Area Effect trip and disarm

[WistfulD]

I am building a cyborg police officer to challenge my players in our sci-fi campaign. It's smugglers, not killers (the PCs) vs. lawful cops, so it's going to be both sides trying to win without killing. The Cop has a Power framework with a 65 Active Point pool, as well as martial arts focusing on a tonfa/baton. I'm trying to create a 8m cone of gravatic thrust (although I am open to modelling it however it works) that knocks people to the ground and their weapons out of their hands. How would people do this? I thought that martial arts are the best way to emulate disarming, although I don't know if you can make a maneuver with both trip and disarm. You also can apply advantages like AoE to martial arts, but again I'm not clear on how it works. Telekinesis or a high knockback blast can knock people down, but I don't know about disarming. Change environment is a possibility, but we do follow the rule of "use CE only when other powers cannot accomplish what you are trying to acheive."

 

Any suggestions?

[Christopher R Taylor]

You can build it with TK but its going to be a bit complicated: a knockdown plus a linked disarm (which would require fine control in my game, but its up to the GM).  Area effect TK will affect each target in the area individually, so it can affect them all.  The limitation of "only for x effect" should be smaller than usual, because you're getting two specific effects at once.

 

However, I've found that a small entangle works well for tripping up people (the special effect of entangling your legs is falling down - if they break free, they still have to get up (half phase) and if they are strong enough they ignore it and aren't knocked down.

[Lucius]

I'd buy an Area Effect Power like Telekinesis and then buy Martial Arts for which it is the "Weapon Element"

 

Lucius Alexander

 

Martial Arts Usable With Palindromedary

[WistfulD]

I'd buy an Area Effect Power like Telekinesis and then buy Martial Arts for which it is the "Weapon Element"

 

Lucius Alexander

 

Martial Arts Usable With Palindromedary

 

Okay, I've already said that I don't know how to implement this.

[Crusher Bob]

You could buy the naked advantage of AOE cone for your strength, plus how ever much DC the martial maneuver counts as. This would let you use your already existing martial maneuvers to disarm people.  Then, to trip them at the same time, maybe a linked blast, cone aoe, no range, only to cause knockdown?  That's alas, not the best use of points in a multipower, but maybe it can be made cheap enough to sit outside.

[bigdamnhero]

Trip and Disarm are both Standard Maneuvers, which means you can already use them with Telekinesis; no need to muddy the waters with Martial Arts unless you really want to.

 

Gravitic Trip:  Telekinesis (30 STR), Area Of Effect (8m Cone; +1/4) (56 Active Points); Limited Power Only to Trip and Disarm (-1), No Range (-1/2) [22 Real Cost; 6 END]

 

Doing Trip and Disarm at the same time is a Multiple Attack, so you roll each attack separately at a -2 OCV to both rolls. Given that you only have to hit a hex (DCV 3), this shouldn't be much of an issue, but you can always throw in a Penalty Skill Level or two to compensate.

 

One note: Trip doesn't give the target an opportunity to resist the effect - if the attack hits, they go down. That makes AOE Trip problematic, because it's so easy to hit a hex. If it were me, I'd use the rules for Shove instead, giving the targets a chance to resist, and if they fail they are knocked down instead of pushed back.

[Lucius]

Trip and Disarm are both Standard Maneuvers, which means you can already use them with Telekinesis; no need to muddy the waters with Martial Arts unless you really want to.

True, but

 

Doing Trip and Disarm at the same time is a Multiple Attack,

And Disarming Throw is a Martial Manuever that does both at once.

 

 

Okay, I've already said that I don't know how to implement this.

Step 1: Buy the Power.

 

Gravitic Thruster: (Total: 37 Active Cost, 10 Real Cost) Telekinesis (10 STR), Fine Manipulation, Area Of Effect (8m Cone; +1/4), Personal Immunity (+1/4) (37 Active Points); OAF (-1), No Range (-1/2), Cannot Use Targeting (-1/2), Limited Power Only usable with specific weapon settings ("Martial Arts)" (-1/2), 16 clips of 1 Continuing Fuel Charge lasting 5 Minutes (Recovers Under Limited Circumstances; -0) (Real Cost: 10)

 

Step 2: Buy the Martial Arts

 

Disarming Throw: 1/2 Phase, +0 OCV, +0 DCV, Grab Weapon, 15 STR to take weapon away; Target Falls Cost: 5

Grappling Throw: 1/2 Phase, +0 OCV, +2 DCV, Weapon +2 DC Strike; Target Falls; Must Follow Grab Cost: 3

Shove: 1/2 Phase, +0 OCV, +0 DCV, 25 STR to Shove Cost: 4

 

Step 3: Make Note for Martial Arts

 

"Default Weapon Element is Gravitic Thruster"

 

 

Lucius Alexander

 

Step 4 (optional): Create a palindromedary tagline

[bigdamnhero]

And Disarming Throw is a Martial Manuever that does both at once.

