigns.

 

The only ever had a problem with mentalist PCs was one time. It was a sci-fi game, I was a player, the GM was a new GM and the guy playing the mentalist was a git.

 

But we all KNEW the player was a git, so I concider it the GM's fault.

[Kevin]

OK. I have played with a guy whose character was not technically a telepath, but took mind control as a power.

 

Our GM allowed it.

 

He tried to get his opponents to commit suicide.

 

Never could grasp

A) the ethical issues and

this was kind of drastic and

C) he was never gonna get a +30 roll

 

But he was just stupid.

 

Does anybody have serious issues with a smart player running a straight telepath?

[Vondy]

This is largely an issue of playstyle. If you let them walk around tapping everyone for info and then proceed to tell them pertinant information - then you've made it too easy, and you've allowed mechanics to dominate story.

 

I would break it down into two separate pieces:

 

The role playing piece:

 

You don't just roll dice and say "what does he know?" or "does he know X?"

 

It should be described, and in general, it shouldn't be absolute. Telepaths may get varying clarity based on their margin of success, their coherence of their target, or the quality of the information.

 

Also, don't forget, the telepath can only establish that the target believes the information is true, not that it is true. And not every target will have all the pieces. The low level goon may only know enough to give the pcs an idea of where to look for the next biggest fish in the chain. Another factor is what level the information is stored at.

 

A trained person may hide the most important information, or even have an idea of how to cover it with false information, to throw the pc's off. You might also consider having potential negative side effects such as:

 

a) The hot female telepath is required to endure the chauvanists pornographic fantasies about her (surface thoughts) and wade through the imagery it creates to get to the information she wants...

 

The telepath finds himself in the mind of the serial killer... being hunted (a fun side scenario) by the killers mental self image.

 

These issues shouldn't always crop up, but they should come up occasionally. It gives the power flavor, and the character a moment's pause.

 

Mechanically - I think the system works, although its a bit vague. You need to define in advance who knows what, what the margins of success are like, and how to describe what the player experiences.

[Blue]

I haven't, and that's surprising. My players love nothing more than to screw with one another (in a generally good-natured RP way).

 

One guy is a telepathic alien, but due to his own code refuses to invade the minds of humans without permission.

 

Another guy took his telepathy as uncontrollable. He wanted to get flashes of other people's thoughts at the whim of the GM. It turned out to be too big of a pain the GM's rear because I never remembered to come up with something in advance. So we're reworking the power.

 

I have a bigger problem with people with the ability to foretell the future. Fortunately I can hedge those bets lately because of the temporal disturbances in my universe happening right now.

[Kevin]

Yes!

 

I would love to play in a game that was run that way!

Telepaths are not all powerful.

They should not be able to say "I am in his head, what does he know"?

Role-playing is key!

Along with specific answers the telepath is searching for, unexpected thoughts and feelings in the target should all come into play.

Maybe along with breakout roles for the target, the telepath should have to roll to not be overwhelemd by the thoughts and feelings of the mind they are reading.

Especially if they stay in that mind for awhile.

 

So, how have other GMs dealt with this?

[TheEmerged]

I used to allow it. Now I "don't".

 

I've come to the conclusion that it's not a good idea for the PC's to have "mystery circumvention" powers -- or at the least, to allow them without heavy limitations. This goes for things like X-Ray vision (which I still allow but watch closely), telepathy, universal Mind Control (I still allow one-command Mind Controls, or cases where it's really another power but I'm using MC to handle it in game terms), and the ultimate mystery circumention power psychometry (especially "past viewing").

[Mutant for Hire]

Read the Lensmen books. That's the series which incidentally was the inspiration for Green Lanterns, except that the Lens gave only one power (to most people anyway), telepathy. And as the Lensmen found out, always being able to read minds wasn't always the cure-all you expected it to be.

 

First off, the simplest way to keep information from a telepath is to keep anyone who knows that information away from the telepath. Operate on a "need to know" basis. Most intel agencies would not be overly fazed by telepaths since they've had to deal with drugs and torture for the extraction of information from their agents for years.

 

Second off, the existance of a weapon in general forces the invention of a defense against that weapon. Telepaths start cropping up, people are going to start building artificial mind shields. Those who have need of mental shields are going to invest in them. Anyone else is treated like a mushroom.

[Blue]

Misinformation is good too.

 

Let's say that the local viper folks want to lure the heroes into a trap or away from the real action. The nest leader tells the agents about a great victory they will win in a specific place at a specific time. When the heroes encounter and probe the minds of the viper agents, they find out about this. But the nest leader has planted misinformation in the minds of these minor guys. The heroes are in the wrong place!

[Maccabe]

Can you read my mind...

 

Actually there are several ways to handle Telepathy etc.

 

I once ran a campaign in which use of mental powers to get information from a suspect was illegal.

(Search and seizure)

 

Also the subconscious works in mysterious ways;

Any number of things can just pop up;

Haven't you at some point just have a random insight

or idea just pop-up? (out of no where)

[Kristopher]

I think I've had bad experiences, but the players I've seen take telepathic powers in various games have often been the kind who want to dominate the game, or be the center of attention, or something along those lines. They get frustrated when their powers don't immediately give them what they want. I'm sure that's not always the case, but still.

 

Anyway, something I like to do with telepathic powers when I'm running is to put the TP in the mind of the target for a little "through-the-looking-glass" experience. Unfortunately, HERO is such a mechanics-heavy system that I've been told I would have to specifically give a power to a character to represent a particularly tricky or dangerous mindscape. It's not always a system that encourages GM fiat.

 

An example: the NPC anti-hero whose powers were largely brought on by her death and return. She's seen the other side. She's got all this stuff from dying, being in the land of the dead, and coming back, all that trauma, in her head. Is that really where you want to go poking around for information?

[Houston GM]

No problesm with telepathy.

 

As I said in the other thread, if I have a telepath, I simply plan accordingly.

 

1) Telepathy is invasion of pricacy and illegal search and seizure. You might know the villain is guilty, but it doesn't mean much until you can prove it.

 

2) The first people you run across are the low level agents. "Need to know" is in effect.

 

They do know something. You give them information to propel the plot forward, but not enough to wreck the plot.

 

3) People don't trust telepaths. Unless you can get someone's permission, you have to make sure you don't get caught. (This adds +20 to your target numbers.) It also means you have to be careful about Mental Awareness.

 

4) Minds contain a lot of information, kind of like the internet. And just like the internet, you have to go searching for specific information. If you're not asking the right questions, you won't get the right answers.

 

5) Minds also contain misinformation (also like the internet). You find out what they know or believe ... not necessarily the truth.

 

6) Some people's minds contain unpleasant surprises. After hitting one or two of these, a mentalist is bound to become very cautious.

 

-------------------------------------

 

There's only one thing needed to prevent players from abusing telepathy against other players: Mental Awareness. If one other player has Mental Awareness, and they catch the mentalist abusing their powers, you can be certain the group will handle the situation.

[Stone]

While I do not outright prevent a PC from having telepathy, I am very cautious about it. I have had 2 telepaths in one group who's first action was read everyone's mind in a room. The competition between the two became troublesome. Currently, no one in my group is playing a telepath, but I know I will soon get one. I use the need to know method to keep the telepaths from immediately solving every puzzle. As far using artifical mental defense equipment, only when the villian agents or villians have a reason to have it (they are aware of the PC telepath and have had time to prepare).

[phydaux]

Originally posted by Kristopher

I think I've had bad experiences, but the players I've seen take telepathic powers in various games have often been the kind who want to dominate the game, or be the center of attention, or something along those lines.

 

That was the experience I had. I took the GM aside and went over with him what might happen and how to avoid it, but he didn't listen. The campaign fell apart because the telepath treated the other players like his NPCs and their was nothing we could do about it.

 

But it was the GM's fault. We all knew that player was a git. The GM LET him run roughshod over his campaign. If he had enforced the limits I had recommended it would have been ok.

[lemming]

I used to have a pysche lim versus Mental characters. (Had a couple bad experiences)

After that, whenever someone played a mentalist, something bad would happen to them. Often it would be a bad series of rolls, but under suspicious circumstances.

So on my house rules for my campaign, I do put a disclaimer.

[Galadorn]

Originally posted by Kevin

OK. I have played with a guy whose character was not technically a telepath, but took mind control as a power.

 

Our GM allowed it.

 

He tried to get his opponents to commit suicide.

 

Never could grasp

A) the ethical issues and

this was kind of drastic and

C) he was never gonna get a +30 roll

 

But he was just stupid.

 

I won't say what a player with mind control tried to make a character do in my campaign, but it was a pretty perverted, public act. Needless to say, he didn't have a character with mind control in my game any longer.

[Galadorn]

Originally posted by D-Man

This is largely an issue of playstyle. If you let them walk around tapping everyone for info and then proceed to tell them pertinant information - then you've made it too easy, and you've allowed mechanics to dominate story.

 

D&D 3rd Edition has a section in designing scenarios in which the player solves a crime with the commune spell. Their recommendations are to let it happen - and work around the players knowing that fact. Then, switch the emphasis of the game to making the characters prove the criminal was a criminal. The commune spell is not admitted as evidence in a court of law, in their view.

[assault]

Originally posted by Galadorn

D&D 3rd Edition has a section in designing scenarios in which the player solves a crime with the commune spell. Their recommendations are to let it happen - and work around the players knowing that fact. Then, switch the emphasis of the game to making the characters prove the criminal was a criminal. The commune spell is not admitted as evidence in a court of law, in their view. [/b]

 

This kind of approach would work better in Champions than in D&D, IMHO. The whole "proof" deal is a lot more rigorous in modern legal systems than in the kind that operate in most fantasy worlds.