That certainly works. Just seems a tad expensive to sink 12 points into Martial Arts when all you really need is an MP Slot that works with Standard Maneuvers. I do agree you should have to buy Fine Manipulation - I forgot that in my example. Not sure why you'd need Personal Immunity tho: per 6e1 p320:

 

If a power with Area Of Effect (Cone) has the Limitation No Range, then its “target point” is immediately in front of the character (but he takes no damage from the attack).

[Lucius]

That certainly works. Just seems a tad expensive to sink 12 points into Martial Arts when all you really need is an MP Slot that works with Standard Maneuvers. I do agree you should have to buy Fine Manipulation - I forgot that in my example. Not sure why you'd need Personal Immunity tho: per 6e1 p320:

Does the character in question have a Multipower?

 

Should the Power in question be a weapon, or innate, or what?

 

There's a lot I still don't know about the context here.

 

But you are probably right that I shouldn't need Personal Immunity.

 

However, as I understand it, Multiple Attack both takes up a whole phase and halves your DCV. The latter I especially want to avoid.

 

Lucius Alexander

 

Implementing a palindromedary tagline

[bigdamnhero]

Does the character in question have a Multipower?

 

Should the Power in question be a weapon, or innate, or what?

The OP said the character had a Framework. I assumed it was an MP of built-in weapon systems, but that last is pure assumption on my part.

 

However, as I understand it, Multiple Attack both takes up a whole phase and halves your DCV. The latter I especially want to avoid.

That's true. In this context I might allow you to throw on a +1/4 Advantage to but it back down to 1/2 Phase, and add a couple PSLs to get the DCV back up to normal. But admittedly that starts to push the cost closer to your version. 

[WistfulD]

Does the character in question have a Multipower?

 

Should the Power in question be a weapon, or innate, or what?

 

There's a lot I still don't know about the context here.

 

But you are probably right that I shouldn't need Personal Immunity.

 

However, as I understand it, Multiple Attack both takes up a whole phase and halves your DCV. The latter I especially want to avoid.

 

Lucius Alexander

 

Implementing a palindromedary tagline

 

It is a multi-power (so no naked advantage, thanks though, Crusher Bob). 65 Active Point cap. Relevant limitations are cybernetics (effectively real weapon), can't be pushed, RSR, and restrainable (EMP). Key focus is versimilitude. My question at this point is, don't you need to apply the AoE to the martial art effects? I thought I saw rules where various effects of martial arts counted as certain point values for applying advantages.

 

Thanks, btw.

[Lucius]

The OP said the character had a Framework. I assumed it was an MP of built-in weapon systems, but that last is pure assumption on my part.

 

That's true. In this context I might allow you to throw on a +1/4 Advantage to but it back down to 1/2 Phase, and add a couple PSLs to get the DCV back up to normal. But admittedly that starts to push the cost closer to your version.

A couple?

 

In my experience trying to finagle a way around the drawbacks of Multiple Attack ends in a complex and expensive mess. But if you're going to create a custom Advantage to do away with the full phase (which sounds more expensive than just bying the Skill meant for that purpose) how about an Advantage to abolish the DCV penalty?

 

Lucius Alexander

 

Hey, the palindromedary has an idea....

[Lucius]

How does this look?