 

As far as mystery busting powers in general: I've had trouble with N-Ray vision, but, unfortunately, one of my favourite character designs has N-Ray vision! I guess that if I'm playing a character with it, I just have to make sure it's not a problem...

 

Shrinking, Invisibility and so on can be a worry too. On the other hand, they're really just special cases of bugging...

 

I've recently put a shrinking character on my list of "characters to possibly play". He's not powerful, but he's sneaky. He could be a very serious mystery buster, but then, he's _supposed_ to be a top line detective.

 

Alan

[Solomon]

Most players with a modicum of gaming experience often shy away from mistery-circumvention powers. They just know they would be missing on a lot of fun.

 

I had problems, though, with younger or inexperienced players. I often had to disallow telepathy, psichometry and most forms of invisibility.

 

The group I'm currently GMing includes a mid-power telepath, and he's showing little or no restraint in using his powers, often at the expense of overall gaming fun. Either he wises up, or he's going to have a radiation accident sooner or later!

[BoloOfEarth]

I used to have a bit of a problem with running games with telepathic player characters, but it lay more with my view than with the players' actions.

 

My current campaign has a player character (Mosquito) who has Shrinking and a limited Telepathy (whispering in a sleeping person's ear to get them to answer questions in their sleep). It's kinda fun to act out the person being questioned, what with the snoring, dream-related sidetracks, wierd comments, etc. that I make along the way.

 

The past campaign had a PC mentalist (Lethean) who was incredibly powerful, but the player used enough restraint that he wasn't a campaign killer. In fact, his backstory and Hunted created a major plot thread, and his habit of turning captured agents into his "followers" made for an interesting set of Contacts.

 

It really depends on the player involved. After 13 years or so with all but one of my players, and 9 or so years with the last player, we've gotten to know each other's playing styles pretty well. My players are pretty cool (and forgiving when I get flaky). However, I've played with people who I wouldn't trust with Mental Awareness, let alone mental powers.

 

I would seriously question some things, such as high-end Cumulative on mental powers, since some powers (like Telepathy or Mind Scan) are frequently used out of combat. For 60 points, a small 5d6 Telepathy with Cumulative (4x Max) would eventually get +30 effect on anybody with less than 15-20 points of Mental Defense. A final result of 120 pretty much gives you anything you want, game mechanic wise. Then again, the roleplaying (and potential misdirection) can temper this, but still I'd question allowing it.

[tesuji]

IMO it boils down to making the story and adventure and challenges fit the stars, the characters. The abilities they have will alter the nature of the drama you throw at them.

 

A good telepath will tend to make the "room of suspects" murder mystery whodunnit either not have much drama or definitely need additional spins... much in the same way a good flier will make the rickety-rope-bridge crossing over a deadly fall pretty much not as useful for drama.

 

So, the challenges wont focus as much on WHODUNNIT mysteries, but that still leaves tons of stuff available.

[Galadorn]

Originally posted by assault

This kind of approach would work better in Champions than in D&D, IMHO. The whole "proof" deal is a lot more rigorous in modern legal systems than in the kind that operate in most fantasy worlds.

 

I think you mean medieval worlds? And yes the burden of proof was much less stringent. Character testimony was allowed - i.e. you are a priest so you're not lying, or you are a noble so you are not lying.

 

But even then, if a noble was requesting the investigation, he could overturn convictions based on any new evidence the players present. So there is some wiggle room there.

[Galadorn]

Originally posted by Solomon

The group I'm currently GMing includes a mid-power telepath, and he's showing little or no restraint in using his powers, often at the expense of overall gaming fun. Either he wises up, or he's going to have a radiation accident sooner or later!

 

I would just have a little chat with him, but sometimes radiation accidents are the only way to go.

[Galadorn]

Originally posted by tesuji

IMO it boils down to making the story and adventure and challenges fit the stars, the characters. The abilities they have will alter the nature of the drama you throw at them.

 

A good telepath will tend to make the "room of suspects" murder mystery whodunnit either not have much drama or definitely need additional spins... much in the same way a good flier will make the rickety-rope-bridge crossing over a deadly fall pretty much not as useful for drama.

 

So, the challenges wont focus as much on WHODUNNIT mysteries, but that still leaves tons of stuff available.

 

As far as spins, some good ideas, like red herrings, was given in this thread earlier. The question is, does the GM want to hype up his storyline to telepathy proof it? Of course if you telepathy proof every storyline, players won't use telepathy anymore.

 

That would make a good article for Digital Hero. Who wants to write an article on plot-twists for telepathic characters?