 

This is the Police! You will throw down your weapons and lie down!: (Total: 65 Active Cost, 2 Slot Cost, 7 END Cost)

Telekinesis (26 STR), Area Of Effect (8m Cone; +1/4) (49 Active Points); Only Works On Limited Types Of Objects Very Limited Group of Objects (Items being carried ; -1), No Range (-1/2), Limited Power Only to grab item and press it to the floor/ground/deck (-1/2), Requires A Roll (Skill roll; -1/2), Restrainable (-1/2), Affects Whole Object (-1/4), No Knockback (-1/4), Unified Power (-1/4), Cannot Be Used With Pushing ( -1/4) (Real Cost: 10)

plus

Flight 1m, Position Shift, Area Of Effect (8m Cone; +1/4), Usable As Attack (Defense is: Gravitic Powers, STR greater than 26) (+1 1/2), all targets standing within cone, Grantor pays the END whenever the power is used, Grantor can only grant the power to others, Recipient must be within Limited Range of the Grantor for power to be granted, Recipient must remain close to Grantor (16 Active Points); Linked (Telekinesis; Lesser Power can only be used when character uses greater Power at full value; -3/4), Limited Power Only to throw people to the floor (-1/2), Requires A Roll (Skill roll; -1/2), Restrainable (-1/2), Cannot Be Used With Pushing ( -1/4) (Real Cost: 4)

 

That avoids Martial Arts, fits the framework, and does the job by buying two effects and linking them.

 

Lucius Alexander

 

I told you the palindromedary had an idea

 

edit: Changed the name of the Power. Feel free to guess why.

[Christopher R Taylor]

That would work pretty well; usually I avoid movement powers UAA because, well munchkiny and breaky, but that would do the job pretty effectively.  Everyone down except the very strong and disarm almost anyone normal.

[WistfulD]

It would, and I agree with Chris. I think both Movement UAA and the trip martial art are kind of broken (although the trip one is more reasonable, as it means you are dedicating a full attack to simply making someone fall. If there's a way, I'd like 1) a single attack roll from the officer (even an AoE attack). If he hits with one effect, he hits with both. 2) two STR vs. STR rolls to see if each effect occurs. I'm not sure that Hero has that set up (which is reasonable, it is pretty specific).

 

I'm fine with the posibility of Martial Arts. This is a skilled officer using his predominant nonlethal effect. I'm still wondering about the confluence of martial arts and powers though. Is there anyone who can answer my question about applying AoE to the martial arts. Am I reading something wrong into the effect?

[Ndreare]

Putting modifiers on skills is a stop sign. As a GM I would consider it broken. The martial arts system always felt ad hoc to me as is and allows some cheep builds if you allow players to use them as powers with modifiers.

Really most of what martial arts do should have just been a multi power. Then all the math and abuse potentials would be clear and a GM could see it.

[Lucius]

It would, and I agree with Chris. I think both Movement UAA and the trip martial art are kind of broken (although the trip one is more reasonable, as it means you are dedicating a full attack to simply making someone fall. If there's a way, I'd like 1) a single attack roll from the officer (even an AoE attack). If he hits with one effect, he hits with both. 2) two STR vs. STR rolls to see if each effect occurs. I'm not sure that Hero has that set up (which is reasonable, it is pretty specific).

 

I'm fine with the posibility of Martial Arts. This is a skilled officer using his predominant nonlethal effect. I'm still wondering about the confluence of martial arts and powers though. Is there anyone who can answer my question about applying AoE to the martial arts. Am I reading something wrong into the effect?

My write up calls for a single attack roll for the Compound Power (one effect Linked to the other.) The Telekinetic Grab would have a STR vs STR roll (you have to wrest it away from the person holding it.) The Required Roll on the second could be redefined as a STR vs STR roll, or you could add that as another Limitation.

 

You can always ask Mr. Long if you want an official answer, but in my opinion, if the Default Weapon Element is a Power with given Advantages, the maneuvers don't need to be bought Advantaged. I've never heard someone argue that if a Martial Art is used with a weapon that has, Say, Armor Piercing, or +1 STUN Modifier, or Indirect, that you need to apply those Advantages to the maneuvers, and I've certainly never heard it argued that since the weapon is usually a Focus, the maneuvers should get a Focus Limitation!

 

Lucius Alexander

 

Palindromedary VS Alternate Defense

[WistfulD]

Aha! Well, I found out where I was getting the idea! P. 106 of the 6E Martial Arts guide. "Power Advantages for Martial Maneuvers." I'll have to read up on it again to see if it is relevant.

[WistfulD]

Okay, whatever this is, it's about making naked advantages, so I'm not concerned with it for the MP build (it does look like a nice alternative method). Martial arts effect STR normally, and telekinesis is effectively ranged strength (that we're taking the ranged out of, a little silly). So I guess as long as you have a weapon element for the power framework, the martial arts method works. Lucious's looks like it works, although I'd have to go back and look up UaA and position shift and a few things.